As I prepare for seeding meetings I tend to catch myself going to teams that use track wrestling and comparing the records they turn in to the records on track wrestling. Then I noticed something that might be hard to catch if you did not go through and click on each teams competition on their schedule.

Some schools are counting bye's as wins on their athletes records. When I commit or approve stats from competition, I always delete matches with bye's and when the box shows up that says count bye's I always click no. I could be wrong and please, someone, correct me if I am. But bye's do not (and should not) count as wins on season record correct?

I am under the impression you count forfeits from dual's and forfeits or defaults in tournaments as wins, but taking the first round bye, or the back door bye's and counting them is wrong.

In the past, I have been against forcing anything on anyone in this country. However, I am buying in more and more that KSHSAA should adopt Track Wrestling as the universal program for stats and tournament programs.

Thoughts, input, etc. etc.

I am not here to call anyone out, but instead try to get us all as close to the same page as possible.

-Churchie

I agree 100%

Agreed. It would be much easier if all teams had track and used track at their duals/tournaments.

However, I'm still stuck on not forcing someone to purchase a commercial product. Although, I do feel that if those that do not track would give it a try they wouldn't want to go with anything else...

Someone on one of these threads here at some point suggested that Track give every school district a free trial. I think this would be huge.

Coach,

Definitely agree. Byes are definitely not wins while forfeits from dual meets are. I agree on adopting trackwrestling as a state - especially if we are going to do seeding meetings where common opponents are used as a criteria.

Coach Haselwood: You and I are on the very same page here!! I also believe that KSHSAA has deep enough pockets to purchase these programs for schools to use and not forcing schools to buy it themselves. We are using it for the State Series, why not provide the product for the schools to use as well!

This could also lead to seeding the State tournament since the "dirty work" of looking up criteria would already be done...

We use it, we love it...and we don't count byes as wins

It is time to address the difference between OPEN and a BYE. With the popularity of Scramble format tournaments some directors, properly IMO, enter a team's absence of a competitor as an OPEN not as a BYE. Our own REGIONAL tournaments should be handled this way. Teams and wrestlers should not be penalized due to the inability of a school, team, or coach to fill his roster. Team points are NOT awarded for a BYE but they are for an open. OPENS should count as wins just as they do in a dual.

BYES should only be used when you have too few teams to fill a bracket for example when a 32 team bracket but only 28 schools entered.

Does track just give a overall record? Varsity/JV or does it seperate the two. I have heard of coaches going into a seeding meeting and using JV records for Varsity competition.

If you don't go out and get your hand raised it is not a win in the record books. If we are saying you have to have a winning record to be seeded, and you are 15-15 but 7 wins via BYE or OPEN that is not right. It's how many guys you were paired up with that you either got your hand raised (Win) or did not (Loss).

My records are separate. It's all based on how you label the wrestlers I believe. If he is labeled Varsity, then it counts his varsity win/loss.

The principle is the same for a scramble tournament and a bracketed tournament, in my opinion. If it's a 16 man bracket tournament with 16 teams - and a kid has a bye it's because a team couldn't fill a weight(obviously). That has never been labeled a win in the history of wrestling.

The same goes with scramble tournaments. If it's a bye, it's a bye.

I really don't like to post on here with my opinions and try to only use the site for the promotion of our program. However - if there are coaches out there that think byes are wins for a varsity record, then that needs to be addressed by someone in KSHSAA.

Agreed!

Lars,

What is the difference between getting your hand raised in a dual team tournament when a team has a void vs a scramble? They are EXACTLY the same. "In the history of wrestling..." there have been many, many changes. Scrambles and dual tournaments are fairly new to the scene. Everything evolves. Saying "In the history of wrestling..." is the equivalent of saying "because we have always done it that way" the most ignorant sentence in the English language. Why should a wrestler or team be penalized because another team couldn't fill their line up? If you don't count the win in a scramble then you shouldn't count it in a dual either.

If you didn't wrestle its not a win! Period!

Coaches should not be able to count byes or opens from a dual or tournament towards an individuals record when discussing seeding criteria. However, in a dual format if a team can not fill a weight then the kid that is in that weight class should get the team points (which is obvious), but it should not be allowed to count towards his overall record. However, in a tournament I believe you should be able to get advancement points for your team if you draw a bye.

Completely agree! No wrestle, no win, no doubt!

@Will - I think you are mixing up the issue. Surely you don't believe you would get a 'win' for a bye or an open for that matter. I don't see anyone getting penalized in this case but I do see someone getting something (a win) for nothing (not wrestling).

If you are thinking of the tournament team point issue, that takes care of itself IF the standard were to award the bye points if they win their next one or they don't have another match vs them winning their next match. Doing this would give reward/incentive to a team that fills their roster.

Doing this way removes the need to treat byes and opens differently as really they are the same. Neither actually create a match and should be considered that way.

This would not really fix the issue Will is talking about because you can't score bonus when you get a bye unless they make it an open and give bonus!

I agree with needing to win on the mat but I KNOW that coaches count FF in a dual on their records. Yes, I am going after the team point issue but they are connected in the argument. I think we need to establish both.

No wrestle, no win.

No wrestler equals OPEN or FF in any format.

A BYE is only used to FILL IN when there are not enough teams.

It is a simple standard. Put it in the NFHSA rule book. Done Deal.

I would agree with Will's proposal on this.

Will- I'm not saying I'm not open for change. I thought what was being discussed was coaches counting byes as wins right now, this season, regardless of the format. Right now all coaches should be doing the same thing and what coaches are supposed to do is not count byes for wins , only dual forfeit wins. If someone proposes the rule you were talking about and it gets changed, I'm all good with it. I just want to make sure all coaches are doing the same thing this year for seeding and such. Otherwise I need to tack 20 more wins on all of my kids' career records. Dodge will have a lot of kids join the 100 win club in a hurry.

A wrestler makes it to the Semi-Finals. Does not make weight, the next day there is a FF to get in for 3rd and 4th, there is also a FF for the 5th and 6th place match. Do you count that as wins for the wrestlers involved in those two place matches?