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Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: BLT] #167450 04/01/10 07:00 PM
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Beeson Offline
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14 wrestling surfaces sounds like alot of 1/4 mats for the 6,8,10 and some 12.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: bockman] #167451 04/01/10 07:01 PM
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there are alot of things to think about on the series. beeson has been around along time and has some good arguments but there are also some good arguments as to why to get this started. ask the kid if he will wrestle harder for a ribbon, a 2 inch medal or a belt. if you can get your kid to wrestle his hardest isnt that what makes him better. then if he is involved in a series competition dont you think he will wrestle that much harder. though it might not if the kid knows he isnt in the running for the points. there are alot of ins and outs. good discussion though.


Scott Bockover
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: BLT] #167452 04/01/10 07:03 PM
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sportsfan02 Offline
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How many of you proposing this series have run a tournament? How many even belong to a club that hosts a tournament?


Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: sportsfan02] #167453 04/01/10 07:13 PM
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I agree with chad. These tournaments have already outgrown themselves.I remember 25 years ago when most the metals were no bigger than a quarter, and greatbend was the place to go for the big metal it was the size of a 50 cent piece! The only reason i went to greatbend was for that big metal. As far as all american it kinda takes away from getting that when you go to folkstyle nationals in Iowa, when you have kids getting it at brute by just showing up cause you have three in your bracket.There's plenty of chances to win the tripple crown, trinity award, ect. But the way it is now you have to earn it, i think it would take away from the kids that earn it the hard way . It would be way to easier to win it by winning three invitationals and would take away the prestige from the real triple crown, trinity ect. Just my thoughts.

Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: Mike Dipman] #167455 04/01/10 07:29 PM
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Nedly Offline
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I have enjoyed reading this thread.

3 years ago I made a proposal to the kids council on having this tournament challenge for the state of kansas to promote folkstyle and give something back to the kids. I had little support for this idea.

I still like the idea and think can work here in Kansas for us, but it has to include all 4 districts and be set up that we are are making our families drive all over the state and spend dollars that we do not have.

I am reading so please keep your ideas coming.

Ned

Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: Nedly] #167457 04/01/10 07:53 PM
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You can have multiple tournaments as part of your series. Even more then one on the same weekend. You can give points and bonus points depending on bracket size.

On an OPEN TOURNAMENT with a split format session you can run
6 8 and 12 year olds in the morning.
One Full Mat
Six quarter mats
Seven half mats
Start turning quarter mats into halfs and moving matches as soon as you can.

Afternoon session you run three full mats and six half mats.

Everyone headed home by 5 or 6pm
A lot of clubs don't run that many mats cause they can't handle the table workers and other staff.
But by combining small tournament it a win win win for EVERYONE.

Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: BLT] #167461 04/01/10 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: BLT
You can have multiple tournaments as part of your series. Even more then one on the same weekend. You can give points and bonus points depending on bracket size.


You can't have more than one on the same weekend. That no longer makes it a series. People will complain that the one in this District is tougher than the one in that District, and they are worth the same. Bracket size does not necessarily mean that the bracket was tougher. Most will just go where the bonus points are being rewarded. To many human factors come into play with more than one series tournament.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: BLT] #167462 04/01/10 08:45 PM
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Beeson Offline
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Originally Posted By: BLT
On an OPEN TOURNAMENT with a split format session you can run
6 8 and 12 year olds in the morning.
One Full Mat
Six quarter mats
Seven half mats


Afternoon session you run three full mats and six half mats.


Six mats would be hard to put in most High Schools and still be within USA regulations concerning safety mats.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: Beeson] #167464 04/01/10 08:54 PM
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it's a great idea, but needs all of us to come up with the right stuff.

beeson and sportsfan and others who seem like they are opposing the idea are actually the best resources here. the people who are seeing the issues before they arise, are the people who need to be on the correction of errors committee.

the rest of you need to start coming up with a communication chain and put in some serious thought to a few questions.
who will host/ who want to vs who can pull it off
who has the room- not one high school in ks- few colleges
who has the hotel space- only the big cities
who will be the district scheduling committee
what awards/ points will be given
it goes on and on, and if we want it to happen need to keep asking the tough questions and finding answers (probably the hardest part)

i would love to see it happen and would be glad to help, let me know when the commitees are being formed.


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: HEADUP] #167465 04/01/10 09:02 PM
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ok guys lets get away from the way things used to be. nothing is the way it used to be. i just heard someone say i went to greatbend for that medal. well its not any different these days but the awards are just that much nicer. the kids wrestle their butts of to get those. thats what we all want. nothing really has to change to run a series except we need to find out what tournaments will be those that keep track of those series points. nobody has to change anything else about their tournament. the one thing that may change is rather than 20 dollars it might be 25 or instead of 15 maybe 20. i dont think we need to give away the farmhouse for it. maybe a nice jacket for each kid would be ok and it doesnt have to be called the triple crown. it could be called the kansas series champion. all i am trying to do is give the kids more incentive to wrestle their best at every tournament. wrestling 2 matches vs. the same kids is not getting them there. my son wrestled 5 tournaments this year that he only got 2 matches. sorry if this pisses off some of those smaller tournaments but i would rather pay 5 dollars extra and wrestle 4-6 good matches than wrestle 2.


