Everyone who reads this forum loves wrestling. I hope this is one point that no one will argue.

Lately it appears from reading some of the posts that some posters are opposed to rankings being published on forum. I really have no idea what possible issue any wrestling proponent could have against rankings. In Colorado Tim Yount, an Atwood native, publishes rankings for every class in Colorado. WIN Magazine, Wrestling USA, USA Wrestling, The Open Mat, IntermatWrestle, FloWrestling, Highschoolwrestling.com, etc all attempt to rate/rank/predict the order of the wrestlers. They do this to promote interest and discussion. Our sport needs this! Football, basketball, baseball, tennis, golf, etc all have rankings and some of those are really never resolved and are argued for years and decades after the season closes. Debate is healthy and generates even more interest in our sport. I think we should be nothing but THANKFUL for Chief Renegade. He doesn't have a dog in the fight but his passion and dedication are second to none. He has nothing but accuracy in mind, no bias or favortism. We should all embrace this and refrain from posting criticism directed at him.

Will:
Your defense of Eric comes as no surprise as several years ago, I pointed out that Eric and Will should provide a disclaimer in their deification of one another since they were friends.

Eric attempts to come across as the know it all and expert on Kansas High School wrestling and I have several issues with his attitude. At one point, several years ago, when I was criticizing his rankings and questioned his knowledge of certain wrestlers, he stated he had seen all of the ranked wrestlers wrestle. That statement was false.

Should I remind you of the arguement, several years ago, between Eric and Joe Bach's father over Joe's weight?

Should I remind you of the statement Eric made about being from a certain part of Kansas when Eric is from Oklahoma.

When Eric states factually he knows the weight a wrestler will be participating at this year, when the wrestler has yet to step on the scale at his high school for hydration testing, the statements are simply his guesswork.

When Eric declares a competitors rankings topic to be dead, it comes across as sour grapes, at best.

Eric is certainly entitled to his opinion as I am mine.

Maybe you could compare and contrast this level of perceived “criticism” to the level of criticism you have displayed in some of your past posts pertaining to KHSHAA, Rick Bowden, 321A, or other target of your interest. I’ve not seen any mean spirited out of line post regarding anyone choosing to rank wrestlers, just a few good natured jabs at the process. I guess you have never seen ESPN personalities discuss the BCS system?

Don’t get me wrong here, I agree with a lot of your past posts and you certainly have every right to post whatever opinion you choose. Keep them coming! But you will have to forgive me for not using you as my moral compass on what I can “criticize” or to what level that criticism reaches.

Although I am not a fan of rankings, I don't care if others want to create them. I do think they would have more credibility if they were not changed two or three times a day. The information on weight is a guess at best. Kids, Coaches, and Parents can not guarantee a kids weight before the season even starts. Even every week is a little much, considering they haven't even stepped on the mat yet. That was my "WOW".

Richard your attack, however not uncharacteristic, is not warranted. Eric does not lie as you have accused him of doing. That is an outright attack and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Why do I need to post a disclaimer? That seems a little over the top. I am not endorsing that we pay Eric or elect him to a high ranking office. Should we post a poll? If the majority like to see rankings and debate then the critics will go silent? My point is that rankings, in general, not Eric Johnson specifically, are good for the sport.

I like Eric because he plays well with others so he doesn't have to play with himself.

I met the Chief through wrestling but I am proud to admit that I consider him a friend. I do so because I can trust what he says to be the truth which and he does not choose to "crucify" other faithful supporters and followers of the sport. He would NEVER stab me or anyone in the back which is way more than I can say about many of the other posters.

Eric Johnson has never called himself an expert. He spends countless hours compiling information and assembling it for our entertainment. NO OTHER SUPPORTER, in our state, can even come close to comparing their study of the sport's competitors.

Joe Bach's Dad was NOT being honest about Joe's weight just as many other fathers, coaches, or others choose to bend the truth on this very forum.

Where are your rankings Richard???

I declare your attack hostile and countersupportive to wrestling. Shame on you.

