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Ark City Regionals #181782 02/11/11 10:19 PM
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alleyderek Offline OP
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Possible Matchups off of the top of my head

1 Andover Central
3 Kapaun-Mt Carmel
5 Pittsburg
6 Emporia
8 Ark City

103
1. Gentzler AC
3. Howell KAP
4. Knowlen AND
6. Dietrich ARK
Cobb PIT
Sanchez WW
Detweiler EMP

112
5. Suhr KAP
6. Fields PITT
Lightfoot AC
Loos BC

119
3. Dryden KAP
4. Eastman ARK
6. Haake PITT
Dakin EMP
Umscheid AC
Werth BC

125
1. Gentzler AC
2. Watters ARK
3. Maki KAP
5. Wools PITT
Carlson EMP

130
1. Corado PITT
6. Villars ARK
Ziegler BC
Stiles WW

135
2. Charbonneau EMP
3. Seybold PITT
6. Lee AC
Bannister WW
Ziegler BC
Ray AND

140
2. Torres EMP
4. Dice ARK
5. Umscheid AC
6. Mills KAP

145
1. Bontz AC
4. Koehn PITT
6. Dugan BC
Hockenbury ARK

152
1. Sanchez EMP
4. Miller AC
Barclay ARK
Schutz KAP

160
1. Terry ARK

171
1. Penka KAP
Weddington AND

189
5. Hoy AC
Winner PITT
Hoag ARK

215
1. Bean KAP
4. D'Angelo EMP

285
1. Bennett PITT
5. Dikin EMP
Henrikson AC

Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: alleyderek] #181789 02/11/11 11:33 PM
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BigPin22 Offline
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I believe Jerimiah Jones is now Pittsburgs 112lber.


"Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners." Bill Belicheck
Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: alleyderek] #181793 02/11/11 11:51 PM
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Wow, appreciate the post.
I believe this just really proves my point made in previous posts about the whole 5A/6A reclassification/losing records/etc. nonsense thing.
I see one weight with 7 kids with like 20 plus wins and that is 103, imagine that. Would be interested to know what the record is of the 8th kid. But I doubt that there are many of those precious 16 man 4A and 3/2/1A brackets with 7 or 8 kids that have 20 plus ones but I could be wrong.
Like I said, I don't care about quantity, it's quality that counts.
I would bet there will be some kids staying home state week at 103, 119 and 135 that would qualify in 4A and/or 3/2/1A but again, I suppose that I could be wrong.
If you posted the 6A Campus regional you will have a similar situation.

Last edited by XGHSWC; 02/11/11 11:52 PM.
Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: XGHSWC] #181802 02/12/11 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: XGHSWC
Wow, appreciate the post.
I believe this just really proves my point made in previous posts about the whole 5A/6A reclassification/losing records/etc. nonsense thing.
I see one weight with 7 kids with like 20 plus wins and that is 103, imagine that. Would be interested to know what the record is of the 8th kid. But I doubt that there are many of those precious 16 man 4A and 3/2/1A brackets with 7 or 8 kids that have 20 plus ones but I could be wrong.
Like I said, I don't care about quantity, it's quality that counts.
I would bet there will be some kids staying home state week at 103, 119 and 135 that would qualify in 4A and/or 3/2/1A but again, I suppose that I could be wrong.
If you posted the 6A Campus regional you will have a similar situation.


Well here are some brackets for you to look at from last year's regionals in 321A and 4A.

Here's a bracket with 9 wrestlers with 20 wins or more.
http://regionals.usd211.org/live/regionalroswt008.htm

Here's a bracket with 8 wrestlers with 20 wins or more.
http://regionals.usd211.org/live/regionalroswt009.htm

Here's a bracket with 7 wrestlers with 20 wins or more. There were 2 other wrestlers in the bracket who had won 2/3s of their matches.
http://regionals.usd211.org/live/regionalroswt013.htm

Here's another bracket with 8 wrestlers with 20 wins or more.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/rossville/rossvillroswt005.htm

Here's a bracket with 7 wrestlers with 20 plus wins and another with 19 wins, that is 72% of the bracket with winning records.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/pratt/prattroswt008.htm

Here's a bracket with 7 wrestlers with 20 plus wins and 3 of those wrestlers had over 30 wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/chanute/chanuteroswt010.htm

Here's a bracket with 7 wrestlers with 20 plus wins and 81% of the bracket has winning records.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/chanute/chanuteroswt013.htm


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Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: BigPin22] #181893 02/13/11 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted By: BigPin22
I believe Jerimiah Jones is now Pittsburgs 112lber.

