First off I want to congratulate this years Ark City 5a State Champions, A few people on the forum thought I was bashing you guys when I said "Ark City would not have won 12 titles in a row in 4a." That comment had nothing to do with your(this years) team and I am sorry if you thought it did.

This post is not to bash 5a it is to simply show that a change needs to be made. There have been some great ideas posted this year. I am all for combining 5a and 6a and having a 16 man regional bracket, I do not care about a rankings list that one person makes or how many so called top ranked wrestlers would be in the combination 56a state. 4a, 5a and 6a team rankings proved that the people making the list are not always right.

As I mentioned before there were 44 kids with losing records in the 5a state tournament. Here is how they did.

Those 44 and a few extra with a 500 record gave up
57 pins = 228 team points
4 tech falls = 14 team points
10 major decisions= 30 team points

That's a total of 272 team points scored off of kids that should not be there.

Of the 47 kids I looked at
31 of them went 0-2
10 of them went 1-2 beating another kid with a losing record!
2 of them beat a kid with a winning record and still went 1-2
4 of them went 2-2 beating kids with winning records.
none of them placed.

It just blows my mind that kids in 3a and 4a have to win at min 2 most likely 3 or 4 matches at regional's to qualify for state And some kids in 5a earn a first round bye that automatically qualify's them before they even show up. Something needs to be changed to make the 5a tourny not have kids with 4-15 records in it.

zzzzzzzzzz

I know you do not like being told how bad it is, so go back to sleep.

you've made this point over and over and over.

you ARE the definition of insanity. just keep doing the same thing over and over and over, and expecting different results.

it's sad actually, i must be going insane as well, 'cause i keep trying to help you out.

Lucas. In any of these statistics classes that you obviously didn't take? You talk about 44 kids with losing records, which is incorrect. There were not 44 kids with losing records. FACT. Then you go on to talk about "of the 47 kids I looked at"....seriously? I looked at 84 kids in the 5A tournament. They went 78-6 in the first round. I looked at the state placers. The only matches they lost in the first round were to other state placers. That means that 6 wrestlers had to come all the way out the back door just in order to get on the medal stand. That's impressive. Get your facts straight first and then come back so I can give you another lesson in basic math.

uh oh firehawks sanity is in question..... don't try to talk sense into him, it's useless

Resistance is futile?

Larry you are right there were 45 kids with losing records here they are.
106
1.Kohl of Hays 8-20
2.Wathke SHEIGHTS 3-6
3.Irwin SSOUTH 12-16
113
4.Tornquist MIEGE 7-27
5.Butler TWEST 3-10
6.Pacha CARROLL 13-21
7.Turkali VALLEYCE 20-22
8.Morris SHEIGHTS 1-4
120
9.Brown MIEGE 9-18
10.Boone VALLEYCE 23-25
11.Walling LANSING 12-17
12.Gray MILLVALL 17-18
13. Beeton TWES 12-13
14.Sims BLUEVALL 12-15
126
15.Smith SHEIGHTS 8-9
16.Camp WINFIELD 8-10
132
17.Mulligan SHEIGHTS 12-15
18.Spurlock TURNER 15-19
19.Moody LIBERAL 9-12
138
20.Kotzias MIEGE 13-17
145
21.Walter LANSING 10-14
22.Garcia EMPORIA 18-19
23.McCarthy AQUINAS 15-19
24.Page ACENTRAL 14-21
25.Mizell SEAMAN 6-10
152
26.Laster LANSING 7-15
27.McCune VALLEYCE 11-13
160
28.Macoubrie BLUEVALL 8-16
29.Dyson LANSING 17-19
30.Camp WINFIELD 11-20
170
31.Eckman EMPORIA 5-11
32.Paxton MILLVALL 12-15
33.Hagenbeck SOUTHWES 12-15
34.Ward LANSING 12-22
182
35.Grado MIEGE 8-12
195
36.Ashi EMPORIA 18-22
37.Goode AQUINAS 9-12
38.Mahoney MIEGE 3-13
220
39.Swearengin MILLVAL 4-14
40.McGrew ARKCITY 14-18
41.Gardenhire HIGHPARK 15-17
42. Nunez LIBERA 9-17
285
43.Flemming SSOUTH 13-15
44.Gochenour TURNER 14-21
45.Pepper SOUTHWES 13-15

of those 45 kids 31 of them went 0-2 Larry Im waiting on my basic math lesson.

Who cares!
They all wrestled there hearts out and most are underclassmen that are learning a lot!

Get a life dude!!!!!

Larry maybe you need a Basic Reading class.

Did I say they did not wrestle there harts out?
s
3 kids in 3a STATE with losing records! 3 kids in 4a STATE with losing records! They had to win at least 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 matches to EARN their way to state.

5a kids made it before even showing up at regional's.

45 kids in 5a STATE with losing records something is wrong with that picture. You guys need to check your emotions at the door. A good argument can only be won with facts not emotions.

Okay, I will continue. Instead of focusing on the negative, I am focusing on the positive.

Ben Lightfoot - Andover Central
He lost first round to eventual State Champion Isaac Dulgarian from STA. He then won 3 straight matches to earn his medal and finishing in 5th place. Scoring some nice team points for Andover Central in the process.

