I think what you will find is that as the season enters the qualifying tournaments particularly the matches affecting potential medals and advancement, that coaches from around the state tend to get way more vocal, argue a lot more, argue a lot longer, and generally act in ways that they wouldn't typically do during the regular season when the stakes aren't as high. This of course has a correlational effect to the number of ejections in post season.

Should officials take into consideration what is at stake? Sure, I think any good official recognizes that situations heat up as the season comes to an end. On the other hand there has to be a point at which it is no longer acceptable to continue a conversation that isn't going to change a call that was made on the mat (which is almost never). Basically if it gets to the point where an official issues a warning to a particular coach, the is really the verbal cue that the conversation is over, coaches go back to the corner, and the match continues on. Unfortunately in some situations that warning doesn't seem to be enough and a coach continues to try and extend the conversation either about the call itself or the warning they received, and the inevitable ejection comes.

To be perfectly honest, there exists a number of high school level coaches around the state who get away with approaches to the table in violation of the misconduct rule, basically because officials want and need their votes for postseason. This of course is a flaw in our post season assignment system, but my point really is that some people seem to think that officials are mean, nasty, and overbearing, when in fact if officials around the state truly assessed the penalties exactly by the book, you would be absolutely amazed at the number of team point deductions and possible coach ejections at the high school level that would occur year over year.

At the kids level officials tend to be even more lenient towards coaches. This happens basically because of the recognition that kids level coaches are universally unpaid volunteers, and as such may not in fact be as cognizant of the rules as their high school counterparts. Also factoring into play is the unsaid and unwritten notion that ejecting coaches and competitors from kids tournaments may lead to that club not attending said tournament in future years, and therefore much effort is made to avoid this situation if at all possible.



I'll quote for you a passage directly out of the KSHSAA Sportsmanship manual



In other words, by making the action you described, or by verbally or physically counting back points to an official, yelling things like "make the top guy work" or any number of other such acts, that person has ceased to be a coach, and has now decided to assign himself the responsibilities of the official which is clearly not his role. Generally speaking, most officials will ignore or brush this off as just spirited or excited coaching. In some cases it clearly goes beyond that.

I don't think there is a coach in the state that would really appreciate it if an official decided during the course of a match to take the whistle out of his hand or mouth, look directly at the opposite competitor of that coaches wrestler, and tell him what move to do next like "Hey red, shoot a double leg, good now run a half nelson" In other words, coaches wouldn't like it if officials were coaching up the wrestlers, so why in the world would you think its okay for a coach to tell an official how to officiate?

Anyway I apologize for the long winded rant, but sometimes things need to be said, and the berating of Kansas officials on this site really gets annoying and old as the season wears on, particularly when most of it is generally unwarranted.

What about when it is warranted? Like in this instance.

The problem is that the tournaments don't always follow the rules and have a grievance committee like they are supposed to, that allows some of these officials to over react like this.

Well knowing the official who is the subject of this topic, I think the word overzealous is completely off base. In fact said official is one the good ones in his area that I have recommended for kids tournaments many times over the years. He knows his stuff and generally isn't subject to rash decisions and fly the by the seat of his pants ejections. As a matter of fact this may have been the first ejection he has given in a several years.

I also have complete faith in Mark Stanley and anyone whom he would select to be part of his committee which includes Denny Hensley who has not only officiated countless National tournaments and Kansas Kids State tournaments, but will also be the head official of this years State tournament. If these guys felt the the ejection was warranted, then I would say there is a truly good chance that things may not have been as innocent as they were portrayed to be here on this forum. This is part of the reason why the bickering that goes on about officiating on this forum is tiresome, because almost no one gets the whole story and no one is privy to the context that surrounds a particular situation