Jeremiah is Pittsburgs 112 pounder. He looked good in his first matches of the season. Both way of pin. This regional looks tough, I think some kids are going to have to stay home that should be going to state, but got put in a tough regionals. Good luck to all!

Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: Peterson] #182014 02/14/11 02:36 AM
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Nice work Ricky, I commend you for taking my "challenge" here. At least apparently that is what you must have thought it was since you were compelled to respond. If I could reach you, I would give you a big ole pat on the back.

But only 7 brackets for all of 3/2/1A and 4A. I said not too many and 7 really isn't that many.

Sorry to be so belated with my response. I wasn't going to respond at all because I didn't think it would help. It would just stir the pot and create more comments that I would then have to respond to. But the more I thought about, I figured that you at least deserved some kind of response, especially after you put so much effort into digging up those brackets. So therefore what I was trying to avoid by not responding will surely come to fruition now. But like I said, I figured I owed you that.

Three of the brackets came from Norton, no surprise there as that regional is always the toughest in 3/2/1A and traditionally a beast. I don't want to be a d..k but honestly most of those kids are not that high caliber and there level of competition is low. I really don't want to be disrespectful, but that is really the way I see it. I am sure if you research their level of competition, etc. you would find that to be the case. How many were ranked or placed at state? How many were even anywhere close to cracking some kind of All Class Rankings?

Also couldn't help but notice that none of the only three precious 4A brackets that you provided were 16 man as they were 11, 13 and 11. Not really a lot more than 8. In fact, the average bracket size of all the 4A brackets is less 11.4. So much for the wah, wah, wah, 4A has to have 16 man brackets so 5A and 6A should too so obviously we should combine 5A and 6A.

But we can talk more about all of this later as I am positive that it will come up again after state.

Best wishes to all and to all a good day.

Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: XGHSWC] #182016 02/14/11 02:56 AM
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I just looked at 5A Newton and didnt see a bracket with more than 3 kids with 20 or more wins, not gonna take the time to look at others, so whats your point.


Scott Biddle
Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: S Biddle] #182019 02/14/11 03:55 AM
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Well, let's see, if you must know....

Point 1 - Talk of combining 5A and 6A to make it "fair" is ridiculous and anyone who believes that is either:
a) uneducated
b) in denial
c) both
d) neither but don't want to admit the truth to anyone

Point 2 - Losing records at state is not due to weak classes but is due to weak regionals so therefore combining classes is not the solution and balancing regionals is, but once again....they are regionals aren't they.

Point 3 - Overall the caliber of wrestlers and level of competition in 3/2/1A is lower than 4A, 5A and 6A. Sorry to be a hater and really not trying to be disrespectful but I am tired of hearing the crap. It just is what it is. Back in the day, 3/2/1A was as tough if not tougher than the others, but I am just sorry to say, times have changed. There are some great 3/2/1A wrestlers, good as any, but overall not the case.

Point 4 - 4A is not tougher than 5A or 6A as everyone in 4A wants to believe. Once again sorry to be a hater and really not trying to be disrespectful but I am tired of hearing the crap. And once again, in the past it was, but once again I am just sorry to say, times have changed.

Point 5 - The whole 16 man regional thing is over played, played out and actually somewhat misleading.

60% of the top teams and top wrestlers are in 5A and 6A, 30% are in 4A and 10% are in 3/2/1A.

And now all I suppose there is left to say is, "let it fly" as I am sure you and/or others will.

Last edited by XGHSWC; 02/14/11 02:39 PM.
Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: S Biddle] #182021 02/14/11 04:52 AM
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Ricky Bobby Offline
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Originally Posted By: S Biddle
I just looked at 5A Newton and didnt see a bracket with more than 3 kids with 20 or more wins, not gonna take the time to look at others, so whats your point.


Scott,

I also looked at the brackets from Newton last year, which was one of three 5A or 6A regionals that had records on the brackets. There was one bracket with 4 kids who had 20 wins or more and that was at 103.


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Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: Ricky Bobby] #182022 02/14/11 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted By: XGHSWC
Nice work Ricky, I commend you for taking my "challenge" here. At least apparently that is what you must have thought it was since you were compelled to respond. If I could reach you, I would give you a big ole pat on the back.

But only 7 brackets for all of 3/2/1A and 4A. I said not too many and 7 really isn't that many.

Sorry to be so belated with my response. I wasn't going to respond at all because I didn't think it would help. It would just stir the pot and create more comments that I would then have to respond to. But the more I thought about, I figured that you at least deserved some kind of response, especially after you put so much effort into digging up those brackets. So therefore what I was trying to avoid by not responding will surely come to fruition now. But like I said, I figured I owed you that.

