While I think this is probably just a hold-over in the current manual based upon the prior rule, isn't the intent to prevent a team from video taping another team's wrestler for purposes of scouting at the time the contest is occurring? As noted above, the prohibition relates to reviewing during competition. It also refers to "your" wrestler. Since this is a KSHAA publication, I read "your" as meaning the school's, not the parent.

1st in answer to your question about educating parents--the answer is yes, we inform them and if we see them in violation, we stop them immediately too.
All that slide show says is that video recording is authorized, but then it goes on to state that it communication with wrestlers using electronic devices is permissible during injury and blood time and can never be shared with an official. It says nothing in reference to KSHSAA rule 1.M and it is very vague. I am not sure what you could share in that short of a period of time anyway.
Here is the KSHSAA Rule:
1.M Filming or Video Taping Matches

Any filming or video taping for the purpose of review during competition is prohibited. This includes multiple day tournaments. Video taping and camera filming are considered one and the same and can only occur when there is
competition between your wrestler and an opponent. Again, taping and filming cannot take place when you do not have a wrestler involved at that time. The only exception would be the state consolation and championship finals where
video taping and camera filming of any match is permissible.

Furthermore, whether you like the rule or not, it is still a rule. I posted on this a couple of years ago and you knew the rule then too and did not wish to follow it. This is what Mr. Cokeley told me in December of 2010 on this forum: "The rule is basically unknown to most and unenforceable. How many cameras are in the gym during the finals? How many cell phones with video capability? This rule is being violated EVERY weekend. I have said it before and I will say it again, I will post all matches I have on tape and I hope that everyone reviews them because it will raise the level of ability across the board. Coaches that don't want to abolish this rule must be too lazy to use tape to analyze matches."

My response then included the following: "What is lost here is that you can review tape, there is just procedure as to when you are reviewing the tape of your wrestlers' matches. I still stand by the fact that we cannot teach our kids to disregard rules because we don't like them."

Suffice it to say that until Mr. Lentz tells us this is not the case, it is a rule. If you want to disregard the rules, then you have free will to do what you feel is best. We are required to take the rules test and that includes the NFHS rules and the KSHSAA wrestling manual. And, I read them both in their entirety. Lazy is not in my vocabulary and posting emphatically does not make you right.

The test is the NFHSAA test not the KSHSAA test. When Mark says that we are adopting the NFHSAA rule and I ask "Does that mean we can video any match we want to?" and he says we are adopting the NFHSAA rule what am I to conclude from that? The rules meeting and the handbook are in direct conflict with each other.

I guarantee you that you have not covered this rule with all of your parents prior to the start of the season.

Acting high and mighty doesn't make you right either Tate.

Very profound! How do you argue with that logic Coach Thompson?

"Suffice it to say that until Mr. Lentz tells us this is not the case, it is a rule."

#1. Tate, I know this is not what you mean, but the narrator of the webinar IS Mr. Lentz.

#2. A valid point made about the "authorized" video streaming that is now going on. We had two different organizations video streaming our tournament on Saturday. Since they were not coaches, were they in violation of the rule and should not have ben allowed to ply their trade? Or, do the rules apply only to coaches, and if so, is it therefore it legal for anyone else to video?

I made the statement several years ago, and will stand by it, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate the use of video. . . every cheap cell phone has video capability as do $50 android tablets. I think relaxing of the rule is simply acknowledging that technology is way ahead of our ability to enforce a rule that was put in place at a time video equipment was so expensive it was truly a competitive advantage to have it; that is certainly no longer the case.

And, I really can't believe that I am arguing in favor of Will's point-of-view.

13. A member school may not film any other school’s activity contest if they do not have participants in that activity without
written permission from the involved school principals in advance of the contest. Page 7 of the Wrestling Manual


After a complete and thorough review of the handbook I agree with Official Ford. There is NO MENTION of the afore mentioned "video rule" applying to non competitors or non school affiliates/employees. It does NOT mention spectator filming ANYWHERE in the manual. In fact, he rule above addresses ONLY schools. There are some very specific examples given for many other situations and I might add MANY of those examples are being violated and/or not complied to at every tournament. If it is supposed to apply to spectators then the rule should explicitly say so. Lets just quit the game playing and selective enforcement! Adopt the NFHSAA rule as stated and lets move on. Are you in this for the spirit of improvement or should we continue operating in the dark ages?

1. I was not there for your conversation with Mark Lentz.
2. We take a rules test that includes items from the NFHS and the KSHSAA Wrestling Manual.
3. I cannot cover everything with all of my parents at the start of the season if they are not at our initial meeting. If I ever miss covering this, I take care of it during our 1st competition or any time I see a possible violation. This has nothing to do with whether the rule stated is being followed.
4. I am not acting high and mighty, but my interpretation of the slides and the manual obviously differ from you in this case. I will contact Mark Lentz tomorrow and get clarification.
If there has been a change, I will post it on the forum or ask Mark if he will send something out to all ADs and coaches.

