Having subs anymore is dumb. Really dumb

Maybe. It's a mute point next year because of the schedule the body approved. My question is how many kids in a qualifying tourney are too many (900, 1000, 1200). How many matches in a single day are appropriate when trying to determine top 4...or half day for split tournaments? Have we limeted our opportunities for growth?

I was happy with the size and pace of D3E. I for one am sorry to see subs go away. I will change with the times. We will adapt and overcom unintended consequences.

The change is interesting for sure. It has been a while since my son wrestled in the Kids Series, but now I am back following my grandson. In a larger bracket it may all come down to seeding as the main factor of whether or not a wrestler advances (I hope the coaches/Districts get it right during the seeding meeting...insert smiley face here). Sub-Districts gave each wrestler one opportunity to earn your seed before moving on to Districts. Mr. Stanley, I am in the minority with you...I am sorry to see Subs eliminated.

Most know my position on this topic, but it bears repeating in the hopes that maybe others will read, think differently and create a collective dialogue about what is best for ALL Kansas Kids, not just the top 30%.

Wrestling is a Journey for an athlete (boy or girl). It involves a PROCESS for most that are not naturals. (I define a natural as a beginner who is very strong, very quick, very aggressive or has tremendous hips/balance, or a combination of these.)

The Journey begins like many others in that the Climb up the Mountain is fairly easy to start. You use Novice Tournaments and Novice practices to begin to hone your schools for the Journey ahead!

As the hill becomes steeper, each wrestler has to begin an ascent that will be different for each one. No 2 wrestlers will take the same path, learn the skills in the same sequence, invest the same amount of time or money, or both.

Along the way they have to begin to identify key spots to climb to that then allow them to regroup, refocus and update the Journey log. These goals might include placing in an open tournament; making it to the 3rd period with a wrestler has pinned you quickly every match before; getting a takedown in a group you never got a takedown in before; winning a bracket; going to a national tournament; making a dual team, qualifying for DISTRICTS, qualifying for State, placing at State, etc.

Without these views in front the wrestler the mountain seems un-scalable! Subdistricts for many average wrestler was the tournament where they began their ascent up the State part of the mountain. They were heartbroken when they didn't qualify. They adjusted the plans and re-attacked the next season. They celebrate (we as coaches, fans and parents celebrated with them) the milestone of being a District Qualifier! Then we start the next part of the Journey with the accomplishment of being a D.Q. in our bag, we approach the next goal.

For many good and great HS wrestlers, the D.Q. label was what kept them in th sport until their physical maturity kicked in and they started re-attacking the mountain.

I believe the Loss of Subdistricts will be a milestone that we look on in a few years and ask why have Kansas USA memberships in 10s, 12s and 14s diminished? I was told that ALL kids will be District Qualifiers. I'm sorry, that person was wrong! They all paid to be in the District Invitational for All-Comers to try to only achieve one goal.

Of my 3 sons, one was a "natural." The other 2 were the 50% that had to work harder on the Journey, and it STARTED at Subdistricts! They all 3 had strong high school careers with many accolades earned along the way.

Colby Johnson was one of our 50% through the age of 11 when being a District Qualifier was the driving goal because he was average. As he continued to climb he was a 4-time State Placer, 2-time undefeated State Champion, a Kansas Career Win leader, and now he is climbing the next summit as a college wrestler at Baker U. He is still on the Journey to the next point. He was a National Qualifier and won a match. I know Colby J well, and I know he has stopped looked around and looked up to his next spot to climb to!

Yesterday, another wrestler from Emporia with a similar story won a NCAA Division II National Championship for Newman U. His High School coaches know his story well. I know his climb from MS to HS and now beyond. He was the average kid that kept climbing towards his goals. Today, he has that and in 4 years he has his Bachelor's Degree and in in 2 months his Master's Degree IN 4 YEARS TOTAL as his journey also shaped the student, man and citizen he has become!!

I don't believe in change for change's sake. I will adapt with the rules and keep my focus on helping ALL kids on this Journey!

Someone commented yesterday at Subs, maybe we can have Subdistricts the Sunday after HS State? Maybe we can have Subs on a Saturday and Districts on a Sunday the same weekend?

Maybe other like-minded people will ask: What is BEST for the 30% Advanced, 50% Average and 20% Novice kids that I've referenced?

Ask yourself - What if we continued this belief? As opposed to - Why this won't work?