Three of the brackets came from Norton, no surprise there as that regional is always the toughest in 3/2/1A and traditionally a beast. I don't want to be a d..k but honestly most of those kids are not that high caliber and there level of competition is low. I really don't want to be disrespectful, but that is really the way I see it. I am sure if you research their level of competition, etc. you would find that to be the case. How many were ranked or placed at state? How many were even anywhere close to cracking some kind of All Class Rankings?

Also couldn't help but notice that none of the only three precious 4A brackets that you provided were 16 man as they were 11, 13 and 11. Not really a lot more than 8. In fact, the average bracket size of all the 4A brackets is less 11.4. So much for the wah, wah, wah, 4A has to have 16 man brackets so 5A and 6A should too so obviously we should combine 5A and 6A.

But we can talk more about all of this later as I am positive that it will come up again after state.

Best wishes to all and to all a good day.


X,

Yes, I did take the time to look at the brackets because your previous statement about 5A and 6A regionals being more difficult than 4A and 321A struck a nerve because you were making an "off the cuff" statement with no data to back it up.

I'd like to point out that I couldn't look at the Hoisington and Holton regionals because the sites are no longer on the internet. In addition I could not view the 215 or 285 lb brackets because of an apparent glitch. Losing those two regionals and weight classes combined for 40 brackets I could not view.

That means 7 out of 72 brackets were listed in my previous post for being difficult because of wins or winning percentage. This is roughly 10 percent of brackets in 321A and 4A being nearly as "difficult" as the state championships.

Just to make a estimate on the number of brackets that I was not able to view I would say that 4 more brackets would have 8 wrestlers with near or at 20 wins.

Here is a bracket that had 5 wrestlers with 20 plus wins in 6A.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/mhs/mhsbrk013.htm

By your logic it was not a tough bracket because none of the wrestlers were ranked in the Chief's All-Class Rankings at the time of the tournament. (Note: Alex Chaparro of Wichita East ended the year ranked 7th in All-Class after his state tournament performance.)

Of the 7 brackets I showed you, 6 had a wrestler who was ranked in the All-Class standings at the time of Regionals and then after State. In one of those brackets two wrestlers exchanged who was ranked in All-Class.

I'll show you some brackets from the three 5A and 6A regionals that had records attached to the results.

Here is another bracket with 5 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk010.htm

Here is a bracket with 4 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk013.htm

Here is a bracket with 4 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk011.htm

The 103 bracket was the only one with 4 wrestlers who had 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/images/docs/Results/10TournResults/newtonregional.pdf

In all that is 5 brackets out of 42 with half the wrestlers having 20 plus wins. That is around 12% with "quality" competition. Now I could go and look back at the 4A and 321A brackets that are available and come up with similar numbers, but I don't think it will prove anything.

The whole argument/debate of perceived toughness of qualifying in 5A or 6A lies in brackets like this that have 4 total wrestlers and only one has a winning record.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk002.htm

On a side note, the mark of 20 wins is not exactly a way to clarify if a wrestler is going to produce at state. Often at 103 and 285 you will see wrestlers with inflated records because they have accepted opens in duals throughout the season. In addition a number of high school wrestlers miss competition dates throughout the season due to injury, illness, or other reasons. For instance on one of the brackets I looked at it included Daniel Deshazer of Wichita Heights who did not have 20 wins coming into regionals because of injury problems. Deshazer not having 20 wins kept me from counting that bracket.

With today's wrestling tournament schedules 20 wins is much easier to happen across because many teams are going to pool or dual format tournaments. This helps to achieve more mat time utilizing the 30 participation points and in many cases equates to higher win totals for wrestlers. I guess what I'm trying to get at is don't get too hung up on the 20 win mark especially when the wrestler's record is close to .500. Now if they have 30 wins that's a different story.

Last edited by Ricky Bobby; 02/14/11 05:03 AM. Reason: Posting Links

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Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: Ricky Bobby] #182031 02/14/11 11:11 AM
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WEIGHT - NAME - SCHOOL - WIN - LOSS - GRADE - WIN %
103 - Zac Gentzler - ACENTRAL - 31 - 1 - 10 - 96.88%
103 - Kael Knowlen - ANDOVER - 30 - 5 - 9 - 85.71%
103 - Dalton Dietrich - ARKCITY - 20 - 9 - 10 - 68.97%
103 - Jay Pacha - CARROLL - 2 - 17 - 9 - 10.53%
103 - Max Detwiler - EMPORIA - 13 - 15 - 9 - 46.43%
103 - Parker Howell - KMC - 28 - 4 - 9 - 87.50%
103 - Brett Cobb - PITTSBUR - 25 - 9 - 9 - 73.53%
103 - Aaron Sanchez - WWEST - 17 - 10 - 11 - 62.96%

