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 Re: ref's at state
[Re: dmitchell]
#167015
03/30/10 01:02 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 536
Lucas Baker
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 536 |
Does the ref have to wave his hand when counting back points?
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: dmitchell]
#167016
03/30/10 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 536
Lucas Baker
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Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 536 |
Spectat if they gave out the Offical Called To The Table The Most Award, he would of won that too.
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: dmitchell]
#167035
03/30/10 01:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 138
wrestlingspectat
Member
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Member
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 138 |
Two things about Kansas Officials:
1.) All officials have an obligation to go to the table if a coach calls you over THE RIGHT WAY (i.e. walks quietly to the table, raises his hand, and waits quietly). You cannot make an assumption about why the coach is calling you to the table. Statements like "You can't question my judgement," and "You better make sure you know what you're calling me to the table for." are arrogant, unprofessional, and have no place in our sport. This came from one of the other "Officials of Year" The Tournament Director witnessed this unprofessional conduct and still allowed this person to receive such an award. I was given two warnings for telling a ref that he was arrogant and that he didn't have to be a jerk about my calling him to the table the right way. Again, the tournament director watched this happen and stood by the officials conduct. Where does a coach go when he does it right and still gets the shaft?
2.) The out of bounds is a "guideline" it is not a rescue line for an official who doesn't want to make a tough call. All too often I have watched officials stop action that would result in scores simply because kids get close to out of bounds. Good officials stop the action, Great officials stand their ground wait to see what unfolds, then makes an intelligent decision. May I ask what reason you had for calling that official over to the table? And before you answer that question, if your answer is going to be that "I wanted an explanation of a call" than you were already in the wrong for calling that official to the table. Unless you were checking on the score of the match or a misapplication of a rule occurred i.e a 3 point near fall was awarded for a 2 second count, then there really is not other reason to be at the table. Now if an official has just made a close judgment call, and the next thing he sees is a coach going up to the table, what would you guess that nearly everyone in the building would be thinking his reason for doing so is? In either case maybe the official was just trying to save you from actually getting a warning by encouraging you to not go to the table for what was obviously going to be a situation of you questioning a call he made. Now as far as the out of bounds are concerned, if you are truly going to criticize an official for stopping a match that he believes might endanger the safety of the wrestlers, then you are not as intelligent as you really think you are. Perhaps the next time a situation is reverse and your wrestler gets his head run into a table, or bounced off an unsafe portion of a non wrestling surface you'll change your mind.
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: wrestlingspectat]
#167054
03/30/10 03:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,538
Bronco Wrestler
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,538 |
Also if the wrestlers are on the edge of the mat (not out of bounds yet) and nothing is really happening (maybe in deep on a single leg or high crotch) the official has the authority to stop the match and bring them back to the center to wrestle if they are not improving position.
Just because he's "about" to score on the edge doesn't necessarily translate to he's "going" to score.
Alex R. Ryan
KSHSAA Official #15616
USAWKS Official #707
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: AppFan]
#167066
03/30/10 03:57 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 53
dmctc5
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 53 |
Cannot comment on any ref's except the ones I watched consistantly on Mat 13 and 14, H.S. mats and in my opinon, they were quite poor. If you're to old or slow to be bothered to get down on the mat or run to position to call pins then it's time to retire. One didn't even seem to know that the circle line was out of bounds at times. Saw 2 matches with the same ref where wrestlers were nearly on the concrete when he decided they were now out of bounds. The other thing was the # of Injuries seemed mighty high. I realize wrestling can be a little dangerous but if refs are doing their jobs most injuries can be avoided. 4A in Salina spoils us I guess. Plenty of room, good refs, and time keepers. They also seemed to have some problems. TOO MUCH texting going on I fear.
Last edited by dmctc5; 03/30/10 03:59 AM.
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: wrestlingspectat]
#167070
03/30/10 04:08 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10
dmitchell
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10 |
I went to the table to understand the language of "stalling" as it relates to top and bottom man in the rule book. I went to agree with his call on my kid, but wanted to fully understand what obligation the bottom man has to advance his position according to how he understands the rule book.
I went to the table fully knowing I would likely walk away with that warning. My point is simply this; come to the table, hear my question or complaint, and give me my warning if I deserve one. I never got to ask my question because he didn't even give me the chance. If you had witnessed the incident on the mat you might feel differently if it happened to you.
