Tulsa Nationals, The Kickoff, Reno, all of these tournaments have the 15U division where High School Freshmen and Sophomores wrestle 7th and 8th graders. Over 35 States attend these events, so apparently not EVERYONE thinks that it is wrong. People actually attend these tournaments to get better and seek out competition.

Beeson,

Those are NOT state tournaments. They are national events and all run by Jack Roller not USA Wrestling. Give up, you are not going to change my mind and you are not going to find any crack in my list of facts. Furthermore, you will NOT find ANY HS state placers wrestling at TN as it is held during the HS season so you have once again placed a statement on here without doing your research. Where are those facts to back up your other claim? BTW, even if HS wrestlers compete in 15U state in OK, they are NOT HS state placers! OK also offers a MS State tournament sanctioned by their governing body.

Your opinion...Every HS team is coached by a paid professional that is registered with KSHSAA as either a Rule 10 coach or a contracted employee of the school. It appears to me that you want to insult the HS coaches in Kansas with this statement. Be careful. Oh, I guess you don't have to because no one has any idea who you are or what HS your kids will attend.

I totally agree with you. That was how the HS division was orginally set up. Beeson led the charge to allow the choice. I didn't agree with him then and I don't agree with him now.

Kennedy Monday wrestled for Stillwater High School and wrestled Tulsa National. Anybody know how he did at State?

Here are the FACTS: There is an agenda to get the High School and 16U division thrown out of kids. The only way to do this was to Create a High School Division. Eliminating the 16U Divison. Now lets weaken the 14U divison by taking out the best wrestlers. This also weakens the High School Division beacause not as many 14U want to wrestle High School. Numbers for High School are down so lets get rid of it. 14U is thrilled because they are the top dog now. Numbers for 14U go up, this must be a good thing.

Will, why did you compromise to begin with? What was your main goal to add High School wrestling to kids? I think we would all like to hear it from you.

Beeson led the charge because he thought it was what was best for the sport. You don't have to agree, but the majority of the state does. I don't know why I keep arguing, this will never pass anyways.

True

FACTS:

1. All 9th graders in KS are NOW HS wrestlers.
2. HS wrestlers are coached by a professional coaching staff.
3. HS wrestlers practice 4 to 6 times per week starting the second week in November.
4. HS wrestlers compete against HS wrestlers which range in age from 14 to 19 years of age from the first week in December through the last week in February.
5. HS wrestlers have the opportunity to compete for a KSHSAA state championship in either 321a, 4a, 5a or 6a.
6. HS wrestlers do NOT compete against MS wrestlers.
7. No 8th grader in Kansas has all of these opportunities.
8. No other state offers a USA sanctioned Folkstyle state tournament allowing HS wrestlers to compete against wrestlers in Kids wrestling (many due to the fact that kids season is ended before HS has finished.)
9. The USA Wrestling date of birth cutoff is ALWAYS January 1 for ALL USA National events. There is NEVER a case where a Cadet is allowed to wrestle down in the Schoolboy division in ANY style.

You tell me where any of these FACTS add up to it being okay for a high school freshman to compete against 7th and 8th graders for a KIDS state title?[/b]
So here we go....

2. Define professional coaching staff. If you are defining by having paid coaches then there are a lot of clubs that have professional coaching staffs. In fact, depending on how you define professional, some could argue that a lot of club teams have more professional coaching staffs than a lot of high school programs based on time committed to sef development, involvement in the sport of wrestling, experience, resume's etc. In fact, schools are much more limited on the level of "professional" coach they can hire due to the fact they usually have to ensure it is a teacher (I know, not necessarily true for private schools, just us folk in public schools).

3. 7th and 8th grade wrestlers are not restricted by all of the KSHSAA rules that you rant about on the high school forum. They can practice 7 times a week if they choose. They can go to camps, they can get private training. In fact they have a lot more opportunity when they are wrestling for their club than kids do when they are under the KSHSAA rules in hs or ms wrestling.

