Doug,

Last year was the first year that the Okies did not need a USA card for USJOC. Talking to some of the guys in charge down there, they will not need them in the future for this tournament either.

I agree about splitting up the team every once in awhile. Kickoff, USJOC, Tulsa, and Salina. That is four times when the hard core kids seperate, while the others are at local tournaments.

Something I could back also, but I sure don't want to call it "The Kanasas Triple Crown" or make up some ridiculous award. Maybe a T-shirt that says "The Big Three" or something. Let's not reward for doing what alot of kids have always been doing, seeking out good competition.

I did some research. Kansas has around 85 local tournaments to choose between during the year. 7 Cancelled this year, or 8.25% of the tournaments. Kansas basically has 14 weeks of tournaments.


Okalahoma had 40 local tournaments to choose between during the year. 4 Cancelled this year, or about 10% of the tournaments. Oklahoma has basically 17 weeks of tournaments.

I do not know how many tournaments that Oklahoma had before the series was implemented, but I would bet it was more than 40. They only had 36 local tournaments make this year. I can also say that the one series tournament we attended this year only had about 450 kids. The other Oklahoma tournament we went to had about the same numbers.

Kansas averages around 5.6 tournaments a weekend, or about 1 in every district. Oklahoma averages about 2.11 tournaments a weekend, or a series tournament and one other. To me it looks like the series is taking over in Oklahoma. If your club is not a part of the series, your club better find another way to fund raise, because you wont do it with a local tournament.

That is some very interesting info!!!
Do you mind if I ask where you got your Oklahoma numbers

I got the information off of the Oklahoma Website, there is a link under our calendar. I did not count Novice Tournaments, only Opens. I also did not count The Kickoff, Tulsa Nationals, or USJOC. Rollers make the money from The Kickoff and Tulsa and the OKWA makes the money from USJOC. USJOC is actually a series tournament, which would help my point rather than hurt it. I did not count it eiher way though.

I counted a little different...
Cause I went to Okseries.com
I took from Oct 17th to Feb 6th!
That’s 17 weeks of wrestling!
NOT INCLUDING THEIR STATE CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES!!!

I went through and omitted all the out of state tournaments that list on their calendar.

I counted over 50 individual open tournaments!
I counted around 20 individual novice tournaments!
Of those 70+ tournaments
I counted 4 tournaments that canceled! One of the 4 that canceled was a series tournament!
That gives them about 70 tournaments in a season.
11 are series points tournaments!
That’s about a 6% cancelation rate!

They avg of about 4 tournaments a weekend


In Kansas we had OVER 100 total TOURNAMENTS. That’s individual tournaments. Open or novice! NOT INCLUDING OUR STATE SERIES! That also does not include any OK tournaments that we regularly attend.
That was from Dec 5th to March 6th. That is 14 weekends!
We also had 10 tournaments that canceled! That’s about a 10% cancelation rate!
That is an average of 7 tournaments a weekend not including the ones that canceled or our state series.
Obviously we counted very differently so if someone would like to double check our math please feel free.

But if my numbers are right….
That is a HUGE warning sign!
And series or no series….
SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE!

Lance when you count Kansas Tournaments, if they were rescheduled they will show up twice. Once with a line through it and once without. So our numbers were not as high. I believe my count of 85 opens is pretty accurate.

Oklahoma also posts Kansas tournaments. You may have counted some of them. After a recount I have Oklahoma with 45 Open Tournaments. Did you count Roller Tournaments and USJOC?

Point is Kansas wrestles three weeks less and has almost twice as many tournaments. If we go to a series will our tournaments start to wither away also?

I don't see a HUGE warning sign with Kansas holding 5.6 open tournaments a weekend. Three weekends hold 9 tournaments and none of them got cancelled. Kansas Folkstyle is going STRONG and will do fine. We need to work on Kansas Freestyle and Greco, to take the next big step forward.

one thing to keep in mind on the numbers is this. no one has be in favor of more than 6 tournaments for ks, ok has like 15 for the series right? fs and greco need to be more accessible, seems like it's still, a "secret" society, just kidding, it's just more travel, and harder to find a local club. again with the money thing. oh well.

