If we are, that is because they refuse to wrestle up in age, which makes me have no sympathy for their plight.


You are everytime you insist there is something lacking in Kansas and put the Oklahoma series up as proof. The fact is, none of us really know just how effective that series is. Is it a money maker for all the clubs? Did it, or is it still, killing other tournaments not associated with it? I don't know and really don't care because that is Oklahoma and this is Kansas. The grass is always greener!


Well, the bad ones anyway.



So, if I go along with you on this series I will suddenly be less negative? Let me think about that and get back to you.


YES! I have been saying from the start that A series will take kids away from other tournaments. The problem is never how many kids this "all star" tournament or that takes away, it's the one's that should be wrestling elsewhere that go along with the flow because they heard some fool on a message board say "it's totally about the competition".
I come from the school that it's more about the numbers and participation and having fun. I believe the cream will always rise to the top regardless.


Now THAT'S what I've been talking about, and for a long time! I say those kids who REALLY need the competition, to go do Tulsa Nationals and USJOC and forget the rest! When you start supporting what's already here, then you get back to me about making Kansas wrestling better.
By the way, I've thought about being less negative and I just can't do it. Your idea about a series still sucks. But that still does not mean your next one can't be a homerun.

Maybe all those OK kids will start coming here instead! [/quote]
No, no they won't. Not in any numbers, as others have told you already.

Okay here is another concern that I have with the series. There are 76 weight classes from 6under to 12under. 76 awards times 20 dollars each is 1,520 dollars that is just for first, say 15 dollars for second 1,140 dollars, say 10 for third and fourth thats 1,520 dollars. total on awards for top 4 in series 4,180 dollars. If you only have four tournaments in the series 1 in each district and charge 1 dollar more per entry, you will not make enough money to buy the awards. Average attendance 900 x 4 3600. This is going to end up a nightmare, if you charge more you are going to get the "what are they doing with all the money" if you dont charge enough your broke. just something to think about

Another thing would be if your gonna do it you need to advertise advertise advertise. I honestly think the problem with Sprawl Nationals was lack of advertising and promotion!!! If you want to draw other states and competition you have got to get it out there on websites ,flyers whatever to promote it. We didn't hear about sprawl until the season started.so i'm just saying promote it get it out there as much as possible

Mike Pirl,

I agree promotion is the key to a successful tournament of National caliber. They did promote it fairly early as we were talking about it before the season started.

Do you run a tournament are these the numbers you use to buy awards with? If so then power to you. Most tournaments in OK just give out awards that they can afford they are not dictated to award anything special just because they host a series tournament. Before you start going nuts on stuff you don't know anything about you should probably try to research it first that way you don't put out info that is incorrect.

Read about it here: http://okseries.com/cgi/seriesindex.cgi

Oh, and Sportsfan02 still can't post his name and most of what he says is out in left field in relation to what is really going on. Just another thing that OK does better, they require everyone to sign up for the message boards so that there is no anon posters.

Thanks, Troy Fowler

Mike
There is only series Champion.
No second third forth.
We might throw in an extra tee shirt if he sweeps the series.
So we could spend thirty or forty dollars per award and donate the rest to freestyle or a club in need in return for man power help or mat usage.
The idea is to not pull a profit but promote and give back to the sport.
Good Looking Out Though

Troy Fowler,
Before you run your mouth about which you know nothing. I wasn't talking about tournament awards smart guy. I was talking about series awards smart guy. and the peopele who i was referring it to got it smart guy.
As for the sprawls deal you needed to be promoting in April to get interest for November A national tournament is not something that you hear about on monday and travel to on Friday.

This is the problem in Kansas People like you that know all and are unwilling to let people in or hear what they have to say.

Mike Pirl

Sounds like you will fit in well with the okies.
I do wish kansas had the same rule but I dont think I will turn against kansas wrestling because of it.

Luellen,

Being that we've been more or less forced to wrestle down that way for the last few years. I might just be a little inclined to agree with that sentiment. Would rather wrestle closer to home but the KS rules push us away. Who's fault it that??

OK, ain't perfect either but they do offer us a level field and more competition. Frankly, we were told to wrestle in OK a few years back right here on this message board by several people whom I felt had a better outlook on the sport than I did. So guess what we actually followed that advice and it has paid off big time. So we didn't turn against KS wrestling on anything, we did what we were told.

