X

We can have this debate all day but what it boils down to is that every year kids do not make it to state that we as coaches and fans think are deserving. I think it makes it easier when we find an excuse like our region was tough or my classification is tougher than yours. To me these are just excuses that can be made instead of taking ownership. My 140 Johnson of Osawatomie was 27-14 and did not qualify. Throughout the year he beat 5 state qualifiers, 1 at 3a, 2 at 4a, 1 at 5a and 1 at 6a. He only had 2 loses on the season that were not to state qualifiers and those were both 4a kids. This does not tell me that 5a and 6a are stronger or weaker than 4a but that there are good wrestlers in every classification. I must say if you lose a second or first round match in a 4a region you better be ready to battle on Saturday because you will have 3 or 4 matches where anything can happen.

Good luck at state

What we need here is a guy who has wrestled 4A out West, coached 4A teams in leagues with 3As and 5As out East, and then returned to a 3A school out West. He might be able to give some clarity on the matter. I will get back to you all if I can come across a person like this. Until then, enjoy the state tournament this weekend.

I saw a cross-country skier in the Olympics from Jamaica. He was apparently the top qualifier from his country but he could not make it out of the quarter finals at the Olympics. There are many great skiers in the US who are watching from home, who could probably be Jamaican national champions if the wanted, but prefer to compete in the US rather than move. If their goal is to get to the Olympics, they should move to Jamaica. If their goal is to get on the podium, they shpould stay where they are at and get better. So one regional is tougher than the other, so what. So one class is easier to get through to state than another, so what. Either get better where you are at, or move to Jamaica and find out if it is as easy as you think.

It amazes me how much time grown men will spend measuring and re-measuring just to find out it never gets any longer..

Red Storm

Nicely stated.

Everyone knows that doesn't matter. It is how far you can pee that really matters.

That's why me and Kevin Conway use Extenze.

Extenze Commercial

From what I have seen and read about this argument can go on for days. There is studs in every class at the upper end of the brackets despite the class you are in. Anyone can be beaten on a given day so the argument bought who beat who during the year doesn't matter now. But which class tougher that is tough to say bout the upper end of kids at state, but after that I would say 4a has more depth of kids to place which makes for more competative matches on the backside of state.

On the regional subject. You can argue all day long if this kid was at this regional he would be going to state, but the fact of the matter is there is always goin to be a bracket at a regional that has more than 4 kids that deserve to go to state.

there is so much talk about which regionals is the hardest, free passes to state, and etc. why don't those wrestlers go to club and wrestle , the truth would come out then and those people who want to complain about easy regionals wouldn't be be able to cry about how unfair it was or the what if's, there would be proof-
Congratulations to those who did make it to state!

Redstorm,
I think I may be your guy (or close at least). I have coached in both ends of the state and have coached at the 6a, 4a, and 3-2-1a levels. I have had coaching experience at 3-2-1a; West: Oakley (which is where I grew up and competed in the 80's), and Leoti; 4a: Wamego (East); and 6a Junction City (East). I have had the privelege to coach state champions at every school except Wamego (but did have a runner-up), and numerous state qualifiers and placers. I point these facts out to illustrate that I am well acquainted with the state qualification process in large and small classes at well as in the West and the East. I have always felt that experience has given me a good grasp of the "toughness" of each class and I am more than happy to share. Please realize that I am not commenting on the overall quality of each class, just an experienced opinion on the relative difficulty of state qualification/placing.
What I have seen after years of coaching in various locations is that qualifying in the smaller classes (4, 3-2-1)is much more difficult, while the most outstanding indivdual wrestlers has definitely been in the larger classes. While at the smaller I have seen numerous state placers (and even a state champion or two)fail to qualify for the state tournament in subsequent years. The separation between the 1st and 2nd place wrestlers and the 5th and 6th place finishers is much closer in the smaller classes (many times they meet in the tournament and a 1 or 2 point nailbiter is common). As an example, one of my state champions from Leoti won in the semi's in sudden victory and the young man he defeated finished 6th. In the larger classes the separation between the top 2 and the bottom 2 placers can be great. As an example, while at Junction, we had a state champion who wrestled the 5th and 6th place finishers numerous times and literally never had one of those matches go past the 1 minute mark. That being said, the outstanding individuals I have seen in the larger classes (Zach Roberson, Tanner Gardner, Joe Johnson, Shawn Bunch, etc..)have been more outstanding than the exceptional individuals from the smaller classes.
Again, realize I am not passing judgement and there are exceptions to every rule. Classes go through their down times and times when they are tough as nails. Let me end by saying that regardless of class, I have been blessed to see outstanding wrestlers, coaches and people. They all deserve credit for their sacrifice and willingness to compete in the toughest/greatest sport on earth!! We are all biased in our own ways toward our own class/wrestlers and we should be...if we don't defend our own, who will? Best of luck to everyone this weekend, you are all special (regardless of class or location!)
~John Steiger

Mr. Steiger

Many good points by you. That was a great post, but you need to watch you say. "In the larger classes the separation between the top 2 and the bottom 2 placers can be great."...I totally agree, but others will jump down your throat and want you to tell all the kids who placed 5th and 6th that.