112 - Ben Lightfoot - ACENTRAL - 30 - 9 - 10 - 76.92%
112 - Andrew Amaro - ANDOVER - 5 - 14 - 12 - 26.32%
112 - Michael Love - ARKCITY - 1 - 11 - 9 - 8.33%
112 - Ben Bradley - CARROLL - 1 - 8 - 9 - 11.11%
112 - Robert Torres - EMPORIA - 3 - 10 - 11 - 23.08%
112 - Paul Suhr - KMC - 24 - 3 - 9 - 88.89%
112 - Jeremiah Jones - PITTSBUR - 2 - 0 - 10 - 100.00%
112 - Qualen Camarillo - WWEST - 6 - 3 - 9 - 66.67%

119 - Joe Umscheid - ACENTRAL - 18 - 18 - 10 - 50.00%
119 - Trent Robinson - ANDOVER - 1 - 19 - 10 - 5.00%
119 - Cody Eastman - ARKCITY - 24 - 6 - 10 - 80.00%
119 - Eric Santiago - CARROLL - 1 - 5 - 11 - 16.67%
119 - Bryce Dakin - EMPORIA - 16 - 10 - 11 - 61.54%
119 - Tyler Dryden - KMC - 33 - 1 - 12 - 97.06%
119 - Austin Haake - PITTSBUR - 27 - 12 - 12 - 69.23%
119 - Isaac Delgado - WWEST - 9 - 11 - 12 - 45.00%

125 - Jake Gentzler - ACENTRAL - 33 - 1 - 12 - 97.06%
125 - Cole Gumringer - ANDOVER - 14 - 10 - 9 - 58.33%
125 - Colby Watters - ARKCITY - 26 - 6 - 11 - 81.25%
125 - Seth Sundeen - CARROLL - 8 - 12 - 11 - 40.00%
125 - Skyler Carlson - EMPORIA - 14 - 8 - 11 - 63.64%
125 - Lukas Maki - KMC - 33 - 1 - 10 - 97.06%
125 - Jacob Wools - PITTSBUR - 27 - 9 - 11 - 75.00%
125 - Davion Hill - WWEST - 14 - 17 - 12 - 45.16%

130 - Tevin Panzer - ACENTRAL - 10 - 21 - 11 - 32.26%
130 - Kieran Ritchie - ANDOVER - 12 - 15 - 11 - 44.44%
130 - Wyatt Villers - ARKCITY - 18 - 12 - 10 - 60.00%
130 - Luke Sponsel - CARROLL - 5 - 5 - 9 - 50.00%
130 - Tanner Page - EMPORIA - 5 - 11 - 10 - 31.25%
130 - Matt Friling - KMC - 4 - 12 - 11 - 25.00%
130 - Mario Corado - PITTSBUR - 30 - 6 - 12 - 83.33%
130 - Bryce Stiles - WWEST - 21 - 11 - 11 - 65.63%

135 - Luke Lee - ACENTRAL - 24 - 9 - 11 - 72.73%
135 - Darrion Ray - ANDOVER - 15 - 17 - 12 - 46.88%
135 - Otey Spires - ARKCITY - 1 - 17 - 11 - 5.56%
135 - Matt Ziegler - CARROLL - 14 - 7 - 11 - 66.67%
135 - Brandon Charbonneau - EMPORIA - 22 - 4 - 11 - 84.62%
135 - Christian Williams - KMC - 3 - 6 - 10 - 33.33%
135 - Aaron Seybold - PITTSBUR - 33 - 5 - 11 - 86.84%
135 - Antoine Bannister - WWEST - 28 - 2 - 12 - 93.33%

140 - Jake Umscheid - ACENTRAL - 32 - 5 - 12 - 86.49%
140 - Devyn Eggleston - ANDOVER - 6 - 16 - 10 - 27.27%
140 - Trey Dice - ARKCITY - 21 - 9 - 11 - 70.00%
140 - Scott Meyer - CARROLL - 10 - 12 - 11 - 45.45%
140 - Noel Torres - EMPORIA - 26 - 8 - 10 - 76.47%
140 - Alex Mills - KMC - 31 - 4 - 10 - 88.57%
140 - Jason Wools - PITTSBUR - 8 - 8 - 9 - 50.00%
140 - Eric Rice - WWEST - 3 - 14 - 12 - 17.65%