Wow
Then wouldn't it be funny to see video of these refs actions put on a site like youtube and then links posted on here. You can do the samething for coaches. I don't care. Over the last year or so I here is what I have seen
Refs put their hands on coaches or wrestlers. Grabbing of the arm or finger pointing to the chest.
Refs advising a wrestler during a match.
The smell of alcohol on a ref.
Numerous counts of profanity to coaches and even table workers.
Have I seen coaches do the exact same thing...
Well all except about two of them.
But my point is there is a checks and balances system for a coach or a wrestlers behavior.
Where is that for same system for a ref.
When a ref behaves like this what action can be taken from our end.
I did hear of one tournament this year where a ref was asked to leave but I don't know for sure.
I know everyone can get passionate even a ref but couldn't it be argued that they should be held to an even higher standard then a coach or a wrestler.
I'm not saying all refs are bad and I understand a guy can have a bad weekend.
But shouldn't there be some sort of checks and balances system or a way to hold these people to a standard and be able to provide HONEST feedback to them without the fear of not being able to coach your team the following week cause a ref is a little to pridefull to admit he made a mistake.

Well then that settles it. wrestlingspectat. If you know the guy then the coach must be in the wrong. Please forgive me I was not aware that you knew the official which of course to be repetative means Cody was wrong and should have been ejected. Now I get it. By the way, who are you??

I see what you mean here and I don't completely agree with you, but that is part of coaching in every sport. The coach has to at some point have some interaction with the ref. Now how he does it will be the difference of its effectiveness.

Can you honestly say in a scramble you have never stood up and said thats 2 thats 2. I don't think anyone that has ever sat at matside can answer no to that question.

I don't think any coach tries to assume the role of the ref, they are just trying to help the kids get what point might be owed to them.

I had one match this weekend a kid had another pinned three different times, stacked completely. The ref was slow to get in position and although counted near fall but no pin was awarded. I didn't go goofy and yell and I didn't even challenge the ref, but I did go to the 2 refs taking a break at that same mat and asked them what they saw just to make sure I wasn't being to biased. They both said wow that kid was pinned three different times. I asked them to go talk to the young official to help coach him through being in the right position and they looked at me like I was crazy and didn't do anything.

Watching the same mat later that day almost the exact same thing happened with the same ref. That coach did go crazy and a big battle at the table kicked off. I heard the ref say "every call I make is the right call because I made and that is it" I just laughed and walked on.

I witnessed the whole thing and Cody Reynolds didnt do a damn thing or raise his voice at all!If anything the ref threatened Cody by raising his fist when he gave him the warning.

I'll try to answer these in the order received.



I of all people realize there are some officials across the state that do not measure up to the standards which are asked and required of them in their position. The NFHS, KSHSAA, and even USAWKS are very clear about every issue that encompasses the officials in this state. To be perfectly honest is bothers me very much even to see an official not wearing the correct uniform. I've seen guys out there with wind pants on, wrestling shoes of neon green to bleach white color, and everything in between. It is really not in my capacity to tell these guys that they do not conform to the rules set forth for them.

The list which you provided to me, does not come as a shock to me at all. If an issue comes up that you feel strongly about concerning an official comes up then you should perhaps take it upon yourself to bring the matter to the attention of the people whom it is relevant. At a kids tournament, that would be the tournament director and then to the State, at a high school tournament, that would be the tournament director or the athletic direction, and if no joy there, then the next step up is KSHSAA. Serious issues like alcohol use, tobacco use, and physical assault are things that really should be brought to attention, and yet for some reason they are not, and where does the responsibility for that lay? Answer: on the people who choose to stay silent about it.

Understand that the serious issues I was talking about are not the same as just generally being upset at a call that an official made and then coming here to blast them. If an official blatently disregards the standards which they are expected to be held to then by all means, bring it up and make it known, if an official makes a call on that mat that is questionable, this really shouldn't be the place to come and whine about it.



Now I did not say that Cody should have been ejected because I myself was not standing there listening to the conversation. What I did say was that he was ejected, and the committee which was composed of some highly respected individuals both from the officiating perspective and the direction of tournaments perspective, felt strongly enough to agree with it, I would say that is a good indication that what did happen was warranted. I doubt very much that this group of individuals are going to stake their reputation on an issue like this and then go in the back and pop a bottle of champagne while bragging about how they are infallible. Now as far as who I am, let's just say that you know me quite well.