As far as the out of bounds thing. That was refering to those who officiated on a full mat (High School Division & 14's) There was more than enough room to let wrestling continue on the edge. The smaller kids absolutely not, but at State they had awesome mats and plenty of landing area to see some great things happen on the edge of the mat. So many situations let the defensive wrestler off the hook at the edge. Not my kids specifically, but just in general!! I would never want to jeopardize a childs safety, but if the room is there (which it was on mats 10-14) let the kids perform great acts of wrestling! We live for those moments as wrestlers, coaches and spectators alike.
Last edited by dmitchell; 03/30/10 04:20 AM. Reason: mispelled wresters!
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: Bronco Wrestler]
#167074
03/30/10 04:16 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10
dmitchell
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10 |
I totally agree with you, but I'm not talking about those static situations with little movement. I'm talking about the one's where things are happening right now and fast. There are some ref's who will stand in and let it develop, but majority will blow it dead. Also understand I'm talking about full mat situations with large landing areas, not the lego blocks we provide our smaller kids.
I officiated for a number of years before switching to coaching. I still pick up the occaisional tourney here and there. So I understand your comment, however Kansas could stand to loosen the reigns on the edge of the mat.
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: dmitchell]
#167084
03/30/10 05:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 138
wrestlingspectat
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 138 |
I went to the table to understand the language of "stalling" as it relates to top and bottom man in the rule book. I went to agree with his call on my kid, but wanted to fully understand what obligation the bottom man has to advance his position according to how he understands the rule book.
I went to the table fully knowing I would likely walk away with that warning. My point is simply this; come to the table, hear my question or complaint, and give me my warning if I deserve one. I never got to ask my question because he didn't even give me the chance. If you had witnessed the incident on the mat you might feel differently if it happened to you.
As far as the out of bounds thing. That was refering to those who officiated on a full mat (High School Division & 14's) There was more than enough room to let wrestling continue on the edge. The smaller kids absolutely not, but at State they had awesome mats and plenty of landing area to see some great things happen on the edge of the mat. So many situations let the defensive wrestler off the hook at the edge. Not my kids specifically, but just in general!! I would never want to jeopardize a childs safety, but if the room is there (which it was on mats 10-14) let the kids perform great acts of wrestling! We live for those moments as wrestlers, coaches and spectators alike.
While I understand your situation, I think that you would have been better served in waiting until the match was over and when that particular official was off the mat to ask him your questions. I think most referees would be more than willing to explain a call or their interpretation of a rule off the mat and away from a heat of the moment situation.
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: BLT]
#167202
03/30/10 09:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,143
HEADUP
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Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,143 |
App Fan
Rule 6-6-3.."When the timekeeper makes an error or the clock fails to start when the referee indicates time is to begin, the referee is to make a judgment concerning the amount of time that should have been consumed. The referee will adjust the clock accordingly."
So according to this any action that took place in the allowed time of the refs judgement should stand.
The ref and the head ref both blew this call.
there was no control, no takedown in that match. the correct call was made. all coaches agreed, at the time of the match. NO CONTROL??? I disagree! Well I guess thats why they call it a judgement call!! The coaches did not agree! They realized it was a losing battle and just tried to compromise and get as much time back on the clock as possible. Either way the action should not of been stopped! This same topic is discussed on the Ask Ref part of the HS fourm! the ask the ref topic doesn't apply here. there was no control, thus no points awarded. there was an attempt, but both wrestlers were on a hip, #1 w/a head lock/ #2 w/ an arm over the back, near fall criteria had not been met. wrestler #2 actually had a leg over #1. no control, certainly a good attempt, but control had not been established when the whistle blew. it would have been the wrong call to award points just because a takedown MIGHT have happened in the next 14 seconds. wrestler #1 might have lost his grip, also. it's just unfortunate! whether the coaches agreed or not, you are right they had no leg to stand on, so they did the right thing. as did we, we agreed to 14 seconds from the start of the controversy. i hate to see anything like this happen, even when it turns out in our favor. i wish your wrestler the best of luck in the future, and hope he doesn't dwell on something like this. tell him to put it behind him, and work hard. he is a great wrestler, and should be proud. i know alot of kids who would trade him places in a heart beat.
"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: HEADUP]
#167281
03/31/10 01:19 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 28
AppFan
Junior Member
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Junior Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 28 |
Thanks he's over it and just want to get his last tourney out of the way and get to baseball.
It is just a game,
I asked him if he had fun at Sate and he said yea, so I am good with it.
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Re: ref's at state
[Re: AppFan]
#167348
03/31/10 09:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 99
n7m13c99
OP
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OP
Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 99 |
Still goes back to calling things the same way all year long in every district.
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