145 - Alex Bontz - ACENTRAL - 33 - 0 - 11 - 100.00%
145 - Tyler Stock - ANDOVER - 4 - 18 - 9 - 18.18%
145 - Lucas Hockenbury - ARKCITY - 15 - 17 - 11 - 46.88%
145 - Keaton Dugan - CARROLL - 20 - 11 - 12 - 64.52%
145 - Dylan Jackson - EMPORIA - 10 - 16 - 10 - 38.46%
145 - Tyler Dulaney - KMC - 13 - 2 - 11 - 86.67%
145 - Brent Koehn - PITTSBUR - 4 - 0 - 11 - 100.00%
145 - Adam Dunn - WWEST - 11 - 17 - 12 - 39.29%

152 - Josh Miller - ACENTRAL - 31 - 7 - 12 - 81.58%
152 - Alex Grommett - ANDOVER - 11 - 19 - 11 - 36.67%
152 - Keaton Barclay - ARKCITY - 16 - 16 - 12 - 50.00%
152 - Andrew Sperle - CARROLL - 11 - 9 - 12 - 55.00%
152 - Chase Sanchez - EMPORIA - 27 - 2 - 12 - 93.10%
152 - Alex Schutz - KMC - 12 - 9 - 10 - 57.14%
152 - Efrain Salas - PITTSBUR - 1 - 8 - 11 - 11.11%
152 - Nick Day - WWEST - 3 - 11 - 10 - 21.43%

160 - Corbin Niemtschk - ACENTRAL - 0 - 1 - 10 - 0.00%
160 - Jared Brown - ANDOVER - 7 - 18 - 10 - 28.00%
160 - Sterling Terry - ARKCITY - 30 - 6 - 12 - 83.33%
160 - Eric Morley - CARROLL - 7 - 10 - 12 - 41.18%
160 - Dylan Sammuels - EMPORIA - 15 - 13 - 11 - 53.57%
160 - Drew McDonough - KMC - 18 - 12 - 12 - 60.00%
160 - Garrett Brummitt - PITTSBUR - 7 - 9 - 10 - 43.75%
160 - Ricky Marks - WWEST - 2 - 9 - 10 - 18.18%

171 - Taylor Brown - ACENTRAL - 11 - 19 - 10 - 36.67%
171 - Hunter Weddington - ANDOVER - 32 - 6 - 11 - 84.21%
171 - Parker Cameron - ARKCITY - 6 - 5 - 12 - 54.55%
171 - Devon Keith - CARROLL - 11 - 3 - 12 - 78.57%
171 - Jerry Parks - EMPORIA - 9 - 15 - 11 - 37.50%
171 - Dylan Penka - KMC - 28 - 1 - 12 - 96.55%
171 - Brendan Maxwell - PITTSBUR - 16 - 15 - 11 - 51.61%
171 - Brent Powell - WWEST - 1 - 12 - 11 - 7.69%

189 - Aaron Hoy - ACENTRAL - 25 - 9 - 12 - 73.53%
189 - Jordan Ray - ANDOVER - 3 - 6 - 12 - 33.33%
189 - Kole Hoag - ARKCITY - 14 - 14 - 12 - 50.00%
189 - Forrest Jenkins - CARROLL - 5 - 12 - 11 - 29.41%
189 - Rakan Ashi - EMPORIA - 3 - 15 - 10 - 16.67%
189 - Nick Heiland - KMC - 14 - 10 - 10 - 58.33%
189 - Austin Winner - PITTSBUR - 18 - 10 - 12 - 64.29%
189 - JT Liggett - WWEST - 8 - 16 - 11 - 33.33%

215 - Sam Arndt - ACENTRAL - 12 - 21 - 11 - 36.36%
215 - Forest Scott - ANDOVER - 3 - 6 - 11 - 33.33%
215 - Matt McGrew - ARKCITY - 7 - 20 - 10 - 25.93%
215 - Toby Khounsavatdy - CARROLL - 0 - 2 - 12 - 0.00%
215 - Adam DAngelo - EMPORIA - 26 - 6 - 12 - 81.25%
215 - Luke Bean - KMC - 18 - 1 - 11 - 94.74%
215 - Gershom Avalos - PITTSBUR - 3 - 3 - 10 - 50.00%
215 - Nick Shivley - WWEST - 4 - 10 - 11 - 28.57%

285 - Matt Henrikson - ACENTRAL - 29 - 9 - 11 - 76.32%
285 - Zack Starbird - ANDOVER - 3 - 15 - 11 - 16.67%
285 - Zach Noah - ARKCITY - 7 - 12 - 11 - 36.84%
285 - John Morgan - CARROLL - 0 - 14 - 11 - 0.00%
285 - Nic Dikin - EMPORIA - 14 - 8 - 11 - 63.64%
285 - Roc Cyphert - KMC - 5 - 9 - 10 - 35.71%
285 - Broc Bennett - PITTSBUR - 31 - 9 - 11 - 77.50%
285 - Satchel VanArsdel - WWEST - 0 - 0 - 11 - #DIV/0!