This is a minimum of 4 tournaments in the series and a maximum of 12. That is just to show its potential. Potential to me, means it would grow.

i have stated before that i think any more than 6 is too many. it would be too watered down. here my thoughts on which tourneys should be series tourneys. hays, salina, classic, topeka. that's 1 in each district. if we add any more it would lose some luster. i would like to see it to get some more folks to d1 and d4. potential actually means it might grow. plenty of things/people have potential yet never pan out.

chad if those four tournaments were in a series, you know you would be there. as would the rest of the top kids in ks. competition is good, and yes you can find it in a number of places, including out of state. but aside from topeka these tournaments are already estabished, and attended by many of the states best. topeka used to have a big tourney too, and could easily handle to size, and still be central. the only way this would take away from the state series is if we let it. keep the bling to a minimum. maybe regular medals and a page listed as all-state in the program.

I can honestly say my Schedule would not change.



They already do that, it is the State Placers from the previous year.

I Know I keep fighting this, but I don't see why we should reward kids for seeking out competition. Your reward is a better wrestler, and a State Championship or state placing.

you're absolutely right, what's another page. and i also agree you will be rewarded for seeking out competition, simply by being a better wrestler. but why shouldn't they be rewarded? what one page going to hurt, i mean really.

and if your schedule would not change, my feelings won't be hurt, HONESTLY. i wish you would be on board, but you don't have to be. i don't even know if i can get my club on board, but i will get a few. we go to those tourneys already, except hays. we came close to voting that one in this year, i'm sure next year we will have some make the long trip.

HONELSTY would your feelings be hurt if they do this? really, one page? let me ask you this. why do you go to usjoc? tulsa? kickoff? salina? classic? for the competition, is going to be your answer. what does it hurt? honestly, you are going to argue over one page? this has gone beyond constructive criticism.

so if choose freestyle/greco, what are the age groups and weight limits?

Chad
I did count Roller and JOC!
I also counted Novice only tournaments in both states.
If there was a novice/open I only counted it as 1 tournament.
I also went and took out every KS Tournament on the schedule that had the lines drawn through it!!!

Just off your numbers (No Novice)its over 6 tournaments a week in KS and under 3 per week in OK! And series tournament are only about 1 every other week so they do not control OK wrestling!

They wrestle for 17 weeks. The series has 12 tournaments (USJOC is considered a series tournament). That leaves 5 open weekends. There is not a series tournament on Halloween, Thanksgiving, or Christmas. Tournaments just don't seem to do real well on these dates. We are now down to 2 open weekends. The series also does not have a tournament on Jan. 16th which is YMCA STATE. So basically there is a series tournament every weekend except for one.

If we are averaging 6 Open tournaments a weekend and they are averaging 3, why are we wanting to mimic them if we want to grow?

We have a page to recognize State Champions and placers. We have a page to recognize Triple Crown Winners. It takes away from the real acomplishments of these wrestlers.

It is not like there are going to only be a few winners like the Triple Crown. There will be a winner in every weight at every age. Then we are going to have to have a Series Team 2 and a series Team 3. Where does it stop? Everybody wins. Why don't we put a page in there of everybody that started the season also? Let's stick to real accomplishments; State and Triple Crown.

we have team pictures in the program too, does that take away anyone's state championship. no one can take it away, no one. for being such a ha, you are starting to worry me with all this, diminished accomplishment stuff.

As simple as I can put it. Going to 4 seperate tournaments in 4 seperate Districts does not qualify you as an All State wrestler. It is no kind of accomplishment what so ever. It is nothing worthy of an Award, a Title, or a qualification for being on The Series Team.

The Series Champion would just be the wrestler that went to the most tournaments. Lets score by points like Oklahoma; 10 points for 1st, 8 for 2nd, 6 for 3rd, and 4 for 4th. Wrestler A could take 3rd at every tournament earning 24 points. Wrestler B could take 1st at Two of the tournaments and only earn 20 points. Wrestler C could take 1st and 2nd at two of the tournaments and earn 18 points. Wrestler A would be the "Series Champion", even though he did not win one of the Series tournaments. Just because his daddy could afford to send him to every series tournament. That is not an accomplishment! Why should we recognize him as an "All Stater" or "Series Champ".

If it is that important that the kid feels good, just buy them an Award at State. There is a vendor there just for that reason.

HA

Isn't that how WOW, and The Mat.com do it as far as rankings? 3rd at all of Rollers stuff in a year is seeded higher then a Reno Champ or a Tulsa Nat. Champ at one of there events. Or am I mistaken?

You are correct. Not saying that I like the way they do it either. I think your Tulsa National Champ is the real deal, but they will give it to the All-Star every time.