There is not a match for true second because there are 2 qualifying tournaments prior to state. Most true second tournaments are to determine second place when seeding criteria may not have been a true gauge of positioning in the bracket. I.E., child 1 won Ohio state while child 2 was second in California state. Clearly the seed would go to the state champ, but perhaps the other state was tougher ( no offense to any one from these states just random examples)and the state second place kid from Cali is better. Tournaments that seed based purely off info submitted by coaches or clubs will wrestle a true second. Another example is a kid is seeded 1 based off being a national champ. Not every national tournament holds the same weight. Does the criteria of the tournament ask for what national tournament the kid won....not always.Or another example is in District 1 there was a kid (I will not mention names as it is a kid and I am not here to belittle any child) seeded 1 overall because his coach claimed him to be a high school state placer in the seeding meeting. Now if this was the only criteria for seeding at state- was coaches or clubs rankings, I would agree with a true second wrestle off. But Kansas has qualifying tournaments and in this process the kid did not even qualify for 14 and under state out of Districts.
Now however, Kansas state has two qualifying tournaments, subs and Districts. The emphasis is on winning these tournaments to draw better seeds at state.Obviously seeding is no guarantee on anything, one must wrestle to win every match. The seeding off these qualifiers does place more emphasis on winning these tournaments.
The down side to a true second, Is the kid who lost in the finals (and perhaps won every other match over the course of these 3 weeks other than this final match) is down and at perhaps an all time low and can be devistated. While the kid who just won 3rd place is coming off a tremendous high and is ecstatic. Who has the advantage here? Do the placements always work out to 100% flawless order. No, that is why the district match ups rotate every year. This at least tries to equalize everything out. Again the emphasis is on positioning yourself over the course of this postseason run at each postseason tournament to be able to utilize your talents and ablilty for a championship title.
Not to mention, then there is the parent who will want a true 4th because their 5th place kid never got to wrestle the 4th placer. You must beat who you draw and who you draw is based upon where you placed over the course of the last 2 weeks. 1 match at a time and focus on winning the match at hand.

couple of things 1) should probably have challenges for 2nd at subs, since the seeding is often questionable, and #1 and 3 go to the same side at districts 2) don't release the district matchups til after districts, this is what HS state does, so you can't sandbag trying to get the matchup you think you want, you just have to win and hope you get the draw you want. HS even goes to the extreme of having different matchup at different weights. more complicated? absolutely, problem solving? potentially. 3) don't get me started on "national" tournaments. how can a kid go to 11 nationals in a year, by definition there can only be one national tournament a year per style per age etc. just cause some tournament throws the word national on the end of it, does not make it the toughest tournament in the history of wrestling, is Rocky Mountain Nationals tough sure, Corn Cobb sure. but I will bet you could find some districts last week with a couple of kids at the same weight who could have won or placed at RMN etc.
oops sorry for the rant, but I do like my first 2 points and they may be something to be considered by the powers that be...

All Good Points, BUT!

Yes there should be a true 2nd. Yeah 2 qualifiers, but doesn't mean you will face the toughest side of a bracket. If you go in as a 1 seed, get beat in the semis, and take third, the kid who beat you wins it, why can't you challenge the 2nd place kid, if you never wrestled him? At state their is "NO TRUE" seeding. You're seeded by how you finished at districts. Doesn't mean you're the best, just 1st out of your region. Some districts are tougher than others at certain weights. Just the facts.

Everyone complains about 2nd just lost, 3rd just won, if they want to hold on to it they will SUCK IT UP or leave with 3rd. Only makes you stronger. ALL I'm saying is LOTS of times your 3rd placer is better than your 2nd placer, was just on the wrong side of the bracket.

round robin

I like it the way it is. Why start splittin hairs trying to get a better seed. It will make the day longer at the qualifers. There is very little difference between 2nd & 3rd seed. My Youngest boy went to tulsa nationals a few years back & we get there & check the bracket & he has #1 seed first match. Needless to say I was not happy. He placed third at the kickoff, but went up a weight so he didnt get seeded. He won the match by 1 point & went on to win the tournament. After that happened I looked at seeding differently. Bottom line you have to beat the #1 seed or a wrestler that beat the #1 seed to win. Seeding dont mean squat. The best six wrestlers will be on the podium & the seeding will not change that.

Good luck to all the wrestlers that made it to state.

so luellen you would be ok when your son and another kid that you know are the top 2 kids in the bracket get put on the same side because there is really no seeding. knowing they will wrestle in the semi finals. say your son loses and then takes third but you know your kid can beat the kid that got 2nd. that really doesnt bother you. is that what your saying.

Yes thats what im sayin. 2nd & 3rd not alot of difference to me. To get first you got to beat the best wrestler in the bracket on that day.........right?

sure whatever you say i guess. i dont agree with it but whatever you say. i really dont care at this age. highschool is what matters to me but to my son thats different. being in the finals at state is a big deal to most of the kids. now getting third for my son really doesnt mean anything knowing that the best 2 wrestlers in his bracket are on the same side. so if not getting into the finals isnt much different than getting third i guess that would be the difference to the kids. so for us we have got to stop thinking we know everything and say things like it doesnt matter to me cause its not about you its about your kid. just makes me laugh when people say something like it doesnt matter to them but we never hear it from the boys that are busting their asses on the mats.