Some high school wrestlers do compete agains middle school wrestlers when they are in Cadet age group.

9. Irrelevant useless point. Nobody has used that example.

Again, get on the national talk forums and appeal to USAW to change the Cadet age and requirements to something similar to what you are proposing for us in KS and I will quit arguing with you.

Will's quote: I don't feel that ANY HS wrestlers should be allowed to wrestle 14U.

So are you saying you will not let Sammy wrestle Cadets at Fargo when he is a Freshman? He may have to wrestle an 8th grader that is in the Cadet age divsion that hasn't benefited from all the stuff you listed above. Personally, I will let Brock wrestle Cadets as a freshman and understand he will wrestle some 8th graders. In fact I a looking forward to him wrestling Cadets this year as an 8th grader and can't wait for him to get a chance to compete against some high schoolers.

What I really don't understand is where you are coming from on this. Of all people you are usually the one pushing kids and pushing the rules to make things less restrictive and encourage more opportunities to go and seek the best competition. I feel like we are living in a different world right now with your perspective on this.

Also, you can provide specific rebuttals to my other post and I invited them however, at least publically acknowledge that conceptually the breaking up of kids state and getting it over sooner was something you have been trying to influence for years. We talked about what I laid out over 3-4 years ago.

Bottomline: Will is still a good friend and I would do anything for him (accept support this proposal). He does a lot for wrestling and I greatly appreciate these healthy debates we have.

Shawn Budke

Will,

If you are only defining "professional" coaches in that they are paid then we have clubs that have "professional" coaches that the middles school kids can go to.

I think you are really narrowing the definition of "professional" just to fit your argument. There is much more to being a professional in anything other than just being paid. In fact if you research the definition of "professional" or profession you will find that most high school coaches probably wouldn't qualify as a "professional" coach because most of them are professional educators who get paid a pretty small stipend to coach wrestling on the side. They are guys that love the sport and don't do it for the money. We have a lot of club coaches that love the sport but do it for the money.

Nice. Like where your going with this :-)

Kennedy NOT Kenny. Kennedy was a freshman for Stillwater this year. Kenny wrestled for Tulsa.

I'm not sure what your even trying to say here. It's no secret that I lost to Akin, and I can think of alot worse people to lose to. What I said is that after getting my butt handed to me all year in High School and going 12-13 it was nice to wrestle 14U have some success and win a State Championship. I still had some close matches and it was a competitive tournament.

2. Define professional coaching staff. If you are defining by having paid coaches then there are a lot of clubs that have professional coaching staffs. In fact, depending on how you define professional, some could argue that a lot of club teams have more professional coaching staffs than a lot of high school programs based on time committed to sef development, involvement in the sport of wrestling, experience, resume's etc. NOT CLUB IS PRACTICING 6 OR 7 DAYS A WEEK. 90% OF THE CLUBS PRACTICE 2 OOR 3 TIMES A WEEK. THE HS PRACTICE SITUATION IS MUCH DIFFERENT AND MORE CONVENIENT FOR THE HS WRESTLERS. In fact, schools are much more limited on the level of "professional" coach they can hire due to the fact they usually have to ensure it is a teacher (I know, not necessarily true for private schools, just us folk in public schools). RULE 10 COACHES ARE HIRED BY PUBLIC SCHOOLS QUITE OFTEN SO THAT IS NOT TRUE.



3. 7th and 8th grade wrestlers are not restricted by all of the KSHSAA rules that you rant about on the high school forum. THEY ARE IF THEY WRESTLE MS WRESTLING. They can practice 7 times a week if they choose. They can go to camps, they can get private training. In fact they have a lot more opportunity when they are wrestling for their club than kids do when they are under the KSHSAA rules in hs or ms wrestling. NO CLUB PRACTICES 7 TIMES A WEEK. GIVE ME A BREAK. YOU ARE REALLY REACHING SHAWN. ON TOP OF THAT THERE ARE NOT ANY HS KIDS PRACTICING WITH THE CLUBS SO THEY ARE ONLY WRESTLING OTHER 7TH AND 8TH GRADERS. YOU KNOW THE PRACTICES ARE DIFFERENT IN MANY WAYS.

