Hey All,
I've been lurking on this board for quite some time this year. I've seen a few topics tonight I would like to comment on from an out of state perspective. I moved here from Omaha this past year and love wrestling. I grew up in Nebraska and attended several Iowa and Nebraska wrestling meets after my wrestling days. I would like to comment on the tournament attendance first then on the quality of competition at these regionals. *One thing I want to be clear about though is this is not a bash Kansas wrestling post. I think there is plenty of talent here. It's more about the organization of KS wrestling as a whole.*

I just decided to go to the 5A regional at STA today. I wanted to see some wrestling and heard they have a good team. I walked up and had to pay $8 to get in. For me, I don't mind paying $8 to get in to watch some good wrestling but I don't think there was one full weight bracket in this regional of 8 teams. However, I enjoy good competition so I can justify paying the $8 because I am a fan. Recently on this board there has been discussion about meet attendance and getting younger kids and families involved in coming to these meets. I am willing to bet that if a father had 1 or 2 kids in youth wrestling and wanted to bring them he would have cringed at paying $20 ($8 for adult, $6 for K-12) for something they would only stay a couple hours at most to watch since kids have short attention spans. Too high of a price to reel in the casual fan when they can spend $8 or $9 and go to a movie and be entertained for that same amount of time. I told my dad that STA was charging $8 and he laughed.
I know this may be minor but the minor things count when you are trying to make the sport more visible. When I went to meets up north I paid $5 and kids paid $2 or $3.

And it isn't about growing the sport in STA or Gardner some BV schools (as these are the only school I've seen this year). They will fill up anyway, it's about growing the sport in the other schools. KC Harmon and Wyandotte had about 4 kids each. Either way, if this sport is going to grow in this state school like that need to get more kids out. I know it may be difficult with their circumstances though but it's the truth in my opinion.

Now to the regionals. First of all I like the idea of less weight classes but how come the same size schools in Nebraska, Missouri and Iowa can fill the weights? It's a tough question and I don't know the answer other than good youth programs getting kids into wrestling early on. I'm sure they are around here but I don't have kids yet so I don't know. I grew up in a town of 5,000, had 400 people at my high school and we ALWAYS had a full roster. It's tough to pin point the answer.
But take the Salina south regional today at 120. I saw the #2 - #6 wrestlers were in that bracket and at STA they only had 6 wrestlers total. I don't know how feasible it would be but maybe reclassifying in wrestling is in order. Go to 3 classes and larger regionals. Again, I don't know if this is feasible but when over half the kids competing today at STA qualified for state, and I'm sure it is that way in other places, that is a problem. I heard one parent from STA say that 182 only had 4 wrestlers so STA put a JV kid into that class because he only had to win one match to make it to state. I don't know the accuracy of this but the number in the bracket did reflect it. Combine some classes and regionals and make it more competitive.

And finally, HOlD YOUR STATE TOURNAMENT IN ONE PLACE! Every state I know does this! Iowa, Nebraska, some said Missouri and Colorado too on another thread. It makes no sense to spread it out and pay for different venues. AND you fill it up with all those schools going along with parents and kids who did not qualify making the trip to. At least this was the case in Nebraska and Iowa, but we all know Iowa is a different animal. I loved going to state at the Devaney Center in Lincoln and now it's in Omaha and they love it there. Under one roof. Makes no sense to me to hold different venues, it defeats the purpose of the grand stage when you break it up. I suppose it has to do with travel distances but the panhandle towns in Nebraska travel 8-9 hours to Omaha for a 3 day tourney just fine. Kansas would be shorter. I heard travel distances is a reason why they apparently don't weigh in before tourneys here either, which is a whole different issue....

Sorry for the long post. I just had some thoughts after today and after reading the board. I don't expect to have anyone read this far so congrats if you did!

Matbraska

Great post... Agree with most things you stated.

I'm from small-town Iowa and like you we had full rosters and a full gym for all the sports. But we didn't have much else for entertainment....

There are some good kids programs. But a lot of districts don't have middle school wrestling and that hurts. Few or no duals makes it hard to generate student support. Kids will gladly bug out of the house on Wednesday night to go to a school-sponsored event, but to dedicate a Saturday...not so much. Without students in the stands, the crowds are pretty small.

