Well Anthony Capul is as good as I have ever seen. This is a great athlete who will is very dominate now and will be for years to come. very well mannered and coached by the great brawlers doug eck. cant wait to see him finish this year as state champion in his division and the next 4 years in high school at whatever he wrestles

Democrats have your way of thinking Chief, if a person is successful and works hard even the playing field by making him pay more. If a kids works hard and is successful, even the playing field by making him wrestle up an age group. Just a thought.

The executive board has voted on this issue since we changed the 16U division to HS. At the time Beeson was on the board and he was adamantly against mandating that ALL HS wrestlers wrestle the HS division and not be allowed to wrestle DOWN to the 14U KIDS classification. The vote was carried to the state body. I modified the recommendation to apply only to State placers as a compromise and I believe it passed the Executive Board without any opposition. It was shocking that 2/3 could see that allow HS state placers to wrestle against 7th and 8th graders is not how you develop and improve Kansas wrestling. As Beeson said it is about opportunity to get better. You don't get better by dropping back and dominating those who didn't get a professional coach and five day a week practices for four plus months plus a schedule of competition that was the same age or up to three years older. Wake up! There is NO DEBATE here. The question is do you want develop wrestlers or do you want to discourage our KIDS. The Zach Campbells and Chad Beesons of this topic need to agree that is what is happening even if they don't agree with the rule. At least that way they can admit they are not willing to change to improve. I have been on both ends of the spectrum here, for every Ryne Cokeley there are 20 Sammy Cokeleys. The rule as it stands today is ridiculous and every HS state placer who makes a choice to wrestle 14U should be called out. The facts have been stated and my opinion stands.

I have a step son who is in the 8th grade in the 14U div. He was just in the finals against a 15 year old H.S. state placer, or at least that was the rumor in Ottawa. My son wanted the challenge, and won in a very good match. Should he have to move up to the H.S. Div? This was his second tourny back since he quit last spring. After losing bubble match after bubble match, he felt like his hard work wasn't paying off. This match might have been what he needed to relize that it is paying off. I am not going to sit here and say I agree or disagree. My younger son who has a birthday of 12/20, wrestled 8U last year as a 9 year old and placed 4th at state. I heard few comments about that. Whatever the case may be, Yae or Nae, I don't think we will loose any wrestlers over this issue.

I coached a HS kid this weekend that is wrestling 14U and he placed at HS state and he lost to a VERY good 8th grader in the finals. Also I know that Anthony Capul wrestling for Brawlers bumped up to the HS division recently and lost to a HS State RUNNER UP 3-2. So whether or not people think that HS State placers shouldn't wrestle 14U shouldn't count some 8th graders out. I believe in good competition just as much as the next guy and think even if they place in HS that shouldn't restrict them from wrestling 14U. But with that said that is just MY OPINION and I understand those who think they shouldn't wrestle 14U as well.

If you want High Schoolers to wrestle high school division, I get that. I just don't agree that the successful have to move up because of their success. I believe that either all 14U freshman must wrestle in High School Division or none are made to. Rules need to be made based on age and grade not on success or lack there of.

Exactly. This is the only way a rule like this would make sense and be fair.

Will,
I agree with you on this issue from this perspective....there is NO debate! The issue was brought to the state body and the state body overwhelmingly disagreed with you, Chief, and others that support this issue. As far as reintroducing this issue, don't we have to wait because it takes a bylaw change and once it is voted on you can't reintroduce it for a certain amount of time? Similar to the buying cards on line issue that lost a year or so ago?

Also, USAWKS does offer a state Triple Crown award. It is for all ages for 8u and up. Your idea would limit kids opportunities who have a chance to win kids folkstyle state and compete for the Triple Crown because they placed at hs state.

I also find it ironic that most of the people on here. Arguing

I also find it ironic that a lot of people on here are the same folks that complain about limiting opportunities for kids such as travel restrictions, middle schoolers not being able to practice with clubs, etc now want to limit kids and make it "more fair" for 14u non-hs wrestlers. What is wrong with giving the 14u eighth graders a chance to compete against the hs state placers? Let those kids have a chance to compete against the best.

Just because other states don't do this doesn't make it correct. Heck, a lot of other states have a special division for private schools.....a lot of folks supporting this idea vehemently disagree with the private school separate division.

Every year on the hs board there is debate about the class system and how "easy" it is for kids to qualify for hs state and how easy it is to place at certain hs state in certain divisions. Now a lot of these same folks are concerned about an unfair advantage for these HS state placers. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Chief,
Please provide evidence of how you determined the best wrestling states. What organizations determined this and what criteria was used or is your response based of polls from intermat, flow, etc. which are somewhat informed opinion polls very similar to the Kansas High School rankings?

What evidence shows that not having 14U hs placers compete only in a high school division actually makes those states better at wrestling? Having a hard time following the logic on that one.

Shawn Budke

Will
You are right, your opinion stands, however, it seems you are offering a lot of opinion as fact. What evidence do you have that shows we are losing kids in 14u? That is not a fact in our club. If that is a trend somewhere how do you know that the 14u are quitting only due the fact that we are letting a handful of HS state placers wrestle in the 14U division. I can only speak factually to what I have observed in our club and that really is not an issue.