Richard D. Salyer
Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: RichardDSalyer] #182051 02/14/11 03:42 PM
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Richard,

Thanks for posting the data on the wrestlers participating in this regional.


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Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: XGHSWC] #182060 02/14/11 04:26 PM
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X,

After looking at the 103 bracket it appears that there will only be one wrestler who will be sitting at home who might have the ability to place at state. The 5 wrestlers with 20 plus wins are all pretty "salty" and should make for some interesting match ups.

Besides 103 there are 3 other brackets with 5 or more wrestlers who have won 50% of their matches. The brackets are 125, 135, and 171.

At 125 the top 4 are pretty cut and dry. An upset could occur but I do not see those 4 ranked wrestlers having a challenge from the bottom half of the bracket.

171, squeaks in with 2 wrestlers being one win over .500. The top 3 are cut and dry to me, with one wrestler likely coming out of this regional and going to state with a .550 or lower win percentage.

135, is the one bracket besides 103 where someone will be staying at home who might have a chance at placing. There are 3 ranked wrestlers and 5 total wrestlers who have won 2/3 of their matches.

This is a good regional, but it is not overly difficult to qualify like years past. In ten of the brackets 4 wrestlers or fewer have above .500 records. That means there will be several state qualifiers out of this regional who have won less than half of their matches this season.


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Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: Ricky Bobby] #182065 02/14/11 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ricky Bobby
Originally Posted By: XGHSWC
Nice work Ricky, I commend you for taking my "challenge" here. At least apparently that is what you must have thought it was since you were compelled to respond. If I could reach you, I would give you a big ole pat on the back.

But only 7 brackets for all of 3/2/1A and 4A. I said not too many and 7 really isn't that many.

Sorry to be so belated with my response. I wasn't going to respond at all because I didn't think it would help. It would just stir the pot and create more comments that I would then have to respond to. But the more I thought about, I figured that you at least deserved some kind of response, especially after you put so much effort into digging up those brackets. So therefore what I was trying to avoid by not responding will surely come to fruition now. But like I said, I figured I owed you that.

Three of the brackets came from Norton, no surprise there as that regional is always the toughest in 3/2/1A and traditionally a beast. I don't want to be a d..k but honestly most of those kids are not that high caliber and there level of competition is low. I really don't want to be disrespectful, but that is really the way I see it. I am sure if you research their level of competition, etc. you would find that to be the case. How many were ranked or placed at state? How many were even anywhere close to cracking some kind of All Class Rankings?

Also couldn't help but notice that none of the only three precious 4A brackets that you provided were 16 man as they were 11, 13 and 11. Not really a lot more than 8. In fact, the average bracket size of all the 4A brackets is less 11.4. So much for the wah, wah, wah, 4A has to have 16 man brackets so 5A and 6A should too so obviously we should combine 5A and 6A.

But we can talk more about all of this later as I am positive that it will come up again after state.

Best wishes to all and to all a good day.


X,

Yes, I did take the time to look at the brackets because your previous statement about 5A and 6A regionals being more difficult than 4A and 321A struck a nerve because you were making an "off the cuff" statement with no data to back it up.

I'd like to point out that I couldn't look at the Hoisington and Holton regionals because the sites are no longer on the internet. In addition I could not view the 215 or 285 lb brackets because of an apparent glitch. Losing those two regionals and weight classes combined for 40 brackets I could not view.

That means 7 out of 72 brackets were listed in my previous post for being difficult because of wins or winning percentage. This is roughly 10 percent of brackets in 321A and 4A being nearly as "difficult" as the state championships.

Just to make a estimate on the number of brackets that I was not able to view I would say that 4 more brackets would have 8 wrestlers with near or at 20 wins.

Here is a bracket that had 5 wrestlers with 20 plus wins in 6A.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/mhs/mhsbrk013.htm

By your logic it was not a tough bracket because none of the wrestlers were ranked in the Chief's All-Class Rankings at the time of the tournament. (Note: Alex Chaparro of Wichita East ended the year ranked 7th in All-Class after his state tournament performance.)

Of the 7 brackets I showed you, 6 had a wrestler who was ranked in the All-Class standings at the time of Regionals and then after State. In one of those brackets two wrestlers exchanged who was ranked in All-Class.

I'll show you some brackets from the three 5A and 6A regionals that had records attached to the results.

