Will - I agree with your desire to improve KS wrestling and admire your passion. I strongly believe more mat time of similar and better caliber along w/ FS/Greco is a fantastic way of doing that. I don't think this topic will help improve our Juniors results at Fargo or our KS kids going D1. I mean we are talking about a small population of wrestlers wrestling 3 weeks/events and about 10 matches during ONE year of their career. I get that other states don't allow it but what else do other states do that we don't do that we should consider? I'd imagine there are many opportunities when looking w/ a wider lens.

If I consider all the opportunities to improve KS wrestling, the 14U vs HS, while yes an opportunity, doesn't seem like it would provide the dividends as some of the others you referenced. You mentioned Folk Nationals and FS/Greco State. I'd add in Southern Plains too as GREAT opportunities to get better. It seems that getting people to do these is much more worth the effort (read as has bigger payoff) than forcing 14 y/o-HS State placers to wrestle in HS.

Do you feel that allowing 14 y/o HS state placers in the 14U are impacting our ability to get numbers / goals you reference? Yes maybe but is it more than the many other opportunities we have? I can't believe these 3 events would hinder those goals so much and know you know there are bigger fish to go after. I'd be shocked if this were a top 3 item based on the scope alone. I say identify the top 3 items and focus efforts there. You know you can count me in to help.

I do think the few kids that really wants to be the best, will wrestle the best regardless. Most may say they want to be the best, few believe they can and are willing to do the development required. Why do you think that is? Doubt it's related to this rule.

I think our goal as a state (parents, coaches, leadership, etc) needs to be to convince them to want to be the best, make them believe they can be then recommend and identify the development required to get there. You recommended the path/development but I think we are missing the keys...desire and belief.

To me, forcing the hand or shaming kids in this situation has more downside with the potential to drive them away from the sport which would certainly impact those summer/national goals.

Speaking of goals, has anyone published those goals you mentioned for the summer events? If not I think that is a great place to start. It would be a good tool to measure our success/failure. Seems it has a much higher potential for KS wrestling than what this thread has.

Could anybody really understand the adults in charly brown?

I agree with your last thought and I think that is exactly why a wrestler would choose to wrestle 7th and 8th graders after they have been wrestling HS for an entire season.

It is also a huge conclusion to jump to when you say that these few will NOT wrestle at all if the rules were different. Again, I offer splitting the HS group into Cadets and Juniors for those in 9th-12th to comply with the USA Wrestling age structure to begin summer preparation now rather than later. If you really want numbers then offer Cadet and Junior USA FLK State the weekend after HS state or 2nd weekend. The three week series, for the HS division, way too long. You will be VERY lucky to get 10 matches in three weeks. To answer your question more directly, YES I am willing to see a handful or two of kids sit at home if they feel they don't want to wrestle HS division after having completed a whole season of such in order to have a level playing field for 7th and 8th graders. NO, I do not think they will quit the sport. YES, I agree that this situation will not make the greatest impact. There are other ideas but I DO BELIEVE WE NEED CLARITY ON THIS TOPIC! A HS wrestler is a HS wrestler which should make them ineligible to wrestle in a division that is primarily MS kids. Most of these kids get ONE shot at winning a Kids State title and I think it is a disservice to them by allowing this unfair advantage of HS wrestlers dipping DOWN into the KIDS division.

Summer leadership needs to work together, I agree. You and I have talked about the issues and solutions there.

In the HS Division Chad! I know you have trouble with much of this reasoning but surely you grasp that portion.

Then lets try one more thought. It's not 7th, 8th, and 9th graders. The majority are 8th and 9th graders. Any 7th grader that is wrestling 14U is already at a significant advantage as they will be the Seniors that are 18 at the beginning of their Sr. year and 19 by wrestling season. Let's call a Spade a Spade, they are Red Shirts and are the Same Age as the 8th Graders. They have taken advantage of the system and when they are 8th graders they will be the same age as the 9th graders you are trying to shame.