It was not my intention to ruffle any feathers or discredit state placers of any class. Anyone who places is legitimate and has accomplished a great thing. I just made a general statement (that has exceptions) based on my experience to address some of the questions here on the forum.

I can think of a couple of exceptional individuals from a 4A school out west who were pretty good at the D1 level.

. . .

No question!! Luedke and Murray were as good as it gets... just overall there has been more of that type of wrestler at the larger classes.

I know you know! I just had to give you a hard time!

To solve this I Propose a The 2010 Championship Duals The winners from each weight at each A have a dual to see who is the best. Wrestle each team round robin style. Why is starting something new so hard? maybe the powers that be dont want it to be proven that the small schools could beat the big ones.

I can't believe I just wasted this much time of my day reading this entire thread. However, all of you make great arguements and it was nice to get away from the ringing of the bells and screaming of the kids to listen to what all of you had to say.

My opinion: Wrestling will never be perfected. It's not where you start but where you end and good kids rise to the top in the end and the not so good ones fall. If you are good enough to win any of the 4 classes of wrestling you are pretty good. If you are good enough to place in any of the four classes in wrestling you are pretty good. If you are good enough to qualify for state in wrestling and that is your main goal then you are decent but need to get better.

I would take my team to any regional in this state in all classes and either:
1) get better
2) die trying
3) have the same results of recent past and take 13 wrestlers to state.
In all cases I won't complain we will just go where we are told to wrestle.

I think 321A has good wrestlers. I think 4A has good wrestlers. I think 5A has good Wrestlers. I think 6A has good wrestlers.

I think you could pair up the top 10 teams in each class and have a 40 team grand state tournament and do it for 3 weeks in a row and the outcome would be different every time. Teams evolve, fold, get better, get worse but all in all... we are all equal. State is state and wrestling is wrestling.

Good luck to all you gentlemen this week-end and I wish you prosperous medal counts!

I am not positive, but I think Redstorm was referring to himself.

Could it be?

I think we should investigate a 48, 64, 128 split. We should only include schools that actually have a team. Honestly, I would rather see a 50/50 split. Two divisions is a plenty for the size of your state.

Dear Will,
That's rich, you are killing me.
First you basically double dog dare me to throw out a name and when I do you say I "might find a few needles in a haystack but..."
I must tell you Will that if you keep this up I will not play with you for much longer because you do not play fair.

Once again it appears you did not get what I was trying to say from my post, you just tried to find something that you could contradict me on. What is the deal. Most of the comments you are making are not necessary.

I wish you would just focus on my main point which is it is inaccurate to say "that it is easier to get to state in 5A/6A". Very inaccurate and I have explained why. At best you could say "it is easier to get to state in 5A/6A if you get in one of the two weak regionals in 6A or one of the weaker regionals in 5A". At best you could say that. But I could just as easily say "that it is easier to get to state in 4A/3A if you are in one of the weaker regionals" because they exist there too. The bottom line is that it is easier to get to state in a "weak" regional than it is in a "tough" regional because they exist in every class. More appropriately it would be to say "the weak weight and/or weak regional".
Can we let that go?

Now to your comments.

I am glad to hear comment one. So the focus is on 4A which I agree, with my humble opinion, is much "tougher" overall than 3A.

Comment two is your best comment because you used the word overall and I maybe could agree with that.

Pertaining to comment three I never said that I was educated, just very experienced because I am a head coach by profession, not by hobby. And certainly not just a wrestler's dad.

Comment four, I am glad that you agree that the regionals are imbalanced but you do not see how that proves my point.

Comment five, the needle thing, what the.....?

Comment six, I know you already said that. Of course you told me, how could I forget? I am a science teacher so nothing really gets by me and I am very observant, that's what we do in science, remember. I am saying of the 8 3A/4A regionals at 135 they didn't even all have 15. They were 10, 13, 15, 13, 12, 15, 12, 11 respectively. So once again the whole monster 4A/3A bracket thing is overrated. And once again, that is not even the point as it is the quality that counts, not the quantity.

And comment seven, the Heights kid at 119 would definitely qualify in 4A if he was in the right bracket. I will admit that there are a couple that would/could have been too tough. Heights has a tough schedule though. I could find more but I have already spent too much time on this.


For Ricky and anyone else, all of the results/data/history lessons pertaining to "well back in...so and so from 3A/4A beat so and so from 5A/6A".... I already admitted that could be done and I could say the same thing vice versa and I did and could even more. In my career as a Kansas head coach, I could find some for every year.


For the last time, hopefully, what I am saying is it is very inaccurate to say "it is easier to get to state in 5A/6A". At best you could say "overall" or "in certain weights".

Let it go.