Topeka Capital Journal

KSHSAA hears public vs. private arguments April 23, 2010
| EMAIL | PRINT | COMMENT | SHARE By Brent Maycock
Created April 23, 2010 at 8:18pm

Updated April 24, 2010 at 12:05am
The public vs. private school issue is hardly a new one.

Nor is it an issue likely to be resolved with one easy decision.

"I don't think it's something that will ever get resolved to everyone's satisfaction," Southern Coffey County superintendent Mike Kastle said. "I don't think there's a conclusion that will satisfy everybody."

While a resolution doesn't appear to be in sight, discussions began in earnest at Friday night's Kansas State High School Activities Association Board of Directors meeting about potential wide-sweeping changes. No action will be taken this weekend — and the earliest wouldn't be until September — but as DeSoto principal David Morford said, it was time "to talk about the elephant in the room."

"We need to stop dancing around it," said Morford, who spoke on behalf of the Frontier League, which sent forth one of two proposals regarding reclassifying private schools.

Under the Frontier League's proposal, private schools would be put into a separate classification (two for football) while also breaking Class 4A into two divisions. A second proposal, submitted by the North Central Kansas League, would place private schools in one classification higher than the enrollment figure.

Some believe such change is needed because they say private schools are winning a disproportional number of state championships and claiming a disproportional number of state-tournament berths.

There might be some argument to that.

Take Class 5A, where there are four private schools — Aquinas, Carroll, Kapaun and Miege — that make up 12.5 percent of the classification. However, in the sports that conduct bracketed or pool-play state tournaments (baseball, basketball, football, soccer, softball and volleyball), those four schools combined for 24 of the potential 64 postseason berths, or roughly 37.5 percent.

In girls' soccer, the final four teams in Class 5A were the four private schools.

In findings put together by an 18-member committee created to study the issue beginning in 2007, private schools won 21 percent of the state titles in volleyball, 11 percent in football, 14 percent in girls basketball and 19 percent in boys basketball. Private schools make up just 7 percent of the KSHSAA 360-school membership (26 schools).

"At some point, we had to discuss this issue," said Clay Center principal Mike Adams, speaking on behalf of the North Central Kansas League's proposal. "There's an inequitable playing field, and we need to change it."

The meeting drew eight public speakers, ranging from representatives from parochial schools such as Carroll, Kapaun, Colgan, Sacred Heart and Beloit-St. John's to Kastle from Southern Coffey and Havana resident Steve Clark, who brought 15 letters in support of changes to the classification system.

"Let me first say that I think an awful lot of private schools — my wife went to a great one out of state," said Clark, who also said he probably would have sent his children to one if there had been one near Havana, which is located just southwest of Independence in southeastern Kansas. "But I do think there needs to be a level playing field.

"And I'm not even focusing on championships. For me, it's about the journey and the chance to maybe win a sub-state. In some areas, there are roadblocks with private schools, and these kids just get tired of getting beaten down."

Sacred Heart principal John Krajicek said while the issue being addressed is private vs. public, it may not be the appropriate one. He said his school benefits from the numerous youth sports programs offered in Salina, something many schools Sacred Heart's size may not have since many 2A schools are located in rural, not urban, areas.

Most of the state's private schools are located in urban or metropolitan areas, giving them the same advantages.

"I've spent time in private and public schools, and the same factors go into successful programs — good coaching, supportive parents, community expectations and strong youth programs," Krajicek said.

But the perception is private schools have advantages, and that can be reality, said Colgan football coach Chuck Smith.

"It's all perception and people don't mean bad, but I don't think they fully understand," Smith said. "It's hard to say that we're really on a normal curve, but when you take every Catholic kid in town, you're really on a normal curve. You have all kinds of backgrounds and socioeconomic groups.

"This issue has been around forever, and it isn't going to go away."

KSHSAA executive director Gary Musselman agreed.

"I think, nationally, this dialogue has ratcheted up, not just in Kansas," he said. "It's a small world, a shrinking world in terms of communication and exposure. High school sports gets more attention than it used to and it's more in the limelight. Everybody has an opinion and can weigh in on it, and that escalates the dialogue.

"Clearly, there are both public schools and private schools that have real dominant stretches. Look at the Highland Parks, Wyandotte basketball, SM Northwest in cross country, Emporia in wrestling, right on down the line. I don't know that it all cuts one way and, as Chuck said, I think perception plays a huge part."