This speaks volumes. Get rid of the 9th graders and it will be a division of 8th graders. The one chance to win a State Championship will be totally diluted. The rest of the State Champions will have a TWO YEAR DIFFERENCE. The 14U group will be full of 13 year old kids and 14 year old kids that have cheated the system already by RED SHIRTING. Pussification at it's finest.

It has been brought to my attention by several posters that I may have over-indulged the age of wrestlers who were red shirted. It has been noted that me saying these wrestlers would be 19 is equivilant to Chief and Will mentioning 7th graders in the 14U. The number is very small, to the point it is irrelevant. My apologies to those with summer birthdays.

Will
Wasn't going to go here but since you want to yell at me (using all caps) and call me a fence post....here goes....

1. This is a personal issue you especially this year. You are getting way too emotional and this is honestly the first time in 10 years I cannot follow your logic because your arguments for this change go against your stance on almost all other subjects on this forum.

2. Those are great goals for freestyle and Greco. Could you please share those with the state Freestyle and Greco Director so he can publish those for all of us coaches to work towards with our kids? He has been in the job for a couple years know and it is the first time I have heard these. I think you know who that is don't you? And while your at it maybe you can ask him to work with some folks to develop a some action plans that will layout some blueprints on how we can work together to achieve those goals.

Ok, done with my emotional outburst.....here are some challenges I see in your reasoning....

1. I think Joe Knecht is spot on. Please provide evidence as to how 5-15 kids wrestling in the 14U vice High School division is going help us achieve any of those goals you set out.

2. Your idea of using number D1 wrestlers on the decline is not a valid measure of effectiveness. Way too many more important factors to consider. If Kansas had a D1 wrestling program then that argument would hold more validity. Maybe we should spend more time figuring out how to make that happen rather than regulating opportunities for 14 year old kids. You know darn well that there a ton of other factors that enter into the decision of what college and what level to attend. We have 3-4 time state champs that choose to wrestle at lower levels in college because they want to be closer to home. We have others that go out of state to wrestle D1 and then return home because of homesickness, costs, injury, etc. heck we even have multiple time state champs that have never wrestled for a college in a sanctioned college match as part of a D1 college team. In reality, those are all very valid reasons that are more of an impact on why our D1 numbers are down than 14 year olds not competing in the HS division.

I do have to disagree with Beeson in that I do not think it is all because of the pussification of America. There are a ton of reasons. We will never be able to tell until KS gets a D1 wrestling program.

Beeson does raise a very valid point that the majority of our 14U are 8th and 9th graders. The bylaw change will water down the 14U terribly!

Another idea is that we may want to increase the number of folkstyle training opportunities and start to minimize the limited resources we spend on freestyle and Greco since they won't be offered in the Olympics after 2016. Now that can change but if it doesn't, freestyle and Greco could very easily become irrelevant very quickly in the eyes of these kids.

I would hope that even if we lose wrestling in the olympics we would atill push freestyle and greco. There is still a ton of opportunity on the international level for them to compete and the us will still need the wrestlers when the olympics figure it out and put it back in.

Mike pirl

Shawn,

I used caps to help easily distinguish my responses to your comments. Not yelling. It is pointless to change one's volume when conversing with a fence post.

I have no more emotion in this argument this year than any year since we started the HS division. I still contend that once you have moved into HS you should wrestle the HS division. Is that going to make a meaningful impact to the overall Kansas competitiveness, no. Are there are only a handful left? Yes and I believe it is because of discussions like this. YOU WILL NOT GET BETTER IF YOU ARE IN HS AND YOU WRESTLE 7th and 8th GRADERS.

There are lots of good ideas on here and I think we can use them to help evolve the sport. I have no idea why this is so debated. It is frustrating to believe that the concept of having an advantage from wrestling HS is not clearly apparent. Last year we had a HS state champ wrestle 14U and I believe he might have been an undefeated HS state champ. Are you kidding me?

We started the MS state tournament and it has been VERY successful. Maybe it is time to adapt to that classification. I like that idea and I like the idea of having Cadets and Juniors so that underclassmen can move up as Juniors or stay in the Cadet class if they want. I believe both of these ideas will add more wrestlers but only if we have a district and state tournament starting the weekend after HS state. (I know that one MS league goes a week longer but surely parental pressure can force a change there. That is another confounding situation. Why would a MS season go beyond the end of HS?? I digress.)