It's hard to fathom that large schools would have an empty Varsity slot...but its common. I think its because the sport is just too demanding for today's youth. Getting a "letter" is no big deal. Do they even have "letter jackets" anymore? I guess I've seem a few. Also, some coaches I talked to can't keep kids eligible. If they are flunking classes they end up off the team. That policy might be outdated.

There is also the "Rule 10" coach problem, and I don't know how big a deal that is because I don't know how many Rule 10 coaches (coaches who do not teach in that school). Having a coach/teacher in the building makes it much, much easier to recruit kids for the team, particularly if the teacher is well-liked.

I don't know about the cost of admission running people off. Maybe some, but gas used to be 32 cents a gallon, for ethyl, and now its more. I still cruise the four lane.

There are a lot of things that are running kids off right now. One of the biggest issues is the simple fact that football coaches are not allowing or making it feasible for "their" players to go out for any other sports other than track. I had an advantage when I coached in that the football coach and I got along very well because I was always both of those guys. Now, I am sorry to say, football coaches are becoming poor stewards of the total athletic programs in their schools. It's not just football coaches either. Each sport is evolving into a ten month a year endeavor. Wrestling is the same way. For instance, if you have a kid that wants to be a high level baseball player, he is going to have to pitch or play in the summer and the fall. He is not going to be wrestling freestyle or going to football camps. If he is doing those things he will not be doing the other two. Coaches are making it very difficult for athletes to have any flexibility in that regard. They are giving them either/or options and taking away from them any other choices. That is a shame because you are not seeing the great athletes crossing lines and becoming three sport athletes anymore. Everyone loses when they do that, especially the student athlete. They will say they don't do that, but then they will do everything in their power to make life miserable for them if they don't devote their entire year to their sport. It is hurting the total athletic programs to a great degree. Wrestling suffers because there are so few college scholarships in wrestling, and so few economic opportunities that kids are drawn to football, basketball, and baseball for those reasons.

I grew up in Kansas and I am a big fan of wrestling, I now live in Indiana and let me tell you, they know how to put a state tournament on. There is no different classes in wrestling, they have 14 state champions, not 56. If you make it to state in Indiana believe me you earn it, only the best will make it. I don't know why Kansas don't come up with a better system. In Indiana you have to place in the top four in sectionals, regionals, and sub-state before you make it to the state finals, and then they hold the state finals in Indy at Canseco fieldhouse under the lights is what they call it. They have 16 kids in each weight bracket, they will each wrestle one match on Friday night, if you lose you're first match you go home, the final eight wrestle for the title on Saturday. one thru eight get medals and brackets. If you get a chance I believe you can see how it is ran on ishaa.com. Kansas state finals don't even come close to what Indiana does. I also believe that if you only had one class that you wouldn't see that many forfiets, especially in the regionals, sub-state rounds. Why not find out who the real state champion is in each weight class.

It's done a lot of ways in a lot of places. No matter how we did it here, and we have done it many different ways over the years, someone would come in here and tell us all why we are inferior. Indiana doesn't scare too many people in high school wrestling. Everyone has good ideas and different ideas, and everyone is a critic.

We are usually happy to see Indiana in our pool at the Junior National Duals.

Also from a former Kansas wrestler living in Indiana now. I'll put perspective on it. They do their tournament right, except they should have double elimination. Some good kids get screwed if they loose first round. Conseco field house is a great venue and they put on a show.

Just my opinion, but I'm not exaggerating when I say a quarter of the state champions in Kansas wouldn't qualify for the Indiana state tournament. Just put it into perspective, to qualify for state, you have to top 4 out of more than 75 schools. If you win it you have to the best out of 302 schools. Do the math. Its not like in Kansas where you got to state for being in top 4 out of 8. Or the best out of 32 like in 5a and 6a.

I checked the bios for the Indiana state finals and 90% of these kids have a D1 scholarship.

First I refereed 5 years in Kansas and reffed here in Indiana and I would say the level is overall slightly higher in Indiana.


I think the National duals is not a good measure of the level of high school wrestling. I know most states can't get their top kids to the event albeit freestyle or folk.

ok

I agree with most of what you said- but it really comes down to the kids and the parents. The football coach/baseball coach/ wrestling coach etc is going to start the athlete with the best potential to help the team win. I seriously doubt anyone would argue that a season spent on the wrestling mat would hinder any prospective football player- and if they did think wrestling would be negative- they might be surprised the next fall! The parents need to start thinking for themselves and start expecting their kids to work hard. The kids need to stop looking for the easy way out. Wrestling is not easy, lifting weights is (by comparison anyway). The bar rarely fights back, and you control how much you do.