Bryce Dakin - Emporia
He lost first round to eventual 4th place finisher Anthony Monares from Newton. He then won 3 straight matches to earn his 5th place medal and scoring Emporia some nice team points.

Wyatt Villers - Ark City
He lost first round to eventual 5th place finisher Logan Bjorgo from Blue Valley Southwest. He then won 4 straight matches and avenged his first round loss in the process to finish 4th. I am sure Ark City appreciated those team points.

Dalton Rodd - Andover Central
He lost first round to eventual 6th place finisher Dylan Cox from Ark City. He then won 4 straight matches and avenged his first round loss in the process to finish 4th. More team points for Andover Central.

Luke Weldon - Valley Center
He lost first round to eventual 3rd place finisher Brady Munsch from Salina South. He then won 3 straight matches to get in and win 5th place. Team points......Valley Center.

Garret Lee - Newton
He lost first round to eventual second place finisher Zach Callahan from Mill Valley. He then won 3 straight to earn his fifth place medal and help Newton with some team points.

Everyone of these kids could have packed it in after losing first round. Wrestlers are head cases. I am proof of that. Instead, they sucked it up and went to work. Everyone of them finished with 4-2 records and finished in 4th or 5th place. Nice job gentlemen!

Yeah 45. You figured it out. I am proud of you. Just thought if you were going to talk trash, you should have correct numbers.

And 5 of the top 6 teams in 5a. So it's easier to qualify in 5a, but harder to win. One class is always going to have something on another. You can pick the numbers any way you wish.

If your focus is on being a state qualifier, then 5a needs adjusted if the intent of the state series is to crown the state champ and placers, then 5a is as hard if not harder than any.

What is boils down to is some kids in 5a and 6a get to say their state qualifiers, when some kids in 4a do not, but after the first round it's all the same and there is tough kids every where.

Of those 45 kids that you just posted above, all 45 qualified for state the same way the other wrestlers in 5A did. Did some come from small regional brackets? Probably. Is that their fault, NO. They have no control over how many wrestlers are in their brackets or where those wrestlers come from. They also have no control over who they have scheduled matches against during the year. They compete the same as everyone else and they qualified just like everyone else. If you have to put others down to make yourself feel better, go ahead. It's sad. If there is a problem, come up with a solution, don't just whine and insult these athletes.

I am not agreeing/disagreeing with anyone, but LB's data is correct. I counted the same kids with losing records from the 5A state brackets.

There does need to be some sanity brought to the discussion---wins and losses are not the total story. I think most will agree that 5A (and 6A) wrestlers (from the bigger population centers in Kansas (Johnson County, Topeka, Wichita, newton, Hutch, Salina, all "G" towns out SW) wrestle better competition (mainly each other). A wrestler from these schools will certainly have a more balance record of wins and losses. A list of examples from LB's list.
Pacha CARROLL 13-21
Turkali VALLEYCE 20-22
Boone VALLEYCE 23-25
Gray MILLVALL 17-18
Spurlock TURNER 15-19
Garcia EMPORIA 18-19
McCarthy AQUINAS 15-19
Page ACENTRAL 14-21
Ashi EMPORIA 18-22
McGrew ARKCITY 14-18
Gardenhire HIGHPARK 15-17

Probably could add severall others to my list---good wrestlers who met tough competition all year. In fact, I imagine of these wrestlers placed at state!

The problem--one more time--is not the quality of the wrestlers--it the open round byes/the inability to fill the brackets at the regionals---and this is a problem in all four classes in almost all regionals. This is a multipled faceted problem. Several 5A and 6A urban schools do not/can not field complete wrestling rosters (wrestking is not a big inner city sport). Many 4A and 321A are just too small (enrollments) to field complete rosters.

Yes, There are problems. New tournament formats (dual state or Grand State) are not the solutions. Need to get more HS kids on the mats. Need more inner city wrestling clubs (lots of absolutely great elementary and middle school athletes in the cities who need to be introduced to wrestling). Perhaps KSHSAA could relax the restrictions on Co-OPs (let 3, 4, 5 ,6 ?? or more small schools Co-op on one team) with out forcing them into a bigger class (thus increasing the number of wrestlers).

Lots of problems and lots of good ideas how to solve them. Have to look at the big, big picture and then focu on finding a/the statewide solution/s. Just combining on 6a and 5A is not it!






for e

Can you not read? I did come up with a solution! Who did i insult?

Good facts are needed to make a good argument, you must be willing to see ALL angles. for instance the level of competition has to be considered when looking at those records.

You sir, are one track minded.

If you don't care about quality, and rather focus only on quantity, you will never have a good argument.

thus it's the same old tired stuff from the last three years.

what about football? do 4a teams get a bigger trophy because they had to play an extra game than 5a? Many teams make it to the playoffs without winning a single game until districts. I challenge you to take down your 5A state football championship patch, because 4a, 3a, and 2a had to play one more game than 5a. Somewhere in the state there was a 5a team without a winning record, in the playoffs. just a good factual argument right?

You talk about having a 16 man bracket at regionals. Cool, I'm all for that. However, if you combine 5a and 6a you will have FULL 16 man bracket for regionals!! Not all of the brackets in the 4a regionals had full 16 man brackets!! So now you are going to make it harder on the 5a and 6a kids to even get to the state tournament?!! And some that are good enough to place at their respected state tournament might not even qualify!!