In some cases you could move a school down 2 or 3 classifications
and those schools may still not have a post season opportunity. I am not sure how to measure parental support: financially, time management outside of school functions and during school acitvities, available youth programs, etc. Some kids have to help out with chores on the farm or ranch, family business, taking a job during high school years at a restaurant, grocery store, work on grades/study, etc., Many factors come into play in the amount of times kids can spend on acitvities - including piano or trumpet lessons, and sport/athletic improvement opportunities. Metroplitan areas may have several off season clubs to chose from - competitive and non-competitive clubs, traveling squads, etc. Some areas within walking distance may not offer any opportunties until high school.

That is a good post, Smokey. You make some good points and it is true that you could move some teams down in classification and they probably still would not be competitive.

The girls soccer example is different than a lot of sports. For one thing not all the schools have girls soccer teams. Soccer is a sport that kids in the metropolitan areas participate in year around on club teams and they travel all over the country to play top competition club tournament games. Teams in the metro areas will definitely have advantages over non metropolitan areas for that reason. Also the 5A example could somewhat be solved in soccer if soccer split their classes differently. Why is 6A alone and then 5 thru 1A in one classification for their state competition? I suppose it might have something to do with not all the smaller schools having soccer teams but from a competition standpoint due to what I said previously about the metropolitan advantages with the club teams it should be 6A and 5A combined and then 4A thru 1A in one class. Even if they did that two of the teams St. James last year's champion and Aquinas girls last year's runner up would probably have finished the same way in a combined 6A-5A as I know Aquinas beat the 6A champion Blue Valley West during the season.

I think the KSHSAA rules state there has to be a minium of 24 schools in a classification to have a state tournament. In girls soccer I count 32 of 32 6A schools have soccer, I count 32, maybe 31, 5A schools have girls soccer, and 19 or 20 4321A schools with girls soccer. Right now there is to few 4321A schools to have a girls state soccer tournament. Also, combing 6A and 5A would create a 64 team field for girls soccer and not leave enough 4321A teams for a state tournament. There is no problem with boys soccer: 32 6A schools with soccer, 32 5A schools with soccer, 38 4321A schools with soccer. To split boys to 4A and 321A would create a 27 team field for 4A, but only 11 teams for 321A--not enough for a state tournament.

Do agree that Metro teams have an advantage in many sorts due to expansive rec and club sports. No towns in Kansa can compare with the type, number and competition levels of youth sports in Johnson County and the Wichita and Topeka areas. The KSHSAA rule adopted in the mid 90s limiting the number school "participation"/"squad" members that could play on the same team in an out of season sport I think severly hurt the ability of smaller towns to put together stronger school teams. Briefly, the "participation/squad rules in basketball permits only 3 member of the same HS squad (i.e. varsity squad) to to play on the same out of season team. Restrictions in the other HS sports are: 6 in soccer, 5 in baseball, 5 in softball, 6 in football, 4?? in volleyball. To put together an off season team in Johnson County is no problem--there are how many HS (public and private) in Johnson County: 24, 25 26??. Same for Wichita, and in Topeka 7 HSs. Kids can travel a few miles to practice and play on teams that may have palyers from 5, 6, 7 etc different schools. Also, many competitive level clubs/teams in several sports are managed by companies that manage teams, using hired coaches. Many of these companies may have 10 to 15 to 20 different teams: boys U6, U7, U8, U9, U10, etc up through U18; for girls the same breakout and number of teams. For comparison, look at Hays--I use Hays because I have seen and was impressed by their girl's club team in a couple of tournaments. Hays girls, Hays boys if they paly off season soccer, go to Salina to play in leagues, a 200 mile round trip--Salina schedules them 2 games on the same day to reduce the travel days. How does Hays form a competitive club team with only 2 HS (Hays and Hays TMP) and restricted to not more than 6 players from either school's varsity team-by filling the roster with JV players. If Colby, Goodland and Oakley wanted to play HS soccer, where could there kids play in the off season to hone their skills--with only one HS in each town--could not form a town/club team-kids would have to mary up with players from the other towns to form a team--plus drive 20 to 30 miles on way to practice. How do small towns play off season field sports, I assume they don't, certainly not at the same competitive levels as metro areas. The KSHSAA "participation/squad" rule punishes small town HS sports by retricting their ability to form off season teams from only one HS!!!!!!

And none of this load of bunk has anything to do with Kansas wrestling. Find a soccer forum!

