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 Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: dadofhwt]
#165927
03/22/10 12:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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Maybe the rules have changed since I posed the question in 2007. If they have, again, I am the idiot for not keeping up. If they have not, then what I am understanding is that a 5th place wrestler at a District tournament can be an alternate at State, while a 5th place wrestler at another District can't wrestle at State when there is a bye in the bracket due to a third District only fielding three wrestlers. If that is the case, I do not concur with the ruling.
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: dadofhwt]
#165930
03/22/10 01:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 321
Hossus
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Not trying to hijack the thread, but to me this is another reason we should do away with the sub-districts. Full brackets would be a better solution to this and you could get your 5-6 place alternates figured out without leaving anyone out. I think the object here is to get as many kids into State as possible. I can easily see one district having 8 kids in a group and the other 3 districts having only 4-5 between them in the same group. In my opinion they should all be going if your trying to make a true 16 man bracket. But not as the rules are in place now. At least that is how I am understanding all this. Something to think about.
Fortune assists the daring.
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: Hossus]
#165934
03/22/10 02:04 AM
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ReDPloyd
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Looked at the 2008 Districts, D1 did not wrestle for 5th/6th while the other three Districts did. Why? Again, it has nothing to do with my son this year since he wasn't in position to be in the top six in his bracket. I am looking for an answer to this question from someone more knowledgeable than I am. The other question is also out there, why can a 5th place wrestler from one District go to State as an alternate when another 5th place wrestler can't because his/her District has filled their quota when another District can't fill their four spots?
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: ReDPloyd]
#165935
03/22/10 02:08 AM
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Posts: 111
dadofhwt
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lee,
as i stated earlier in the 215 bracket a 5th place match was done in d1 i know it doesnt show it on the bracket but it deffinetly was done.
john mason
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: dadofhwt]
#165939
03/22/10 02:31 AM
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Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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John,
I believe you 100 percent. I know that STA is proud to have your son wrestling for them. With that said, he has to be a great young man. I am just trying to figure out what the rules for qualifying for Kids State are when it comes to a 5th place alternate versus a 5th place (sorry, but you met your quota for Districts) even though another District only has two wrestlers leaving two byes to determine the best in the state.
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: ReDPloyd]
#165941
03/22/10 02:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 8,595
usawks1
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In the past ... no district can take more than 4 qualifiers to the State Tournament! I am confident that is still the rule!
In District 1 the Standing Rules were changed years ago to eliminate wrestling for 5th ... except where it was known ahead of time ... that it was needed!
10 - 15 years ago D1 did wrestle for 5th and our tournaments were lasting well past 8 or 9 pm! It was felt this was not needed for the 2 or 3 kids that it might affect!
Are you making a POSITIVE difference in the life of kids?
Randy Hinderliter
USAW Kansas
KWCA Rep/Coaches Liaison
Ottawa University Volunteer Assistant
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: usawks1]
#165960
03/22/10 09:36 AM
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Posts: 8,443
RichardDSalyer
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In the past ... no district can take more than 4 qualifiers to the State Tournament! I am confident that is still the rule! Scroll to page 17. 6. The District State Director and his/her two Assistant State Directors will determine the number of qualifiers from Sub-District to District. Each District will have this responsibility. 7. There will be four (4) qualifiers from each District to State.
Richard D. Salyer
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: RichardDSalyer]
#165966
03/22/10 10:28 AM
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Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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Last year at Sub-districts, D1 South had a loaded 16-man bracket (15 wrestlers) while D1 North had four in the same age/weight. The fifth place wrestler from D1 South got to wrestle as an alternate at Districts since one of the four from D1 North didn't move on. He not only qualified for State, but went on to win two matches at State. Had this same wrestler finished 5th in Districts if he were allowed to wrestle 5th/6th, he would not have been able to wrestle at State even though there were byes from other Districts that did not send four. Again, I believe that this is the "State" Championship tournament and not just the "Only 4 Wrestlers from Each District" Championship tournament when some Districts can't field four spots.
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: ReDPloyd]
#165970
03/22/10 12:08 PM
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Posts: 211
Sudawn Bradley
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If alternates were allowed to fill in the spots for other Districts, how would you decide which alternate would get the nod? I can see wrestling for 5th and 6th to possibly fill a spot on your district's 4 available slots. The problem I see, for example, is if District 1 has 4 going, District 2 has 4 going plus wrestled for 5th and 6th. District 3 has 4 going plus wrestled for 5th and 6th. District 4 only has 3 going. How would you determine if the alternate from District 2 or 3 would be the one to fill the open spot on District 4?
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: sportsfan02]
#165977
03/22/10 12:27 PM
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Posts: 937
BLT
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The alternate has to be from that district or it is left open.
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: Sudawn Bradley]
#165985
03/22/10 01:08 PM
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Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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Sudawn,
You are correct, there would not be a way to determine who goes and who doesn't. I am sure that this has been thrown out there before, but one solution might be to scrap all the Sub-Districts, have four true District tournaments, take the best eight from each and wrestle two Sub-States (D1 vs D3, D2 vs D4, or whatever combination), then take the top eight from each Sub-State to wrestle the sixteen man bracket at State.