I agree football coaches (and others) need to be much stronger advocates for multisport athletes, but the kids and parents need to stop drinking that koolaid and start pushing themselves to truly get better- not just go through the motions.

As far as scholarships are concerned- if that is what they are worried about- the time spent in the weightroom or the practice field would be better spent in the classroom or the library. There is MUCH MUCH more money available for exceptional grades and high test scores than any athletic successes. I firmly believe most of the time the parents are more interested in the athletic scholarship for bragging rights than for the actual monetary value.

Kyle you are preaching to the choir about football and about wrestling helping football players be better football players. There are about 500 guys out there that will get a kick out of that. I am one of the biggest advocates of that theory in the history of this state.

Problem is, there are quite a few football and baseball coaches out there that are quite willing to keep a lot of kids from playing that don't do all their camps, clinics, or weight sessions and they do keep them from being a part of their program because of it. Hell some of them are friends of mine and they have been doing it for a while now.

I don't think any thing about playing multiple sports is a negative. I think they should be competing in the arena all year round in three sports a year. The problem is they don't believe that. There are a large number of prominent football coaches in this town who would cut kids for not going to their camps or weight sessions because they are wrestling freestyle or playing in showcase baseball tourneys.

I am talking about kids at the highest level of athleticism here. I've coached forty two kids who have gone to college for four years and paid zero dollars for it. They were all football players. Those scholarships do not exist anymore in any other sports except football and basketball. Coaches who keep those high level athletes from competing in any other sports are limiting them and keeping wrestling from seeing them in a singlet. That is just the reality of it. I think that is dead wrong in every respect, but I know it is happening because I know a lot of the guys that are doing it and have done it. Coaches are worried about their own sport and they don't have a heck of a lot of respect for the other sports or what those sports can do for their kids. I think it is a horrible thing to do to them but I know it happens and up here, in this city, it has happened for a long time. Parents have nothing to say about it. I know that because I am one and I have seen it happen. It isn't right, but it is a reality.

I don't know about the accurancy of the number of wrestlers in the 182 bracket either, but it was not a JV Aquinas wrestler in that bracket. The Aquinas wrestler was Senior Jake Gadwood who has been wrestling varsity all year. Yesterday at this 5A Regional Jake Gadwood actually won this 182 division by pin in the third period and I believe he was behind by seven points when it happened. It was an exciting come from behind win for Jake and his Aquinas fans. Unfortunately the Kansas City Star had the box score showing Jake Gadwood losing this championship match this morning.

I think it wouldn't hurt if back in Kansas all the Middle Schools that had wrestling did wrestling during the same time of the year and then maybe have a middle school state or something like Oklahoma does. Some schools do 2nd semester middle school wrestling and others do it first...get on the same page there!

op great post! next year go to a 4a or a 3a regional, They do 2 day 16 team brackets you have to earn your way to state in the smaller divisions.

You are right over half of the kids in regionals make it to state. I get bashed year after year for bringing this up.

Last year in one regional 2 kids made it to the state tourny without even winning a match.

something needs to change.

I also lived in both Kansas and Nebraska and wrestled in both states. In no way is Nebraska wrestling any tougher than Kansas. GIVE ME A BREAK! You will see more headlocks at the nebraska state tournament than you could ever imagine. You happen to come from small town Nebraska where the town supports wrestling and you can fill a full team. Well good for you. There are also schools that can't fill teams in Nebraska, Iowa, and Missouri.

Yup!

I agree with this statement. There are definitely more college scholarships available in football which is the sport of the three Coach Westfahl mentioned that wrestling would draw the most athletes from, quite a few baseball players are wrestlers too. A lot of kids that go into basketball at early ages would be very good wrestlers. I do think that parents start directing their children more to football, basketball and baseball at early ages because they see more and larger scholarships in football, larger scholarships in basketball, and better potential economic opportunity in all three football, basketball and baseball.



I agree with Kale on the part about how most student athletes would be better to focus on their academics. My son has a good wrestling scholarship at Baker University but it only pays a little under 30% of the total expense at Baker University. This academic scholarships pay closer to 35% of the total. And If he had done better with his high school GPA and ACT score, the academic scholarship would have covered a lot more. Kale, that is great advice for any student and I think you are correct that for the average student athlete especially in so called non revenue sports like wrestling that there is more scholarship money available for strong academic performance and pursuits. I do believe though that it is possible for a dedicated student athlete to do both perform at a high level in both academics and athletics. It gets more difficult to do both the higher the educational ladder you go especially in college where other life distractions including growing independence occur but it is being done by very dedicated student athletes at both the high school and college level.