The issue is public and private schools in all sports. What ever the decision by KSHSAA, status quo, split 4A into two sub classes, apply a multiplier, bump all private schools a class, move all private schools to separates, it will effect al sports---INCLUDING WRESTLING. Soccer was only an example in one sport. Could have used any of the sports with the same result, except perhaps baseball and softball which are played in the summer.

Thank you Richard for your BUNK response. Everyone beware, Richard does not play well with others---or is it no one wants to play with Richard.

Bill Mason, I do agree with you that it is a legitimate topic on our high school wrestling forum because it is something that could potentially effect high school wrestling. The reason I think it is okay to talk about soccer specifically is that it is the long term record of teams like the Aquinas boys and girls soccer team that is adding to the high number of the private schools state championships that have fueled the discussion of splitting or moving up a class the private schools.

I thought your post was interesting and I wanted to comment on a couple of aspects of it.




I appreciated this information because it was in direct response to my last post and it gave me some detailed information as to my question about why girls soccer was split into 6A and then the rest 5-4-3-2-1A. I wonder if a 48 team 6A approach would work in soccer for both girls and boys. This would probably get Aquinas in 6A and the Aquinas boys and girls soccer team should truly be in the top class if you are going to start to handicap the Kansas high school athletic system in some manner. Of course the Hutchinson football team should also be in the top class if you are going to start to handicap Kansas high school athletic system.

I would be more supportive of a handicap system that was not just for private schools but also for public schools that would be structured in a way that very dominant teams like the Aquinas soccer teams and the Hutchinson football teams would be moved up to a higher class if they met certain criteria and they were not already in the highest class. For instance perhaps something like in a five year period at least quarterfinal participation in very year along with at least two state championships. It is just an example and I am sure someone could come up with something better. And perhaps a team could maybe even move down in class if they had a long history of not having success for example not being in the quarterfinals for a ten year period. Again just an example that could be improved on. In this type of handicap system though you could have some teams in different class from the same school like Bishop Miege was 4A for football this year and 5A for every other sport. So Hutchinson's football team would be 6A in this system but its wrestling team and other sports would remain 5A. I think this type of handicap system would have a lot more support from private schools and their advocates because it would apply equally to very successful public school teams and teams that were not having the same level of success as say the Hutchinson football team would not be penalized.



I may have heard of this rule but did not pay much attention to it in the past. I suppose there is a reason it was implemented and I would like to hear what the exact reason is. On the surface it seems to me that the KSHSAA is extending its jurisdiction over the high athletes a little too far but again I do not understand the details that went into the decision. I do agree with you though that it would hinder small town athletes in forming off season club team in their sports and it would be easier to do in the metropolitan areas.

The rationale for the rule as given when it was established was to improve competition by preventing strong HS teams, i.e., STA boys or girls soccer teams, from playing off season sports as a club team. Other examples: Miege volleyball, Colgan and Ward baseball if there where fall club baseball, etc. The rule accomplished what was intended in the three biggest population area. But, I also think it hamstrings the ability of smaller towns to put one-town teams in off season competition.

Thank you. I thought it might be something like that. I guess I still see this as being a little overreaching in the KSHSAA jurisdiction. I don't think they should be legislating what teams the athletes can get involved with during the off seasons. To me that is going too far. But at the very least I think they should have an exemption for the smaller communities. Just as I think that there should be an exemption to let our high school wrestling coaches be allowed to coach their wrestlers in freestyle and greco wrestling in the wrestling off season during the school year.

Private schools make up just 7 percent of the KSHSAA 360-school membership (26 schools).

What percent of the Board of Directors has private and public school representation?

"Private schools make up just 7 percent of the KSHSAA 360-school membership (26 schools).

What percent of the Board of Directors has private and public school representation?"

The KSHSAA Board of Directors is composed of 47 members. Currently, three (3) of those members are P/P school persons and this does NOT include those league representatives who have P/P schools in their league.

27 of 360 = 7.2%
3 of 47 is 6.4%

I counted 3 or 4 of 78 on their web site.

Yep, I shorted a page of the Board members;
I count 76 and 3 direct P/P reps. So, 3 of 76 = 3.97%

As I obviously have accuracy issues, lets use your numbers; 4 of 78 = 5.12%

Since the Board is weighted heavily with public school representation should private schools get a multiplier to level the playing field?
5 or 6 would be a good number.

"As I obviously have accuracy issues" - As do I!