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: ictdad]
#165992
03/22/10 02:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 41
Roost
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THE QUESTION I WANT CLEARED UP IS HOW CAN YOU GO THROUGH SUBS AND DISTRICTS KNOWING YOU ARE NOT GOING TO STATE---I'M NOT TALKING HS--- THAT'S JUST WRONG
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: Roost]
#166082
03/22/10 08:57 PM
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Posts: 99
n7m13c99
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Maybe this goes back to another thread about redoing the districts. If your brackets are to full or one is not full. Maybe we should redo districts. But alot of you didn't like that idea either. And why if we all have 8 man brackets at district does it take D1 till 7 or 8 to get done if they wrestle for 5th or 6th. Not sure I understand that. If we did away with subs we would have to make district a two day tournament. Some brackets would be 32 man or bigger. At that point to many matches for one day. LOts of problems no matter what you do!!!
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: Sudawn Bradley]
#166111
03/23/10 12:09 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 147
GarateKids
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If alternates were allowed to fill in the spots for other Districts, how would you decide which alternate would get the nod? I can see wrestling for 5th and 6th to possibly fill a spot on your district's 4 available slots. The problem I see, for example, is if District 1 has 4 going, District 2 has 4 going plus wrestled for 5th and 6th. District 3 has 4 going plus wrestled for 5th and 6th. District 4 only has 3 going. How would you determine if the alternate from District 2 or 3 would be the one to fill the open spot on District 4? you could just take the alternate who scored more points at districts,, and if they scored the same, use subs as the tie breaker,, just an idea!
Carlos Garate
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: n7m13c99]
#166112
03/23/10 12:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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I still think that the State tournament should have the top sixteen wrestlers in the State going at it. Sure, you are going to have a wrestler or two have an off day or their competition has finally figured out a way to beat them, but when you see two 3-time State placers including one State runner up each (after qualifying for State the last five years) not going to State because their District was loaded, that is another story.
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: ReDPloyd]
#166113
03/23/10 12:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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As far as only allowing four wrestlers from each sub go, and the valid question as to how you figure out who from the other Districts would fill open spots from the others, there was a bracket in '07 that went like this D whatever - 2, D whatever - 3, D whatever - 3, and D whatever - 8. So three of the D whatevers send 8 kids to State, the other D - whatever sends their top four. Four byes and then one of the wrestlers doesn't show from the first three (4 byes and a scratch). There might have been an exception to the rule in this instance instead of having an 11 man bracket at State. I realize this doesn't happen a lot, but in this case there were some kids that were the in the top sixteen for their age/weight and didn't get the opportunity to wrestle State.
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: ReDPloyd]
#166115
03/23/10 12:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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As far as a wrestler going to Subs and Districts (knowing ahead of time they had no intention of going to State if they qualified), well that it just insane. I realize young kids often don't know better, and sometimes their parents know even less, or worse yet did know better but did it anyway, but the club coaches and their club officials allowing this to happen (if they knew, which very possibly they didn't)? Sure the kid that wrestled for 5th and won got to move on from Districts, but how about the kid that finished 5th at Subs?
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: ReDPloyd]
#166116
03/23/10 12:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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I still think that the State tournament should have the top sixteen wrestlers in the State going at it. Sure, you are going to have a wrestler or two have an off day or their competition has finally figured out a way to beat them, but when you see two 3-time State placers including one State runner up each (after qualifying for State the last five years) not going to State because their District was loaded, that is another story. Meanwhile there is another District that fielded a four man round robin where one wrestler goes 0-3 and another goes 1-2. I will concede that the top two from that bracket would have had an excellent shot at moving on to State regardless of their District bracket.
Lee Girard
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Re: Qualifilers NOT moving on to State
[Re: Hossus]
#166137
03/23/10 01:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,377
ReDPloyd
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Well, there is another option but it might not be terribly popular.
Do away with Subs & Districts altogether. Let everyone who wants to go to State go. If you end up in a 64 man bracket so be it. It's a 2 day tournament anyway, could even add a third day for HS. Just run it like a National Tournament and duke it out. You could seed it w/ track wrestling or just draw from a hat or do a seeding meeting. Either way not everyone would be happy about their placement most likely, but at least everyone gets to go if they want.
There are always options, but some are not as popular as others. In this case you eliminate all the nonsense about who goes and who don't. It would still be a tough tournament and one that you would def earn your stripes at if you had a big bracket.
Honestly, if Tulsa and OKC can do it w/ 2000+ kids we ought to be able to do it too. I like it! We could actually split up the competition age wise between two or three sites (take your pick of Wichita, Salina, Topeka, Hays and rotate them each year) to eliminate the overcrowding and to keep it down to a two day tournament. I would think that it would be possible to cut even the biggest brackets to sixteen at some point (and then the real State tournament begins). Cuts down on traveling three weekends (gas, hotel/motel, entry fees, etc.) and knocks two weeks from the season for those that think the season is too long. Logistically, it would probably be tough (the seeding meeting could last an entire day alone). Overall, I could see the benefits outweighing the obstacles to make it happen.
Lee Girard
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