Some high school wrestlers do compete agains middle school wrestlers when they are in Cadet age group. I AM SPECIFICALLY TALKING ABOUT THE THREE WEEK KANSAS KIDS FOLKSTYLE STATE SERIES SHAWN. DON'T TWIST THIS! ALSO, CADETS ARE DEFINED BY A DIFFERENT DOB CUTOFF.

9. Irrelevant useless point. Nobody has used that example.
TOTALLY RELEVANT IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE THE CADETS IN YOUR ARGUEMENT. THE CHANGE IN THE DOB WOULD ELIMINATE NEARLY ALL OF THE HS 14U COMPETITORS.

Again, get on the national talk forums and appeal to USAW to change the Cadet age and requirements to something similar to what you are proposing for us in KS and I will quit arguing with you. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOPIC. YOU ARE TWISTING THIS ARGUEMENT.

Will's quote: I don't feel that ANY HS wrestlers should be allowed to wrestle 14U. IN THE KANSAS KIDS STATE SERIES!!!

So are you saying you will not let Sammy wrestle Cadets at Fargo when he is a Freshman? He may have to wrestle an 8th grader that is in the Cadet age divsion that hasn't benefited from all the stuff you listed above. Personally, I will let Brock wrestle Cadets as a freshman and understand he will wrestle some 8th graders. In fact I a looking forward to him wrestling Cadets this year as an 8th grader and can't wait for him to get a chance to compete against some high schoolers. I AM NOT SAYING THIS AT ALL. I AM SAYING ONCE YOU ARE IN HS WRESTLING YOU SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO WRESTLE DOWN TO 14U TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE DIFFERENCE IN THE PRACTICE AND COMPETITION YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO DURING THE PAST FOUR MONTHS THAT GIVES YOU AN ADVANTAGE OVER THE GENERAL POPULOUS OF 14U FOLKSTYLE WRESTLERS. GEEZE SHAWN.

What I really don't understand is where you are coming from on this. Of all people you are usually the one pushing kids and pushing the rules to make things less restrictive and encourage more opportunities to go and seek the best competition. I feel like we are living in a different world right now with your perspective on this.

Also, you can provide specific rebuttals to my other post and I invited them however, at least publically acknowledge that conceptually the breaking up of kids state and getting it over sooner was something you have been trying to influence for years. We talked about what I laid out over 3-4 years ago. I ANSWERED YOUR POST.

Bottomline: Will is still a good friend and I would do anything for him (accept support this proposal). He does a lot for wrestling and I greatly appreciate these healthy debates we have.

Shawn Budke

Another interesting FACT. Joe Smith, son of NCAA Champion, World Champion and Olympic Champion, John Smith won an Oklahoma Jr. High State Championship (7th-9th) AND a High School State Championship (9th-12th) in 2012. John, as a father and a paid professional coach for OSU, apparantly did not see anything wrong with his Freshman wrestling 7th and 8th graders. His son was able, because of his age, to win both State Championships. I see nothing wrong with this. Will and Chief, what are your thoughts?

Joe's opponent and runner-up, Boo Lewallen, also wrestled both divisions. Boo placed 2nd at both High School and Jr. High State. Their Age Group allowed them to do both.

Were the kids ducking competition? Obviously NOT. Were they out trophy hunting? I doubt it. Were they just wrestling their age group? Of Course, in both cases. Should they be called out? WILL? CHIEF?

John Smith is a very successful wrestler, coach, and ambassador for our sport. I am more than happy to follow his lead. I only need for this proposal to fail one more time since Jake will be in 14U next year and I would hate for it to get watered down.