Continuing the Journey -
Doug Vander Linden
Burlington Wrestling

Mr. Vander Linden, you make some very good points. Just a few thoughts based on your comments...with participation numbers dropping maybe it is time to consider moving Kids High School State to another venue and allowing each district to qualify more wrestlers per weight making up 32-wrestler brackets (whenever possible). If eight from each district is too much, maybe start with six. This would provide more wrestlers with an opportunity to experience the journey and it might keep the wrestling flame ignited.

Just like yesterday, when the well-known district leader suggested other ideas to still have Subs, I believe that every idea should be considered.

Others have suggested 8 districts with 3 (or 4) qualifiers each. Another person suggested creating a Pool Format of 8 pools with 3 wrestlers each (1st, 2nd, 3rd). 3 matches per pool equals 24 matches on Saturday. Top wrestler from each pool in an 8-man bracket on Sunday for the hardware.

The ExpoCentre has the bid for the next few years, but still there are things that could be done there if people with a common vision and focus are working together.

According to Mark Stanley (State Director) the NEW tournament dates are:
**March 16-17 2019**
March 14-15 2020
March 13-14 2021
March 12-13 2022
March 11-12 2023

**High School State is February 22&23 in 2019.

So in theory, March 1/2 weekend could be Subdistricts...for those that want it.


March 8/9 weekend will be Districts
March 16/17 will be USA State

Doug...next year would be the only year in this bid cycle with two weekends between HS State and Kids State.

HS State Tourney Dates
Feb 22-23, 2019
Feb 28-29, 2020
Feb 26-27, 2021
Feb 25-26, 2022
Feb 24-25, 2023

Kids State is still tied to the last full weekend in March...only now it is two weekends before the last full weekend in March. HS State is tied to the first official practice day for HS. It is my understanding, the "start of practice" day gets shifted earlier by one day each year over a seven year cycle and then forward one week before starting the cycle over. The 2018/19 season is the end of a seven year cycle.

Really it looks like KSHSAA just move High school state up a week next year. But if High school was a week later it would be March 1-2.

All -

Thanks for the update. I do understand. Next year is the LAST year in the 7 year cycle and the dates are right, per the KSHSAA calendar link below, then season moves back!
http://www.kshsaa.org/Publications/ProjCalendar.pdf

All I am saying is that if people believe there should be Subs then next year there is a weekend it could happen. After that, it may take more creativity.

Working for the 30/50/20,
Doug Vander Linden
Burlington Wrestling

Doug I don't disagree with your 30/50/20 theory, however it's my opinion that you can apply the 30/50/20 to any level of the sport and to life in general. Should we have subs before regionals in HS? Should we suggest the NCAA adopt a three tournament approach. Should we get an extra 2 shots at each promotion or job interview.

In my opinion subs "waters it down", what's wrong with teaching our youth you have to work hard to get want you want?

I don't disagree with your suggestion of setting goals and "climbing the mountain" either. Removing subs just puts a little more distance to cover between goals.

Life's not fair and there is no benefit in trying to make it fair. Teach them to work hard for what they want and they will do better in sports and life!

Zach Campbell

KSHSAA should look into shortening the HS schedule. Most HS state tournaments are the weekend prior to Kansas.

Maybe they should also look into just three classifications since there are less than 15,000 TOTAL STUDENTS in 321A under the new breakout for classifying Kansas high schools.

Maybe they could look into eliminating the ridiculous dead week in the middle of the season and let the kids wrestle if they want to like most of the other states in the country.

Well then they could eliminate the STUPID 500 mile border rule too so that Kansas wrestlers could go to the Cheesehead, Iron Man, Beast of the East, Reno TOC, etc. I mean if a band can go to the UK on a trip which can't a wrestling team travel more than 500 miles from the border??? Better yet, why can a school go 900 miles to the west but only 500 to the east. Who makes this crap up???

Year East West Total
2011 406 376 782
2012 424 394 818
2013 454 375 829
2014 400 364 764
2015 370 344 714
2016 350 335 685
2017 301 346 647
2018 343 329 672

Above are the numbers for each sub since 2011. Numbers keep dropping each year. These numbers also exclude the HS division that used to be part of Subs up to 2016 I believe.
Districts holds 680 (340 from each) spots from the sub district competition. When we only have that many between BOTH competing in one weekend, dropping the sub district week is the right choice. Plus you have some weight classes that have one or none in them. So basically, for most, it is just another medal for the week and travel for some also.
Now if we take the 6&U and apply them to the Kids State Series. We have 6&U all year long with the tournaments, why not add them into the state series run also.