Mike Pirl,

At this point there isn't any steadfast rule on what would or could be done with awards one way or the other. Might just be a nifty certificate, who really knows. That would placate the "Bling" haters, I guess. Sponsorship could play a role in that. So throwing out figures at this point is not really doing anything but trying to scare people off the idea in my opinion. I viewed your post as being extremely antagonistic so I am sure others saw it that way as well. You may have some legitimate concern in that regard, so I apologize if I am wrong.

I do think OK has a good model for a series but feel we should not copy 100%. We should make an effort to develop our own goals and criteria for what we think is beneficial to the development of the sport in this state when the series is being implemented. That will be decided by others and not by me. If we don't like it we will just wrestle in OK as we've been doing.

I agree w/ Lance that this shouldn't be about the money. At best it should break even and or could be a fund raiser for something else. National Teams, Middle School Duals, Freestlye/Greco. Who, how, when and why hasn't been decided, so it is all sorta wait and see at this point.

Now on the Sprawls, they have already begun the process of promotion as they have already announced their change of dates this April, so I guess that's really a dead issue. I am not affiliated with them at all, so where they go from here is on them. I truthfully hope that they will get this event to a level that it will rival the WOW series, as that would be a benefit to KS wrestling. Thanks, Troy

What is the rule that causes you to wrestle in Oklahoma? I know that at our tournament I try to bracket the hvy weights for max # of matches. most years i will have to call the clubs the hvy weight wrestler is in & give them thier choices.

example-- do you want to wrestle up in age or do you want a 2 man round robin?

example-- do you want to give up weight or wrestle a two man rr?

When your 10U and weigh in close to 200lbs in KS you are forced to wrestle up an age group in all but a few tournaments. The 25lb spread rules and weight limitations applies here and doesn't elsewhere. We had two tournaments in KS this year the rest were out of state(OK & NV). We can go to OK wrestle in our own age group in our own weight class with 7 plus boys in a bracket. Can't say all tournaments in OK are loaded with HWT's that way, but since they show who's going ahead of time in their series sign up system, we can choose to go where we get the most matches. Why so many HWTs in OK? They top out at #285 not #170 like KS and they encourage the bigger kids to wrestle and make a place for them not like KS. There were several boys that were even bigger than Nate to wrestle down there. So instead of 5 kids spread out across the state like in KS they have 15-20. Also, we live 15 min from OK border so the math is simple.

You have to understand the we've been dealing with this since he was a 6U, we did wrestle up for a few years in KS and learned it just wasn't doing anything for him except getting him beat half the time which is what you would expect if you have to wrestle up an age group against kids who were sometimes 3 years older. Maturity is a lot harder to beat than skill in my opinion especially with the younger kids. Learning to lose has already been taught, so we decided to take the advice given here and wrestle elsewhere. The other side of that was competition in KS, there just wasn't a whole lot of kids even wrestling up an age group to wrestle due to the rules, same kids over and over. Why because if your a big kid then you've probably moved on to another sport because the rules work against you in KS and you get left out or are forced to wrestle up. Also, there seems to be a mentality that if you can't go to the State Series in KS then you get treated like a leper. My feelings are that when he gets into HS he will have to wrestle older boys and I am cool with that, but then again so will others in his age group. Then it will be a level playing field for all of them.

We've had a good season this year:
20-0 record all pins. Most were State Champs i.e.. OK, WY, OR, MT, KS, etc... Many hadn't lost a match all season till Nate wrestled them let alone get pinned. Some were even State & previous National Freestyle & Greco Champs as well.

2010 USJOC Champion and Outstanding Wrestler Div#3
2010 Tulsa Nationals Champion
2010 Reno Worlds Champion and Outstanding Wrestler Div#3
He is going to be named to the Worlds All-star team and the list goes on.

So I ask where did we go wrong here? We took him to some of the toughest competitions in his age group that the country has to offer at great expense to us and friends just so he could wrestle the best there was to offer. We had a very limited budget this year for wrestling so I feel we did about as good as you could get under the circumstances. Would have loved to do more National Competitions this year but there was just wasn't the money or the support to do that. We did wrestle in a few tournaments in KS and we were very excited and grateful to be able to do that. But on the whole, it just didn't make sense to wrestle up an age group at home when we did have better options abroad. We move up to 12U this next season and hopefully he will get at least one year in KS before he is over #240lbs, depends on his growth. I am guessing he will be 6' tall and about 220lbs by his 12th birthday in Dec. Time will tell.