Another idea that hasn't been mentioned on this thread...why are we going to disadvantage teams that are competing for team trophies at kids state? If a kid can win state at 14U that helps a team a lot more than if he only can place in the HS division. I know some only view wrestling as an individual sport but there is a team aspect to it that you cannot discount.

My position stands.



The 8th graders are getting good competition, thus making them better. Many 8th graders welcome the challenge and step up and win. The 14U division would be watered down if we mandated all High School wrestlers to wrestle the High School Divison. It is just fine for them to wrestle their own age group.



No one is sleeping.



You're right, you just happen to be wrong by trying to debate your side.



Sounds like very few are discouraged. I would venture to say that most embrace the opportunity. This speaks volumes for our 8th graders that are welcoming the opportunity to get better.



I don't have to agree, I am willing to change to improve. I just do not think that this is the problem or the solution.

That is just how life is.



It is not ridiculous, it is how the majority feels. It is unfortunate that you are in the minority.

These are not facts. They are the opinions of a few.

And just so Cokeley knows that there are no hard feelings, I will make this promise. When KSHSAA makes private schools that can recruit and buy their teams wrestle up a class, I will advocate making State Placers wrestle the High School division instead of their age group. Don't take it too serious, I'm just having fun. Love ya Will.

My evidence includes every other state. By definition that would include the best ones.




The governing organization of every other state determined this and purposely drafted rules that don't allow HS wrestlers to wrestle in their Kids divisons.




You stated that question wrong but more importantly, are you really asking that? High School wrestlers compete the entire year against their piers and then enter a three week series against 7th and 8th graders. That is your idea of improving their skills? As I have stated many times on this thread, all of your points that you have brought up have been brought up across the nation and have been found baseless. It is basically common sense and a bit embarrassing that we are the only holdout that thinks it helps our wrestlers.

The division was not made to help our wrestlers. It was made for a venue for wrestlers to continue wrestling for fun. In the process it does make our 7th (which I have a tough time believeing, unless they are redshirted) and 8th grade wrestlers better, by giving them the opportunity to wrestle high school freshman and sophmores*(again I have a hard time believing sophomores to be 14). The best wrestlers are off doing something else, kids state does not make them better, but it does continue to promote wrestling. Chief and Will need to see it for what it is and be glad it keeps interest up. The elite who are trying to get better are doing so, somewhere else. Let it go and enjoy the fact that some of the not so elite are still interested.

"Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius" - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Chief,

You still offer no evidence....just because every state does it does not provide evidence that it makes kids better. There is a flaw in the logic of that argument.

I ask that you look at this from a different angle. You and will argue from the perspective that this rule doesn't help make the very small minority of hs state placers better (not sure that logic follows either as there is no evidence to support that). However, for the majority of kids (the U14 middle schoolers) it does make them better because it gives them the opportunity to wrestle the most experienced, practiced kids in their age group. Why should we deny them that opportunity? You and will are the one's always challenging everyone to seek the best competition and yet you want to deny the middle school 14U's the opportunity to compete against this very small number of hs state placers....don't get it.

By the way, the rule as it stands now, does not force a HS state placer that is in the 14U age group to wrestle in the 14U division. The current rule gives them the opportunity to choose 14U or HS division. This is very similar to the USAW rules for the Junior vice Cadet age divisions.

At the national level a wrestler that meets the age requirement to compete as a Cadet and is in high school can wrestle Cadet or Juniors. We as a state take advantage of that rule all the time to fill our Junior Dual team.

Given your logic and Will's reasoning then you should support the idea that kids that All American at Fargo as a first year Cadet should not be allowed to compete at Fargo as a second year Cadet if they are in high school. They should only be able to compete as Juniors because it isn't fair to the first year 8th grade Cadet to have to wrestle a returning Fargo All American that has gotten to practice with his high school team all year and compete at such a high level.

Now I say this because I no you guys would go bananas if someone tried to make that rule for Fargo. Well I don't see it as being any different with the 14U debate.

Shawn Budke

You are not quite correct. A cadet is a modified Junior. Cadets can wrestle Juniors ONLY if they are in HS. Eighth graders cannot wrestle Juniors, if they do they forgo one of their later years in Juniors as you only get four years of Junior competition.

I am all about wrestling up and I would COMPLETELY support allowing a 14U 8th grader the opportunity to wrestle the HS division if they are willing and capable. This would completely satisfy your vision but not Beesons as he believes that it should be all about age. The other thing that could fix this is to go by the USA Wrestling age cutoff, Jan 1, 20XX. This would move almost all of the 14U HS kids now into the HS division. Once you move to HS you are NO LONGER in KIDS wrestling as far as I am concerned.

BTW, Have you gotten your facts straightened out on the triple crown?

My guess is that nearly EVERY state placer who is eligible for 14U is a Cadet.

Beeson 58.9% of the kids in 5a wrestled in the state tourney.