Will, you know me better than to think that I will hide and let this pass without a fight. Watering down a division is not the answer, just ask John Smith.

I farted

Here is what I have observed in our club and info gathered from talking with other coaches and club directors....
1. We are not losing 14U participants because they have high school kids in their weight classes now.
2. I think we would have less young high schoolers wrestling in the kids state series and thus practicing by forcing them to wrestle a high school division.

Now down to the brass tacts....last year there were 15 kids that met the criteria and had to make a choice to wrestle 14U or high school. So we are going to change a bylaw for 15 kids.....really?
I know, that is 15 7th or 8th graders that could have gone to state in their place. Well life is hard. They haven't gotten that kind of pampering before and they aren't going to get it ever again. This is starting to sound a lot like everyone gets a medal mentality to me.

I will concede that most clubs don't practice as much as high school teams. However, when people constantly argue on here about rules that limit kids from opportunities that expose them to tougher competition..... Such as not being able to go to the Cliff Keen KickOff when wrestling in Middle School, HS teams having travel limits, etc and now they get on here and want to emplaced limits in order to water down competition I don't get it.
Kids in club wrestling have waaaay more opportunities to pursue tough competition, individual training sessions, etc than high schoolers. That is a fact. Now some don't take advantage of it, others can't afford it, etc. those are all irrelevant arguments from an organizational perspective. From an organizational perspective the opportunities exist and you have the choice to take advantage of them.

Bottom line is that we are talking about changing a bylaw for an extreme minority of the kids wrestling population. This does not make sense to me.

Here are some facts without the questionable definition of words (ie. professional coaches)

1. 26 9th graders placed at HS state this year.
2. 12 in 6A
5 in 5A
5 in 4A
4 in 321A
3. 12 placed in the 106 weight.
4. 2 placed 1st both in 6A neither are wrestling Kids
5. 3 placed 2nd one wrestling Kids in HS division
6. 6 placed 3rd 2 are wrestling 14U 1 in HS division
7. 6 placed 4th 3 are wrestling 14U 2 in HS division
8. 5 placed 5th 1 is wrestling HS division
9. 4 placed 6th 1 is wrestling HS division
10. Only 5 kids that placed at HS state are wrestling in 14U and none of them were finalists.
11. This topic has been debated for over a week and we are talking about 5 kids that placed 3rd, and 4th at HS State.

My question is this.... Do we really need to call these kids out, or make rule changes for these 5 kids? Is it not a bigger problem, that kids that place at 6U and 8U state this year, and their parents will have the nerve to enter them in open tournaments on Saturdays and Novice tournaments on Sundays next year and use the excuse of mat time. Which is the real evil???? Just food for thought.

Just a few more facts....

13 kids that qualified for HS state this year at 106 did not place in 14U last year.....

2 HS state qualifiers at 106 this year did not qualify for 14U state last year (they were eliminated at 14U districts)....

Some High School wrestlers that are wrestling 14U this year are wrestling in weights classes that do not exist in HS Division (guess we could make them wrestle up a couple of weight classes to wrestle HS division).....

6 HS state qualifiers in 106 this year will meet at 14U state this year at 110( If they can get past some 8th graders)....

Just an fyi on some interesting happenings elsewhere. Pa is eliminating the 14 under division from kids state. As of next year they will hold a junior high state championship on its own at the conclusion of the junior high season. It will be run just like the high school state tournament. This is believed to make a true state tournament for the junior hidgh kids. Freshman will have the option of wrestling highschool or junior high. The kids state tournament will be a stand alone tournament for 8under 10 under and 12 under only no junior high wrestlers allowed to compete

Mike pirl

Mike, that would be great for Kansas. The problem is we can't even get wrestling in all of the Middle Schools. Of the Middle Schools that have wrestling, we can not get them to agree on a season, let alone coming together for a State Championship. It would be nice, but some of these poor 8th graders would still have to wrestle 9th graders. That just won't do.