Here is another bracket with 5 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk010.htm

Here is a bracket with 4 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk013.htm

Here is a bracket with 4 wrestlers with 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk011.htm

The 103 bracket was the only one with 4 wrestlers who had 20 plus wins.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/images/docs/Results/10TournResults/newtonregional.pdf

In all that is 5 brackets out of 42 with half the wrestlers having 20 plus wins. That is around 12% with "quality" competition. Now I could go and look back at the 4A and 321A brackets that are available and come up with similar numbers, but I don't think it will prove anything.

The whole argument/debate of perceived toughness of qualifying in 5A or 6A lies in brackets like this that have 4 total wrestlers and only one has a winning record.
http://www.kansaswrestling.org/shhs/shhsbrk002.htm

On a side note, the mark of 20 wins is not exactly a way to clarify if a wrestler is going to produce at state. Often at 103 and 285 you will see wrestlers with inflated records because they have accepted opens in duals throughout the season. In addition a number of high school wrestlers miss competition dates throughout the season due to injury, illness, or other reasons. For instance on one of the brackets I looked at it included Daniel Deshazer of Wichita Heights who did not have 20 wins coming into regionals because of injury problems. Deshazer not having 20 wins kept me from counting that bracket.

With today's wrestling tournament schedules 20 wins is much easier to happen across because many teams are going to pool or dual format tournaments. This helps to achieve more mat time utilizing the 30 participation points and in many cases equates to higher win totals for wrestlers. I guess what I'm trying to get at is don't get too hung up on the 20 win mark especially when the wrestler's record is close to .500. Now if they have 30 wins that's a different story.



Dang Ricky, what the heck?

This is exactly why I said that I shouldn't respond.
You totally twisted everything I said. Also I usually don't ever make "off the cuff" remarks. I usually put a lot of thought into everything I say or write. My opinions don't just materialize from nothing. They have been developed over several years as a head coach that has been and is in the know. It was developed from real life experiences over twenty years. And I have tons of data in my memory bank that was generated over that time period. I am not just some guy like you that had enough time and desire to go dig up data from the past but really had no real life experiences. At least that's how it appears.

I never said that 5A nd 6A regionals were tougher. I was really just eluding to the fact that 5A and 6A are tough enough as it is
and that combining them because they don't have 16 man brackets or they have losing records at state is ridiculous.

I certainly never said that you had to be on Chief's list to be good or tough, that is ridiculous.

And once again, the losing records thing is not an indicator of toughness of class but of toughness of regional as I have stated several times but the solution would be to balance the regionals but that is not likely to happen because they are regionals aren't they. And I have seen several 3/2/1A and 4A "16 man" brackets that had 6 kids. I never said 3/2/1A or 4A was less tough because of that. I look at the overall class.

And I am not hung up at all on the 20 win thing, it looks like you are though. You took that whole thing way too far. The whole inflated records thing is jacked up also especially when you are picking on 103 and 285. I have seen several kids that weren't at 103 or 285 with inflated records and they weren't inflated because of forfeits, the were inflated because of level of competition.

If you want to know what my main points are, they were clearly made in my previous post. That is what you should focus on but try not to twist it.

Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: XGHSWC] #182081 02/14/11 06:07 PM
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Way too much talk about what regional is tough or not tough. Some weight classes are tougher than others, who cares; same could be said about qualifiers for the NCAA Tournament. Everything changes year to year, not only in our state but every other state across the country. If a kid belongs at State, HE EARNS IT. This is what makes the sport great.

Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: XGHSWC] #182101 02/14/11 07:13 PM
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Ricky Bobby Offline
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Originally Posted By: XGHSWC
Dang Ricky, what the heck?

This is exactly why I said that I shouldn't respond.
You totally twisted everything I said. Also I usually don't ever make "off the cuff" remarks. I usually put a lot of thought into everything I say or write. My opinions don't just materialize from nothing. They have been developed over several years as a head coach that has been and is in the know. It was developed from real life experiences over twenty years. And I have tons of data in my memory bank that was generated over that time period. I am not just some guy like you that had enough time and desire to go dig up data from the past but really had no real life experiences. At least that's how it appears.


I've had plenty of real life experience as my documentary "Talladega Nights: The Ballad of Rick Bobby" shows. Shoot I went from a low level scab on a pit crew to the number one competitor in NASCAR to a pizza boy back to top dog in the Sprint Series in over a 10 year period.

Maybe I'm not the most knowledgeable on wrasslin', but I sure as heck know what it's like to compete with the best in the world. Heck I got arm broke by a French man, maybe I should take some lessons from you, Coach, on wrasslin'.

Originally Posted By: XGHSWC
I never said that 5A nd 6A regionals were tougher. I was really just eluding to the fact that 5A and 6A are tough enough as it is
and that combining them because they don't have 16 man brackets or they have losing records at state is ridiculous.