This is where it is necessary to read the entire rule, which I am not sure is happening. The meaning of this rule is that you cannot tape and review your matches the same day they occur. I tell my wrestlers this all of the time when they want to review film of matches on the same day. I am not sure why this confuses you. It doesn't say you can't watch it. It says you cannot watch it on the same day you film it.

See Below
1.M Filming or Video Taping Matches

Any filming or video taping for the purpose of review during competition is prohibited. This includes multiple day tournaments. Video taping and camera filming are considered one and the same and can only occur when there is
competition between your wrestler and an opponent. Again, taping and filming cannot take place when you do not have a wrestler involved at that time. The only exception would be the state consolation and championship finals where
video taping and camera filming of any match is permissible.

I know who the narrator of the webinar is Mr. Mann. He says his name and it is written on the presentation and it is right by his picture. Thank you for letting me know, though.

3. You don't cover the video taping rule with your parents then it must only be important to you when it pertains to me? The Wrestling Manual is NOT publicly distributed and is ONLY available to member schools and officials. The video rule does NOT clearly state that it pertains to spectators. This absence is obvious evidence that the rule SHOULD not apply to spectators.

1. Multiple people have substantiated that the conversation took place at the rules meeting. Are you stating that you cannot rely on my report that this conversation took place?

2. 2013-14 NFHS Wrestling Exam – Part I
All Head Coaches (HS/MS) and KSHSAA Registered Officials are required to take an open-book exam.
INSTRUCTIONS: Please study & answer the following 100 questions. You will be responsible to provide answers for a random sampling of 50 questions. The test will
be administered on-line. Questions are true/false or multiple choice (please select only one answer for multiple choice questions). Please retain the questions for
further study.

It is the NFHS exam. That is why some questions are dropped and not counted because of modifications. Are you taking a different test??


4. You stated this "Lazy is not in my vocabulary and posting emphatically does not make you right." I never called you lazy and I am just posting the facts and my interpretation. Where do I try to leverage emphatically to make my interpretation right?

What is your axe to grind with me?

Tate,
The new rule in the power point presentation provides that you CAN review the video during the match!! On the same day!! It is directly conflicting with the handbook statement you keep quoting! Are you missing this??

Here is the email that I received from Mr. Lentz earlier today when I queried him regarding the KSHSAA Manual vs.the Rules meeting:

"The video rule was changed by the NFHS. . .The (KSHSAA) manual is incorrect and was printed prior the clarification/interpretation from the NFHS. I tried to make this clear in the rules meeting, but apparently that is not the case. I will try and send something out to all schools. . . "

I have no axe to grind. I never said I didn't cover that with parents, either. I said I can only cover that with parents who are at our initial meeting, if not, I tell them or have the athletes tell their parents as we go through the season. The rule is not ignored. I do not clearly see what you are seeing in the presentation.

I emailed Mr. Lentz tonight and will wait for a response tomorrow. If this is the case, I said I would post it here. I have had to remind parents and athletes of this rule for a long time. If it is changed, that is not really clear in the slides as Coach Church mentioned on the same topic in another thread. All that the slide says is that video recording is authorized as he is talking about electronic devices at matside. We have not been told any new information--it is not clear in the slides.

So, as Eric says on the other page that it is crystal clear and neither Coach Church nor myself see it as crystal clear, a clarification is needed from Mark Lentz on the matter. This is a discussion board and my opinion is as valid as anyone else. I don't have time to contact Mr. Lentz over matters like this normally, especially when the rule was still in place in the manual that we are required to read on a yearly basis. Eric Johnson(on the other thread) also mentions that every mom dad and spectator has always been able to record whatever they want which has also never been my interpretation as that would make it easy for schools to just have parents record for them if they wanted to scout other schools, which is not the intent of the rule at all.

Mr. Mann of Norton just posted a quoted email from Mark Lentz that says he will send something out to schools, which means that has not happened yet and I know I am not the only coach that was under the impression that the rule that was in effect is in effect.

People who read the Manual, know the rules and try to uphold the letter and the spirit of the rules are to be commended; not criticized.

It is unfortunate that the Manual is inaccurate and a better effort could/should be made to get the word out that it is inaccurate.

The email I received from Mr. Lentz was received late in the afternoon. I/We do not know what the CoC at the KSHSAA is in regards to sending out notices; can Mr. Lentz do this without approval or does he have get it approved before sending it out? How long does it take to get it posted on the website? Maybe the guy who does that had gone home for the day. We do not know. Just because we want to see it NOW, does not mean we will see it NOW.

That the rule has been changed and the rule in the Manual is wrong has been established.