That answers my question. OK has more 10U hvys in your sons age. It seems to me that you should wrestle up in age any way. He won tulsa- reno- joc. I cant belive that there is 10U in OK or kansas that can give him a decent match.

Hey Hossus would you like to move to Wichita. We could use a football player. lol. now that should get the recruitment arguement started. All I can say is everyone has an idea what they want. Now its up to those people to do what they want. Its too bad when someone steps up to try and make a difference you have others that want to shoot it down without even giving it a chance because it wasnt something they thought of. I think we all want the same thing and that is our kids to be the best they can but dont think everyone wants to put in the effort to make it happen. yes fs and gr would be good but not every kid can wrestle that due to other sports. those of you that do fit it in awesome for you and i bet 4 out of 5 of them only have 1 or 2 kids. Yes Steele you have however many and you might be the exception. Keep up the good work Lance and hope you guys make this happen and make it successful that way whoever said it wont work can pat you on the back and say they were wrong. only way it wont work is if everyone keeps talking down on it.

When we are talking about fitting FS and GR in, we have to take advantage of one another's willingness to give a ride to your kid, or vice versa. Not just FS GR either. Lots of carpooling and hotel room sharing goes on with my kids (7 of them by the way) and their sports.

My next statement is in no way trying to stir the pot, but you made a statement about your kid doing well without FS GR. You are right, and most kids that age (less than 10 yrs old)are able to. What you'll realize, as they get older, is that FS GR is very important. Remember, noone but you and your kid is gonna remember who won the 2009 10u whatever weight class at Ks Kids State. But they'll remember the HS state champions........That is where it counts.

Alright i got a question! If the series thing happens,, What -if your 2 series tournaments in to the season and your club goes to register for the 3rd series tournament but is turned away because they are full,, what are you supposed to do then?

Iam Undecided on the series thing,, have seen many pros and cons for the series!

Some one said GR/FS doesn't make great wrestler that hard work and dedication does. Well wrestling into July and playing baseball sounds like hard work and dedication to me.

Doug, I agree with you just this past weekend I had kids from Abilene, Manhattan and Herington carpooling together for the tournament. If the kids want it the parents can find a way to make it happen. But I guess thats not dedication.

Andrew Steele

Like I said before Doug. I know you have been around for a number of years. I do think fs and gr will help but I also think a series will to if it works the way it is supposed to. The series is better for me as its during wrestling season and I still get to be a dad at home with my other kids. Im not saying that at some point my son wont wrestle fs or gr but until its either moved up sooner or he just doesnt want to play baseball its not going to happen. I think there are a ton of other kids that feel the same way. It comes down to time, money and family to me. My family time with all 5 kids are far more important than a fs or gr wrestling. Those of you that have sacrificed things to do it then kudos to you but thats not what i am going to do.

Like I said, if anyone's kid wants to FS and GR, please, as parents, don't let the "I can't be there because his sister has a ball tourney" excuse keep the kid from wrestling. Plenty of opportunities to carpool. I know we all feel like we are imposing on people, but we typically tend to remember when people helped us out, not so much when we helped other people out, so it evens out in the end.

thats not the only reason. Brady has practice 2 nights a week. he usually plays 2 games a week. that only leaves 1 day to practice if that. we usually are playing tournaments on the weekends so you see its easier said than done.

Jake practices Baseball 4 nights a week and Freestyle 3 nights a week. Wrestling starts at 4:30-6:00. Baseball 6:00-8:00. So it is just as easily done.

I have been trying to let this die, but as I can see it will not. The good news for me is that this forum or at least the guys posting on it do not represent the majority.

It kills me that those that are wanting the series, "to make Kansas Wrestling better", are the same ones that cant find a way to Freestyle. You don't want to start the season early, because it will interfere with football. You don't want to extend it into the summer, because it will interfere with Baseball. You want Kansas wrestling to get better, but you don't want to make any sacrifices for it to become better.

Oklahoma starts in October and ends in February. You series freaks want to be like Oklahoma with the series, but not with their time frame. Maybe you preceive them as better because they are peaking at a different time of the year then we are.

Most of you that are for the series, aren't really looking for competition. The competition can be found. What you guys are wanting is a false award. How many of you only go to Tulsa when your kid is at the top of the age?