This is where making the 2 regional tournament system that splits the 32 teams in half and allows 8 placers from each 16 team regional would be a better method of weeding out the competitors who qualify with losing records. Make it to where some of the Kansas City teams head west and some of the Wichita teams head east. Sure they might have to stay overnight, but teams in the 4A western regional have been doing it for years.

I believe that former Maize head wrestling coach, Roy Oeser, proposed a format like this several years ago, so I'm not just blowing hot air.


Originally Posted By: XGHSWC
I certainly never said that you had to be on Chief's list to be good or tough, that is ridiculous.


In your previous post you eluded to the fact that the original 7 brackets I showed did not appear to have good competition in them because there were no All-Class ranked wrestlers. I'll post it below so you can refresh your immaculate memory bank.

Originally Posted By: XGHSWC
I don't want to be a d..k but honestly most of those kids are not that high caliber and there level of competition is low. I really don't want to be disrespectful, but that is really the way I see it. I am sure if you research their level of competition, etc. you would find that to be the case. How many were ranked or placed at state? How many were even anywhere close to cracking some kind of All Class Rankings?


Sounds like you hit the nail on the head with that comment...NOT.

Well, I better be hittin'' the dusty trail I can hear the asphalt oval calling me in Daytona, I've got to get ready for the 500 on Sunday.


[Linked Image from media1.tenor.com]
Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: Ricky Bobby] #182105 02/14/11 07:21 PM
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Brent Lane Offline
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Be careful how you characterize losing records, there are some good wrestlers with losing records, maybe they have really good competition week in and week out. Maybe they are close to .500%, or maybe they are 1-20. It's important to distinguish here what a losing record is, anyone can have a good/bad weekend and find there way to the state tournament, that's what great about this time of year. It's unfortunate there are so many quality wrestlers in the same regional but they have to win it sometime.


"If it is to be, it is up to me!"
Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: XGHSWC] #182161 02/14/11 11:47 PM
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up4wrestling Offline
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Originally Posted By: XGHSWC
Well, let's see, if you must know....

Point 1 - Talk of combining 5A and 6A to make it "fair" is ridiculous and anyone who believes that is either:
a) uneducated
b) in denial
c) both
d) neither but don't want to admit the truth to anyone

Point 2 - Losing records at state is not due to weak classes but is due to weak regionals so therefore combining classes is not the solution and balancing regionals is, but once again....they are regionals aren't they.

Point 3 - Overall the caliber of wrestlers and level of competition in 3/2/1A is lower than 4A, 5A and 6A. Sorry to be a hater and really not trying to be disrespectful but I am tired of hearing the crap. It just is what it is. Back in the day, 3/2/1A was as tough if not tougher than the others, but I am just sorry to say, times have changed. There are some great 3/2/1A wrestlers, good as any, but overall not the case.

Point 4 - 4A is not tougher than 5A or 6A as everyone in 4A wants to believe. Once again sorry to be a hater and really not trying to be disrespectful but I am tired of hearing the crap. And once again, in the past it was, but once again I am just sorry to say, times have changed.

Point 5 - The whole 16 man regional thing is over played, played out and actually somewhat misleading.

60% of the top teams and top wrestlers are in 5A and 6A, 30% are in 4A and 10% are in 3/2/1A.

And now all I suppose there is left to say is, "let it fly" as I am sure you and/or others will.


Ok...went back and had..... a friend check the percentages due to the fact that I am no mathematiton.

When basing the percentages off of the list Chiefs All Class Rankings for the wrestlers and not off of the teams. The following is what we came up with:

1,23A has 25 ranked wrestlers 18%
4A has 44 ranked wrestlers 32%
5a has 37 ranked wrestlers 27%
6a has 33 ranked wrestlers 24%

If you group 5a and 6a together then not quite 60%... I would think you would look at each class all on its own rankings ..since you are judging 4A alone. Now , next you will say that 4a has a higher percentage of wrestlers overall...and that would lead me to say that is why we need a 16 man bracket to see who is the best of the best. Not going to dwell on this too long as I agree with Lazyman 1....and he who makes it to state deserves it! Got to LOVE wrestling....good luck to all competing!

Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: up4wrestling] #182187 02/15/11 02:25 AM
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doug747 Offline
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I'm no mathematician, but those percentages come to 101%

Since I am a 4a guy, I hope you take that extra 1% off of the 321a, 5a, or 6a numbers so we look even better........

Re: Ark City Regionals [Re: doug747] #182190 02/15/11 02:36 AM
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HEADUP Offline
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phone a friend didn't work out, next time try asking the audience.


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
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