I really do think that right now we have the right format. I think that maybe a ladder bracket might be better but I have been taking my son to freestyle and greco tournys for 5 years or so now and have yet to find anyone who really understands how they work! Also, I hear all the time that all this is for high school but really? Yes, after they get out of middle school then they will be in high school but all of these kids and parents and coaches are doing this right now and it does matter for them right now. "The future is uncertain and the end is always near!" Carpe Diem! I think I heard that in a movie once....

All this trying to get on the side of the bracket you want to be on, is this you or your boy??? Im bettin its you. I bet your boy just wrestles. Do you tell your boy that the reason he did not place higher is because of the seeding? Yea you do. Prepare the boy for the path not the path for the boy. Thats what I try to do.

well actually since you say this. my son is the one that asked how the best 2 kids maybe 3 best kids ended up on the same side of the bracket. so to answer your question it was him. i have told him before it really doesnt matter til highschool but thats what i think. he says no what if i dont even wrestle in highschool its about now dad. so for you i guess you have your path and i have mine. i didnt try to get on either side of the bracket. the way the state sets it up they decide on where the boys go. they say this district wrestles this district rather than just taking the time to sit down and seed it for real. i say the boys spend the entire season preparing for this event and the brackets are already decided just by throwing numbers out there. i know its almost impossible to get everything right. i just think we owe the kids a little more than just a number system. your right in one aspect my son does just go out and wrestles but he also knows whats going on and asks lots of questions.

Who the hell cares who kid is whose?

All I'm trying to say is state needs to look at a TRUE 2nd. Put ALL your EGOS in your back pocket. Make it a TRUE 2nd at STATE. Even if we do it nobody will care the following year!!! New year new kids!!!

My son has been on the challenged side of True Second numerous times, winning some and losing some. What i can tell you is that everytime hes lost that challenge he has avenged it at another tournament. Everything to lose and nothing to gain after giving everything only to come up short, pretty horrible odds to ask a kid to overcome.
As for state brackets i feel that every kid has worked thier tales off and deserve to be there. I would like to see a random pick for district vs district for each weight class and those picks not released until Monday after the district tournament. I was guilty of wanting on a certain side of the bracket this year and i was wrong. Wrestling is the truest sport out there and the fairest, whether they cut weight, are on the top of the age it doesnt matter when that whistle blows. The odds are not for you or against you thats why they wrestle so lets let them wrestle the bracket they are given and just be proud of them nomatter what. Thanks and good luck to everyone

mike pirl

amen i see it in my sons bracket..... a kid that should of been in the finals at his district placed fourth?????? really my son works his butt off to be the champion at all events but there are some that play the game in a different way

if i would tell my son to place third at districts to be on the better side he would prob. kick my a** thats one reason i dont like the trackwrestling we dont look till we make it

Everybody breathe! These are KIDS. Its hard telling whats going to happen. My oldest boy won district 3x. He has gotten the good side of the bracket 2x. The first time I thought we were home free. Guess what? We didnt even place. The kid we beat at district in the finals won state. The kid we beat in the semi finals at district took 3rd. Hard telling whats going to happen. We took 2nd at district this year and quite possibly have the hardest kid in the bracket 2nd round. Bad draw? Probably but I can't wait to see my boy go against the best Kansas has to offer regardless of what round it is. If he wins he'll have two more tough matches to win the tournament. If he doesnt it won't be the end of the world for him or me. This is practice for next year. I'm going to try my best to enjoy the weekend and watch some great wrestling. A first place plaque from kids state would be cool, but State championships in high school go on the permanent resume. Good Luck to all this weekend, and Bockman, in my family the finals at State was a bigger deal to Mom and me then Alex, although he did say he wish he would have won the match. Good luck to all this weekend except for 15 other 14 under 100 pounders.

well said just wrestle boys

not trying to open a can but back when i wrestled i didnt know who i was going to until i got there there i wish it still would be the same

like i said we all have our own opinions. yours matter to you and mine matters to me. our kids matter to them to. so i will go my way you all go your way and its all good. i dont hold anything against anyone for thinking differently than i do. i will not let my son run from anyone and really dont care who he has to wrestle in what side of the bracket. all i really care about is if he gets better and better. i think someone said it best in another post is they learn more from a loss than any win. good luck to all as im outta the forum for a while.

I have been reading this thread. These are just some thoughts that came to mind.

Many kids wrestle in Kids' Fed, some never wrestle at State, some wrestle at State and never place before they are in high school, some are State placers in the Kids' Fed and never reach that level again in high school, and some go on to have terrific high school careers.

High school does not have seeding from Regionals to State. They are paired against the other regions. Is this right, or could it be done better? The same thing happens in high school, you can get a good draw, or you can get a bad one. At this point, there is no challenging for 2nd. Either way, the wrestlers have to stay healthy, avoid injury, make weight, and not have a bad outing if they want to have a chance at placing.

The goal should be to make it to the next level to continue contributing to the sport, whether that means wrestling in high school, college, the Olympics, or just being an official or a coach. For those that decide their goal is to go forward and be a productive member of society because of the things that wrestling taught them, I am in their corner.

Placing 1st through 6th at State in Kids' Fed should be the other goal, just like it should be in high school. Just wrestling in Kids' Fed and high school will provide young individuals with a better opportunity to succeed at the most important goal, adult life.