As I stated, a coach just being excited and being caught in the moment yelling out things like "back points" and "watch the knee", is commonplace and frankly is harmless, and understood. What we are talking about however is those that take it upon themselves to direct the official in his duties. Utterances like "you gotta make X wrestler work" or "he has to take him back down to the mat" aren't really in the same realm. Those types of statements are directed solely at the official and not meant for advocation. Certainly you can understand the difference.



LOL, Lord forbid if an official actually gives the correct signal for a coach misconduct (Arm raised 90 degrees to the body with a closed fist in in fact the correct signal for coach misconduct aka warning). As for him not doing anything wrong... if he was questioning a judgment call, then that would be clue #1 that he was in fact doing something wrong, #2 would be to continue a conversation after a misconduct warning is given.

Look it's fairly simple. There are new officials, bad officials, mediocre officials, ok officials, good officials, great officials, and outstanding officials. I tend to believe that there tend to be more officials on the okay to great side here in Kansas than there are on the bad and mediocre side. The job of a wrestling official is far more challenging than most people who've never done it could understand. Wrestling doesn't have a replay system and it really wouldn't help even if it did, because the judgment aspect of wrestling is somewhat unique compared to most other sports. The definitions of a variety of situations simply cannot be put down in black and white like they can on other sports. The nature of the judgment lends itself to situations where one person sees something one way and another person sees it completely opposite.

I stand by my statement which is that this forum should not be the place to come and bag on officials for calls they make which are in most cases completely in line with and according the rules set forth. As far as a checks and balance system is concerned, it's actually pretty simple, if an official doesn't measure up the standards expected of them, then the blame for having him at a tournament falls #1 On the coaches whom through their actions have either run off the good ones from the kids level into high school where they don't have to deal with this, or #2 The person in charge of getting and hiring the officials for their tournament. Your checks and balances come from your active feedback to tournament directors saying "Could you please try to get (insert name here) to come work this tournament"

The one last thing I will tell you is that kids tournament directors have a heck of a time finding well qualified officials to do kids work anymore. Ask yourself why this might be the case? I'll give you a hint: many officials don't want to put up with the abuse they take from kids level coaches, have their name dragged through the mud on this website, or have videos of them showing up on Youtube. Be thankful the group of officials who still do come out week after week to do this, because the $125-$150 most kids officials get paid for a weekend can't really make up for that, those still out there do it for the love of the sport just like the coaches, competitors, and fans.

... End Novel

Who the hell is wrestling testicle anyway!!I wanna word with him Saturday.

So you are saying if you kids that you are coaching get taken down and gets a 2 on 1 put on him and get the back leg hooked and the other kid sits on your ankle for a full period with no warning for stalling being issued, then reverses you and does the same. You pick down and half way through the third he finally gets a warning for riding your kid the same way and then time runs out.

You wouldn't say one word about him stalling to the ref?

I don't buy it.

And the comeback saying the ref would take care of it holds no weight. There is only about 25% of the refs that would handle that correctly. The rest just issue warnings late in the third.

everyone who thinks we have bad refs in ks needs to take the test, and referee next year. everyone on here post your name, i will keep a list and sign you all up next year. i agree with most of you we need a grading system. but the main thing i think everyone is missing here is don't argue after a warning. right or wrong i don't care you can't fix the damage done. you can learn 1 thing for this weekend, DON'T ARGUE AFTER A WARNING!!! after this weekend, step up work as a ref, and help implement a grading system. by some of the comments on here i can tell that cody's group of friends would be way more at fault, of siding with a good ol' boy, than the committee accused.

nice language, nice maturity, come on people.

referees:i was told something this year by a long time ref: he tells referees when he is head ref. "sell your calls, give an explanation, and sell it" "talk respectful, if you want respect, you had better give it" " if you do those two things, and a coach is out of line, give 1 warning, then boot" it's pretty straight forward stuff.

coaches: i was told this a long time ago by an old coach we all know: " don't argue a judgement call, first reason is you can't, it's like arguing balls and strikes in baseball, automatic ejection, second reason is, IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD." " if you want to talk to the referee, invite him to the table and calmly ask him to explain the rule on the situation, always be respectful." pretty straight forward stuff.