Kale, I do not agree with you though on your last statement that I firmly believe most of the time the parents are more interested in the athletic scholarship for bragging rights than for the actual monetary value. I really do not think that is true. Yes, there is a great deal of pride that a parent takes in their child earning an award or scholarship. And I know we all including myself like to toot our own horn to a certain extent. However, the number and amount of scholarships available in a sport definitely makes a difference to parents. I think we can all agree how important a college education is to a young person today. In this new global high tech economy a good college education is imperative. I believe it is only going to be more important in the future. The cost of college has escalated and that rising cost trend will no doubt continue. College expense is a major factor for most families and the parents and students strive for as much scholarship money as possible whether academic or athletic. I believe that the number and amount of college scholarship available for wrestling does influence parental support directed to wrestling at early ages. I truly believe parental support for wrestling even at the early ages would be stronger if there were better opportunities available in both the number and amount of college wrestling scholarships.

I think one of the reasons that the Iowa youth and high school wrestling programs are so strong has more to do with the availability of college wrestling opportunities available in Iowa. They have three D-I wrestling programs at the University of Iowa, Iowa State and Northern Iowa. Iowa also has many college wrestling programs at the other levels (junior college, other NCAA divisions and NAIA). I firmly believe that all of this opportunity to further their young wrestlers academic and wrestling careers in college adds greatly to Iowa parental support for wrestling and just adds overall to a very vibrant wrestling community in Iowa. If Baker University had not added a college wrestling program, there is a very good chance that my son would be at a Division III or NAIA college in Iowa today.

Kansas has been fortunate in recent years that we have been actually adding college wrestling programs (new programs Pratt, Newman, Baker, NWKTC, Bethany and Benedictine to join older programs at Fort Hays State, Labette, Neosho, and Colby). We have gone from four to ten programs. This really increases the college academic and wrestling opportunities for the wrestling youth in Kansas. I have personally seen this growth in the last four years of compiling the list of High School seniors signing to wrestle in College. The overwhelming percentage of these young Kansas wrestlers are now signing to wrestle at Kansas colleges. I have also been able to see so many of these young former Kansas high school wrestlers wrestling at Open Kansas college tournaments, duals in Kansas and for two of the last three years at the Kansas Cup. It was very inspiring for me to be in attendance at the first dual about ten days ago between two new Kansas college wrestling programs at Baker and Bethany. It was well attended by Baker University students and there was also a Kids Club from Louisburg, Kansas in attendance. Many of these Baker University students are probably getting their first exposure to wrestling and they showed enthusiam for this new rivalry with Bethany and you know that will be true for a dual rivalry with Benedictine College too. All those people would not have been there without these two new Kansas college wrestling programs. How many of those former Kansas high school wrestlers on the Bethany and Baker teams would be attending college in states like Iowa today or maybe not even atttending college?

That is why I am so supportive of our Kansas College Wrestling Fund. We all know how easy it is for college athletic departments to drop wrestling. We were all shocked a year ago when UNO did that. A group of us worked with USAW-KS to establish a Fund so that we could prevent this type of UNO situation from happening to one of our Kansas college wrestling programs. We want college wrestling opportunities to grow not die in Kansas. It will be so much better for the Kansas wrestling community if these college wrestling programs can grow. We cannot depend on government assistance or legislation to make these college opportunities grow. The Kansas wrestling community has to support this ourselves. We have to do this from many revenue sources (individual donations, youth/high school tournament donations, fundraising efforts, and corporate donations). I personally believe that our strongest foundation has to be from annual individual donors. Think of all the thousands of families and former Kansas youth/high school & college wrestlers. This should be the base of contributors to this Fund for it to be successful. I know everyone is not position to donate, but I believe most of us could donate something whether it is $5, $10, $25, $50, $100, $250, $500, $1,000 or more. I believe what matters most right now is that alll of us in the Kansas wrestling community become donors in 2012 now matter what the amount is that we can individually afford. A lot of people are not working today so this is probably a good day to take some time and write that 2012 donation. Make an investment today in the future of Kansas college wrestling.