[quote=Ben Dover}

Maybe you could compare and contrast this level of perceived “criticism” to the level of criticism you have displayed in some of your past posts pertaining to KHSHAA, Rick Bowden, 321A, or other target of your interest. I’ve not seen any mean spirited out of line post regarding anyone choosing to rank wrestlers, just a few good natured jabs at the process. I guess you have never seen ESPN personalities discuss the BCS system?

Don’t get me wrong here, I agree with a lot of your past posts and you certainly have every right to post whatever opinion you choose. Keep them coming! But you will have to forgive me for not using you as my moral compass on what I can “criticize” or to what level that criticism reaches.
[/quote]

Bend Over Steve Earle,

I am not opposed to criticism of the rankings as in the order. I am opposed to those who say there should be NO RANKINGS. The arguements over who should be ranked where are great promotion just like the BCS bantering you pointed out. Great stuff.

As far as me being a moral compass, I am not trying to be one. I simply pointed out that it is GOOD to have a person who will dedicate the time and effort to seek the facts and assemble the rankings. We should be thankful.

I do enjoy attacking the aforementioned groups and probably won't refrain but it is always in the spirit of making changes to improve the sport. If you are not changing then you are falling behind. The three areas you mentioned are out of date, obsolete and counterproductive to improvement. We should be wrestling our HS state tournaments in one building. The fact that only 17 6A schools worth of students attend the 228 321A schools should be ridiculous enough to everyone that I should not have to say a word but I will, intramural like . Rick Bowden, he hates wrestling and his job. Have you ever seen him smile at a wrestling tournament? No way!

As far as order of rank, criticize away but don't ask for the rankings to stop and say that rankings don't have a place on the forum.

This is why my daughters laugh at me when I visit Kansas Wrestling!

They call the "Old lady gossip and bickering site" Too funny! and Too True!

But I like gossip and bickering so who cares!

Are we havin fun yet?

I am having fun!

-NCAA DIII started "official" practice on Monday. My son said it was "Tough but good" and " I like it a lot!"
I found the gossip page for D3 and rankings and all of that stuff.

-A good friend's son wrestles for Burlington Colorado. So I visit those sites.

-I am a GE wrestling fan and I think they will make some noise - so I stay informed here.

Keep up with the rankings - it is a great sport!

If I wanted to hear all this bickering I'd get married!

Keep the rankings going! Thanks Chief. Someone will always have a gripe no matter what you do or how hard you work at it. The vast majority enjoy looking up the all class rankings! Those that don't like them, still look em up! Drive on!

Rankings also create better wrestling...I know if I busted my butt and there was someone ranked ahead of me I would want to be so physical that I break him in the process. I don't think #1 is always the best place to be, heck how many #1 ranked wrestlers in NCAA won it last year?

Rankings are a subject for after supper discussion at our house! We enjoy following the online lists...by whomever chooses to take the time to do so...I like to see different opinions. It's good clean competition for those unable to wrestle any longer...you men just have to be arguing over something..might as well be wrestling

If nothing else..it gives you a list of wrestlers to watch along the way to the State Tournaments! And puts a target on some wrestlers as your wrestler makes it his goal on down the line to meet up with and see how they measure up on the mat!

Lighten up and get ready to enjoy the upcoming season! Your kids probably read all of this and laugh!...and then text your son and comment on Facebook how crazy their parents are about wrestling!

I enjoy the rankings. I agree sometimes and I disagree sometimes, but just like the National Enquirer, I read the headlines while I'm waiting in line. The people at work make fun of me for spending the time on the forum that I do. I am a wrestling fan and it is my FAVORITE sport. My son wasn't ranked in the preseason last year and then he was at the end of the season. This year, he has already been ranked and fallen off of the rankings. He's been busy. I still enjoy reading them. When he is ranked, I like the fact that he is getting the respect that I believe he deserves. When he is not ranked, I like the fact that somebody doesn't believe in him the way I do and I can use that to motivate him. Either way, he has to wrestle the matches and whether he is ranked and whether his opponent is ranked means very little. The best wrestler on that given day will usually leave victorious. This just helps me fill in the time between the matches and the time between wrestling seasons, so keep the rankings coming!