Scott Bockover
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: bockman] #167471 04/01/10 09:41 PM
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The OK series tournaments only take $1.00 per entry and they have it set up where you can see who enters the tournaments as they become available and also list the flyers etc. So if you want to know who's going for whatever reason you can look it up to make that choice. I like that aspect prob the most. You can decide if that one is right for you or if you want to do something else that weekend. You can still use track wrestling or whatever system you want so that shouldn't change anything. Like I said before, you are not changing anything except having a series champ at the end of the season who is hopefully a more rounded wrestler for it. They do hoodies and t-shirts with Div Placers listed on the back, which is not really a bling item but is pretty nice. They also open it up to all comers so that out of state kids can be involved as well. They also do a state tourney series just like we do. So I really can't see why we aren't clever enough to do it as well.


Fortune assists the daring.
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: dagwood] #167494 04/02/10 01:47 AM
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Excuse me if you don;t like all american how about All Kansas then who cares what you call it, if the kids are in the top 6 in points then they have accomplished something. oh yes I forgot there are a few on here that think if you don't win it all you have not accomplished anything.

Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: 890] #167499 04/02/10 04:08 AM
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Top 6 did not accomplish anything unless it was at State.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: Beeson] #167507 04/02/10 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted By: Beeson
Top 6 did not accomplish anything unless it was at State.


no one is asking you to change your coaching philosophy chad. i got into some trouble for being a ha, this year too. we agree on some things about winning championships, but there is no real harm, let it happen.

we all know that there should only be one person leaving state happy, the champion. this won't take away from that at all. it will simply do as bockover said (can't believe i agree with him), make some tournaments a little tougher. it won't make every bracket tougher, but it will help some.

i coach a group of kids who have NEVER wrestled at maize, this year they went and won some belts. i was upset at first because they were trophy hunting, i made my position known. then i saw the brackets and the kids that came from all over, and changed my stance. i am proud for their accomplishments, and they know that. i still don't care for the belts, but i am a grown man, with a shoe box full of medals.

when i showed those medals to my 5 year old he loved it. "WOW DADDY THOSE ARE COOL YOU MUST HAVE BEEN GOOD!!" when my nephew showed him the belt "WOW BRANDON THAT BELT IS AWESOME, YOU ARE THE BEST!!" i won't forget that, and will remind him in a few years that only one tournament really matters, but for now, it is what it is. to be the best you have to beat the best, there is always that 1 in 100 chance, so go find the best, and give him your best.


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: HEADUP] #167509 04/02/10 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted By: HEADUP

but there is no real harm, let it happen.

THAT is the point! Yes there is harm, to the other tournaments. It will be a slow death of all but one tournament in this state per weekend, which is pretty much how Oklahoma operates the last I looked. That only lessens the opportunities for clubs and in the end result, the individual wrestlers. Please people, NEVER try to copy what they do in Oklahoma. Each state is different and has different demographics.
I ask again, how many of you that are supporting this idea, have ever run a tournament or even belong to clubs that host tournaments?
This was a bad idea when it was first suggested a few years ago and is just as bad now. Luckily the state body had the good sense to see how it would adversely effect our sport.


Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: sportsfan02] #167510 04/02/10 11:34 AM
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i see your point sportsfan, but tournaments are dying now. why because of poor planning on EVERYONE'S part.

the point is we have big tournaments now, what would you propose we do not let them run because it might hurt someone else? there have been some suggestions to coop with another club or two, that would work with some planning.

we have run a successful sub-district tournament here in d1 for many years now. probably the best, big venue, full mats, with the largest population. it wouldn't take anything away from d2, or your area. what it would do is bring in some other competition, break away from wichita see what's out there, in-state. stop going to ok, keep it in-state.


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: HEADUP] #167511 04/02/10 11:43 AM
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See this is what you would know if you had ever been involved in hosting a tournament. There is NO planning because all of us are limited on dates that we can access facilities. I wish it was as simple as those of you that have never hosted a tournament, make it out to be. It simply isn't!
As to your "full mats", maybe it is you who needs to steer clear of the larger tournaments because there are those out there already offering that. When you exceed the capacity of your facility that is when you have 14U wrestling on half mats and 10U wrestling on quarter mats. Believe it or not, there are tournaments out there right now wrestling on full mats for most age groups.


Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: sportsfan02] #167512 04/02/10 11:45 AM
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It will never happen cause honestly most of you wouldn't come to D4. Unless it was Pratt or Hays. Can't see any one of you going to Ulysses or Hugoton.

Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: n7m13c99] #167513 04/02/10 11:49 AM
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Another good point!


Re: Kansas triple crown [Re: sportsfan02] #167515 04/02/10 12:27 PM
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i guess i dont see how its going to affect all those small tournaments. it might take a few of the better kids that already do travel toward wichita but overall the kids that are that good to be in the hunt for the series points will go to those tournaments. do you really think a kid that isnt in the running is going to go out of his way to go to a tournament just because its involved with a series. if anything it might bring in some out of state quality kids. i think some of you guys are over thinking and are still living in the old days. well this isnt the old days and we have to think of ways to keep improving kansas wrestling not staying like it used to be when we wrestled. kids are lazier these days and the rewards get them off the couch and on to the mat. if thats what it takes then so be it. as long as they arent sitting on the couch playing games all day i am for whatever it takes to prevent that.


Scott Bockover
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