74-4 or 72-6 is not much difference when a vote is taken.

Funny how so many of these posts on here are from parents of kids who sent/could afford to send/were on scholarship (you can pic the one you want) at a private school. Nothing wrong with that, but I would imagine your perspective would be a tad skewed and your tone defensive, and it is. I straddle both fences. My oldest boy went to Miege, my youngest is in public school in Olathe, I coached for 30 years in public schools and private small colleges. All that being said, I have watched way too many private schools buy state championships. That was just the reality of it. I know way to many parents who paid no money to send their kids to those schools on "scholarship" and know, first hand, the kids who were recruited to go to those schools. I was a part of a state hearing against Kapaun in the 70's so it has been going on for a long long time. I don't think it is fair. Don't get me wrong, these are great schools and I have known some good people at all of them, but I think their advantage is too great and I think they really rip apart teams from the pubic schools in and out of their areas. I have always thought they should be separate. No sense being in denial about the reality of what happens though.

In Olathe, incoming sophomore students have the opportunity to apply for a 21st Century academic program at another high school and be granted a transfer. I know at ONW we have lost students to other high schools for pursuing interests at either OS, OE or ON. I really doubt that kids would even consider attending another Olathe school for athletic reasons though.

It happens everywhere, some places more than others. Quit complaining and get to work on the real issues like promoting our sport, fundraising and making your team the best it can be.

Private schools "buy" state championships. Great. Let's say it does happen just for the sake of discussion. So what? Kansas sports (including wrestling) are already so freaking diluted that making private schools play in their own class would be a joke. so do we do a multiplier? it's proven that this isn't going to stop the state championships from coming or have any effect really whatsoever. so if that would make people feel better than sure, go ahead and make STA and Bishop Carroll's kids place at 6A state instead of 5A.

I should probably shut my mouth, but I am beginning to take this "attack" on private schools personally.

Pretty simple math in Hays. If you are a parishoner of one of the eight Catholic parishes in the community and you tithe, your cost to attend TMP-Marian is $200. If you are not Catholic or a member of another parish, the cost is $9,000. We have a generous annual trust and endowment that helps off-set this cost, but parents must apply for financial aid by submitting their tax returns to an independant company out of state. That company determines the financial ability of families to pay. This year we did not refuse any applications, nor have we thrown any one out of school this year. Not sure how that gives us an unfair advantage.

I will tell you that the pressure to succeed at this school is high. A 70 is a D-. 96-100 is an A. We have uniforms, hair codes, piercing codes, we have high expectations. Some parents and kids simply don't want that kind of environment. The expectation is that you will get involved, yet no one has been removed for not participating in activities. It does cost money, but is a family by family decision based on what their level of stewardship is. Only 40% of Catholic eigth graders pre-enrolled at TMP. That is actually above average. Personally, I think that number should be 100% So I try to recruit the tithing Catholic kids in Hays to attend Catholic school because their parishes are paying for it. If we do not have students, we do not have a school. Face it, we are in constant competition with public schools for students. If we lose our Catholic identity, we lose our school. However, parents don't always base their decisons soley on the faith fact, they should, but of course they don't. We must be successful spiritually, academically and athletically or we will not have a school. Every student that enrolls here understands that. We get beat in plenty of stuff. I am just pissed for being penalized by a system, where we haven't denied a single student admission, 60% of parents don't send their kids here anyways, and the kids that do take on the challenge of higher expectations get penalized

If you want some equality, let me hit up the public's dime for a new building (ours was built in 1921), a new track (we don't have one) and auxillary gym (our single "pit" was built in 1951) then I might consider the value of a multiplier.

Randy, I believe your comments regarding the privately funded schools "scholarshipping athletes" is hot air. We all know it happened with Kapaun in the MID 80's (not the 70's) and they were sanctioned. I challenge you to find any athletes at SJA or STA that have had their tuition paid for by the school because they are exceptional performers. Put up or shut up. The advantage is the willingness of the parents and kids to put forth the greater effort it takes to achieve the status of STATE CHAMPION. The bell shaped curve comes into play. When you get the students from the right side of the curve you are going to get right sided results. The advantage is CHOICE. When it gets right down to it those attending privately funded schools do so because they CHOOSE to and they will make the most of their investment both academically and athletically. All of this talk to penalize these schools, divide up the classes, make things more fair, etc. is so socialistic that I might have to puke in the trash can next to the announcer's table at next year's Bobcat Classic.