I say keep ranking wrestlers. I was never ranked (probably a correlation to my skill level) but I turned out all right.

I am not sure if I am an expert on the topic, but

If you are ranked, consider it a complement.

If you are not ranked, consider it a challenge to improve and get noticed if you want to be ranked,

If you don't want to be ranked, too bad, you are good and that's all there is to it

Some teams and wrestlers, get the benefit of the doubt because of who they are, that's life

but like life, in wrestling it is entirely up to YOU how the final rankings are determined.




...and we all know that Richard does not play well with others, that too is life

Some time ago, I posted comments supportive of "ranking" wrestlers, to specifically include, "all-class" wrestlers. I thought now would be a good time to re-post these comments:

Throughout the wrestling season, the chief has placed his "opinion" on the line for all to consider, debate and challenge. and the Kansas wrestling community has done just that as amply reflected by the attention and/or interest this particular thread generates. It would not surprise me that the Chief has his personal "favorites" and/or perhaps "prejudices" (as we all do, to include those involved in "rankings", at every level; but if he does, it appears to me that he does a pretty good job of either suppressing or disguising same. He responds to all comments and criticisms in a timely and civil manner. He has demonstrated, time and again, his willingness and ability to consider others expressed opinions, and on numerous occasions, has adjusted his "rankings" accordingly.

I believe that it was Winston Churchill, who, when asked about the concept of democracy, once stated: "Democracy is the absolute worst form of government there is - except every other that has ever been tried. this sentiment captures my attitude involving rankings as a resource to give us an idea how our wrestlers from the various classes, "stack-up", without actually going, head-to-head, which we all know is not practical or possible.

As an aside, even if we were to abandon the practice of having a central depository of opinion(s) for ranking our wrestlers in this state, it would hardly end the discourse, debate, controversy and endless arguments as to who is better and/or best; we just would not have anywhere or anyone to go to, to lend support or level criticism for our own point of view.

By my way of thinking, so long as we have competition, we'll always want to "keep-score" - meaning, know who is ahead and who is behind, at any given point, in time. ranking serves as a convenient vehicle for this purpose, imperfect though it may be.

Rankings can serve to motivate, and I suppose, at times, intimidate wrestlers. Sure, rankings invite controversy, debate and argument, among wrestlers, their coaches and fans, but at least the topic of wrestling is being discussed and attention is being paid to the sport.

Everyone knows that rankings are opinions, and in the Chief's case, the product of his considerable investment of his time and talents to get and keep the discussions going.

the Chief, in a thread long ago, included comments which struck me as poignant and likely true, and worthy of repeat: He said that a particular wrestler, at a given point in time, "owns" that ranking. While I'm not altogether sure that he meant by that, I choose to believe that this sentiment at least contemplates the fact that a particular high school wrestler can always lay claim to the fact, that in someone's considered opinion, this particular wrestler's status was - if for a brief period of time, exalted and he was recognized and celebrated as an elite wrestler, in the state of Kansas.

In years past, I checked the all-class rankings regularly, and although I didn't always agree with the "ranker", his "rankings" nonetheless gave me a pretty good point of reference as to how the various wrestlers in the various classes might "stack-up" against each other. It definitely added a dimension of intrigue and/or anticipation to the match-ups between wrestlers of the various classes - something we'll not at state competition.

I know it sounds simplistic, but for those out there who find these type of "rankings" distasteful, meaningless, or, for some reason an irritant - ignore the thread and save yourself the grief.

Sorry to have droned on for so long, but during my tenure following the high school sport of wrestling, I thoroughly enjoyed the Chief's "rankings"; for that matter, still do!

Amen Svo69!
Dan Gentzler

I would like to make it very clear to everyone. The Eric Johnson mentioned in this post. Is NOT the Eric Johnson from Norton Kansas.

The so called "Rankings" put out by Eric Johnson are just that his rankings, and his opinions. (Which he is entitled to).


The KWCA only endorses the Class by Class Rankings, which are composed by a KWCA elected ranking coordinator. The KWCA rankings will be released to the public at various times during the wrestling season.

Good thing we got that cleared up.