Make checks payable: USA Wrestling – Kansas, Inc./KCWF, a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) entity.
Mail to: Mike Juby, Kansas College Wrestling Fund, 7208 Magnolia Way, Hutchinson, KS 67502

Randy,

1st- 42 full ride athletes- that is impressive. You must be a GREAT COACH or REALLY OLD !! Just kidding- that is really tremendous but . . .

Those are the type of kids that need to go out for another sport. Those elite athletes are not going to sit the bench when they would help the team win. I guarantee the coach wouldn't throw away wins to try to prove a point. If those types of athletes (Bubba Starling for one recent example) would play multiple sports- that would open the door for the regular joes to do the same and pretty soon you've got a positive trend growing.

It takes someone to stand up to a bully- it is unfortunate that in this case the bullies are the me first coaches and the ones having to stand up to them are the kids- but that is what it would take. That is why I think parents need to be part of this solution- they need to advocate for their kids right to participate in the full high school athletic experience- not just do what one overzealous coach wants.

Vince, I agree with most- if not all of what you said. I should have been more clear with my statement regarding scholarships as bragging rights. I was actually directing this more towards the football side of things and the idea of a "full ride" as opposed to wrestling. Wrestlers know (or should know) no one is going to be offering a full athletic schloarship. Division 1 wrestling teams only have 9.9 scholarships for the entire team (if they are fully funded) which means there isn't enough money to go around for the starters- let alone all the redshirts, back-ups, etc.

In my years coaching football I witnessed multiple times parents being upset with college coaches who were not offering full athletic scholarships- but instead were working with kids to get academic money too. So much so that despite the student athletes wanting to attend those schools they went else where.

I had one parent tell me their son was getting a "full ride for football" to Highland even though I know they can not offer full athletic scholarships.

I had another student who was offered a preferred walk-on to a major D1 program who he liked very much with every opportunity to compete for the athletic scholarship and his grades were certainly good enough to get him significant academic money- but his parents pushed him to the Juco ranks because they wanted the opportunity for the full ride in a couple of years.

I had another athlete turn down the full ride to a D2 school because he and his parents felt that he should go D1. He also went the Juco route and eventually did earn the D1 scholarship- but missed out on competing for national titles and playing close to home.

This does not include the parents who would talk about their VERY AVERAGE athlete like he was D1 material- and would then be mad because they didn't get offers for running 4.9 40's.

All of these kids (and many more I don't have the time to tell their stories) had good football careers and great memories from playing high school football- but parents blinded by the need to get the "full ride" often times made their senior years unpleasant experiences. That is what I was referring to.

Trust me- I hope my kids can get some scholarships- no telling how expensive college will be 15 & 17 years from now! We'll focus on the academics and have some fun in the athletics (hopefully). If they are my kids- and people tell me they look like me- no one is going to be knocking down their door to play football or basketball! Not too many needs for short, not too fast athletes at the next level!!!!

Kyle you are kind of misunderstanding what I am saying or what I am trying to say. There are a lot of coaches in this town that are prohibiting their kids they coach from going out for other sports. They are, for all intents and purposes, hording players. They make it so very difficult for any of their kids, football most of all, getting on the field if they don't attend camps (which some of the high school coaches are being paid for if they bring a certain amount of players) and if they do not attend a high enough percentage of weight sessions or 7 on 7 tourneys. If a kid is wrestling free style or playing on showcase baseball teams (and some of those high level athletes have a chance to be money players, there were seven draft choices in the city last year alone and none of them except for Bubba, were multiple sport athletes). The day of the three sport athlete is over. Wrestlers who are not able to devote eight to nine months to wrestling or football players who are not willing to devote all their summer time to weights and weekend camps and seven on seven leagues are basically not able participate in more than one sport. I coached the Greene brothers in high school. They were the fastest kids in the nation both of them. Had we had the same rules that many of the Sunflower league football coaches have right now, neither of those two great athletes would have never had a chance to play football too. That would have been a shame. I think that is happening way to much. In an attempt to punish the lazy ones that are playing Nintendo all summer they are actually inhibiting the top ten percent and wrestling comes out on the short end of that stick a lot of the time. I think that is a bad deal.

The Bubba Starlings of the world used to be the norm, now they are the exception. Dehner was smart enough to see the deal, there are a lot of coaches that aren't and a lot of kids pay the price for that.

By the way, I am pretty old.