This is my last post. Shawn and Chad have twisted and turned every possible statement made that is contrary to their position. I am done being twisted. I will just keep pushing forward and doing the best I can while standing up for what I believe is right, HS wrestlers belong in the HS division, I dont care how old they are. Over and out.

"I am done being twisted." ~Will Cokeley


I don't know if I should laugh or cry.


Either way, there are lots of good ideas here and without these constructive debates no change will happen for sure.

I believe that Kansas needs less restriction for opportunity for our wrestlers. And without KSHAA jumping on board with.USAWKS in our willingness to truely promote wrestling & not limit it, our state suffers. We need to figure out how to change some things there and keep growing & promoting wrestling in a positive manner & we can get there.

I'd be happy to help.

Simple:

Stop club after sixth grade. Work to get middle school aligned around the state. Only option after MS and HS is Freestyle and Greco.

I like Hull's idea. It's a great idea and he's not all that bright so it must be a good one. And oh yea, I farted

The best way our wrestling will get better within the state is to have some of our best guys in each club and/or high school teams - is to have them involved in the programs and in the practice room with the up and comers. Those guys provide great leadership by example. It is very important to have some of our former college wrestlers and high school wrestlers involved with all our programs when their careers end. The youngsters really look up to these guys for advice and equally important they can roll around with them. Club directors, club coaches, and HS and Middle School Coaches can make this happen. All wrestlers DEVELOPE at different times. FACT

I agree 100%. Ark City's room is full of Alumni in the High School room. Coach Buckbee has some of the old State Champions come in and share video and experiences just before State. Nick McGrew who wrestled for Ark City High School and in College is the Asst. Coach at the Middle School. Jake Beeson goes in with me and helps coach the beginners class (3-5 year olds). Colby Watters came in over spring break from College and is helping with the little league program. There are several High School kids that are not wrestling Kids that come in and help with the little league. Jim Ramirez comes in and helps every now and then. It helps more than any of these kids or coaches will ever know. A strong Tradition is priceless.

Interesting topic. There are a lot of good points made from both sides. However, I would offer a perspective that is often overlooked on this forum, that of the average wrestle. It seems to me that most of the discussions on here are dominated by the extremist, (“...Little Johny has won 3 State title in a row, should he travel to Russia for a summer camp to ensure he will get a D1 scholarship?...”). And for good reason, those that are the most passionate about the sport will be the ones that take the time to post.

However, I have what I consider an average wrestler (maybe a little above average). He has qualified for State several time, even placed once. He has wrestled since he was 9 and likes wrestling, but doesn’t love it. He plays other sports such as baseball and football so he has never wrestled outside the timeframe of Thanksgiving to Easter. Therefore, he typically loses to the “year-round” guys that do Purler, Freestyle/Greco and the summer camps... as he should since he hasn’t put in the work.

My son is now 14 and a Freshman in HS. He was out with an injury until early January and wrestled JV for the remainder of the season. He did ok, winning more than he lost, but far from dominant. I don’t know how most HS JV programs are run, but I would consider ours more of an afterthought vs a “professional” organization as some have described it. The club he has been a member of the last several years is much more rigorous.

So my point is... of course he is wrestling 14U. I don’t think he would have even considered doing Kids if he had to wrestle the HS division. And yes, the reason he is wrestling 14U is because he thinks he has a chance. A chance to make it through subs, a chance to place at Districts. For him neither of these are a lock. He doesn’t look at wrestling an 8th graders as some easy way out. He has lost to several... Sammy being one of them. BTW, many of the kids in his sub bracket are also 9th graders.

For my son wrestling 14U is the best option for him. No, not so he can win a State championship, rather so he can develop an get some mat time. 3-4 matches at subs and 3-4 matches at districts vs 1-2 in HS division is a no-brainer.

Just my 2-cents


ps - I won't use my name here, but feel free to PM me if you would like to know

Ya know, I used to be an adventurer till I took an arrow to the knee.

Lol man that must have hurt!!!!!