BE RESPECTFUL.

Wasn't he a Greek wrestling god?

He was nutz about wrestling....

Plum giddy. He always had a ball when he was out wrestling on the stacked hay (no mats back in those days).

I have told many people, including standingup at the state body meeting, and asked this question: "Why can't officials have names on their shirts, instead of numbers?"

I can picture a dozen GOOD officials, and I don't have any idea what their name is. And I have NEVER taken the time to write down his number and look up his name. I can also picture 5 or 6 officials that I think are complete idiots, but have never taken the time to look them up either. There are some that I know names of, on both sides of the fence, but there are more that I do NOT know, than those that I do know.


I just don't think we are asking too much for them to put names on their shirts.

This would make it much easier on coaches to make knowledgeable recommendations for state officials.

just ask, most will tell you who they are.

Actually the by-laws were amended this year to strike out language saying that Kids officials should wear numbers on their shirts. This was done for a variety of reasons.

#1. Many officials weren't wearing the numbers to begin with, particularly the longer tenured officials who tended to do more middle and high school work than kids, and he didn't want to maintain several different shirts.

#2. Many coaches never took the time to use the numbers UNLESS they had a gripe about an official which not surprisingly most often came from a judgment call situation they witnessed.

There are other reasons, but the point was they simply weren't needed, and I don't believe names on the shirt really are either.

It seems pretty straight forward to me, that if a coach would like to know what an officials name is, they could simply ask said official in a polite manner, and I'm reasonably sure that most of them would freely give it.

More than that, perhaps if people were truly serious about getting the best officials they could both for their own tournaments and the post season tournaments, that they should take the time to approach the officials that they truly believe are doing a good job and have a conversation with them, and get there name. I promise you most officials won't bite you, they are people and fans of wrestling just like you. I know from personal experience that there are few things more satisfying to officials than to have a complete stranger come up to them and thank them or complement them on the job they are doing. I also know that many officials are more than happy to discuss rules and concerns that you may have, if they are in a position to do so, such as they are off the mat on break.

How many coaches have actually read the rule book from the NFHS, I mean Kansas Kid's adopted the rule book as their rules with a few modifications. It clearly states in the book what coaches misconduct is...

Rule 5, Section 5 "Coach Misconduct"
Art. 1 . . . Coach Misconduct occurs when a coach improperly questions the referee.
Art. 2 . . . When a coach requests a conference with the referee regarding a possible misapplication of a rule, and it is determined there was no misapplication or when, during a conference, the coach questions the judgment of the referee, coach misconduct shall be called. The coach misconduct penalty shall always be charged to the head coach.
Art. 3 . . . Coach misconduct results in the following:
a. First offense - warning;
b. Second offense - deduct one team point;
c. Third offense - deduct two team points and removal of the head coach for the remainder of the day. The penalty sequence starts anew each day. (See penalty chart)

"Improperly" is underlined as it is underlined in the rule book. I know it's everyone's favorite term, but "improperly" is also a judgment call as to if it was properly or not for the reason it was stopped, how the conference was asked for (or wasn't), or probably even the way (demeanor) it was asked could be construed differently.

Now for the kid's modification on ejections...
Rule 8 An official ejection will follow an official warning, except in the case of flagrant misconduct. Anyone officially ejected from a tournament must leave the building, and will not be allowed to participate in and/or attend any other sanctioned event or activity. This sanction shall be effective for:
1st occurrence – 8 days
2nd occurrence – 24 days
3rd occurrence – one calendar year from date of ejection

I don't know about you, but I am more worried about getting my tail to the next match I am coaching, rather than asking a ref who he is. Especially one that I had a disagreement with. What do you think he is thinking? Wanting to look up his address so I can teepee his house? You know what happens when you tell a ref you don't like him.

"Hey ref that I just debated why it took you 3 seconds to get down on the mat and start the backpoints count, would you mind me asking your name, I'd like to send you a Christmas card"

I'll take it a step further. Make coaches where name badges also. If the refs would like to know who we are, that is fine with me.