We can all agree on one thing numbers are down

Whitewolf - We can all agree on one thing numbers are down - FIGURE IT OUT WHAT IS CAUSING THE NUMBERS TO DROP and fix that first. Quit adding older HS kids and 6 year old kids to artificially inflate overall numbers. We are putting expectations on 6 year olds to win a Damn BELT are you kidding me? OK that's right they quit by the time they are 11 -13 years old. Oh could that be one of the reasons HS numbers are dropping - damn straight it is. Put more emphasis on growing our 5th-8th grade group and less emphasis on growing the K-4th grade. It is amazing when I hear a parent say my kid had 100 -120 matches - a 6, 8, 10 year old. Good lord are you nuts? There is only a very very small fraction of any population of kids that will be still doing it in HS - putting on that many miles on their motors - the ones that do make it great - the ones that we let parents run out of the sport shame on you and I.


People are worried about kids missing weight, moving up or down a weight class, fancy singlets, travel, travel, travel, money money money - how about lets teach them fundamental skills, morals, sportsmanship, team work,



small data sample - plus I think the boundaries have changed
whitewolf490 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 29
Loc: Junction City
Year East West Total
2011 406 376 782
2012 424 394 818
2013 454 375 829
2014 400 364 764
2015 370 344 714
2016 350 335 685
2017 301 346 647
2018 343 329 672


Whitewolf - We can all agree on one thing numbers are down - FIGURE IT OUT WHAT IS CAUSING THE NUMBERS TO DROP and fix that first. Quit adding older HS kids and 6 year old kids to artificially inflate overall numbers. We are putting expectations on 6 year olds to win a Damn BELT are you kidding me? OK that's right they quit by the time they are 11 -13 years old. Oh could that be one of the reasons HS numbers are dropping - damn straight it is. Put more emphasis on growing our 5th-8th grade group and less emphasis on growing the K-4th grade. It is amazing when I hear a parent say my kid had 100 -120 matches - a 6, 8, 10 year old. Good lord are you nuts? There is only a very very small fraction of any population of kids that will be still doing it in HS - putting on that many miles on their motors - the ones that do make it great - the ones that we let parents run out of the sport shame on you and I.


People are worried about kids missing weight, moving up or down a weight class, fancy singlets, travel, travel, travel, money money money - how about lets teach them fundamental skills, morals, sportsmanship, team work,


whitewolf490 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 29
Loc: Junction City
Year East West Total
2011 406 376 782
2012 424 394 818
2013 454 375 829
2014 400 364 764
2015 370 344 714
2016 350 335 685
2017 301 346 647
2018 343 329 672


I just pulled a few national numbers so there is an APPLE to APPLE
view or comparison.

Even with the increase in girls participants and increase in teams offering wrestling for girls and boys - overall HS wrestling participation is down 20,000 during the period between 2009 and 2017
THAT IS A PROBLEM and it needs to be addressed by national and state leaders in the kids programs, middle school programs and the HS levels and the Colleges and international styles need too be involved as well. The college guys recently have proven folkstyle is not hindering their international performances and success.

2016/17
HS Boys
Teams 10,629
Participants 244,804
HS Girls
Teams 2,091
Participants - 14,587

2009/10
HS Boys -
Team 10,363
Participants - 272,890
HS Girls
Teams - 1009
Participants - 6134

We can all agree on one thing numbers are down and continuing to drop

Change was promised and it is happening as speak - numbers are dropping at a record pace and will continue to drop with the current programs and philosophy's being implemented. It will be remembered as the TIME FOR CHANGE. Let's not confuse passion with common sense.

We can all agree on one thing numbers are down and continuing to drop

Change was promised and it is happening as speak - numbers are dropping at a record pace and will continue to drop with the current programs and philosophy's being implemented. It will be remembered as the TIME FOR CHANGE. Let's not confuse passion with common sense.

Smokey, I never said anything on adding the 6&U into the mic to inflate the numbers. My thought was to do away with the 6&U state by itself and add to the State Series.
Now the state board has tried other things such as moving boundaries of the districts around to try and help this or even at least even the numbers for each district. Some were blaming the length of the season as to be burning out the kids, when at the same time some of them are also soap boxing to begin the GR/FS earlier with the reduction of the Folkstyle season. That's like saying, I don't want to eat dinner, but I am going to eat the potato chips.
Could it be the way society is right now where everyone believes that the kids deserve a participation medal, whether they win 1 match or not? Could it be leadership with in the clubs, the cost of wrestling over all, not having the right practice facilities, equipment, time? I believe no one knows for exactly why and how to fix it. I have never seen anyone post any type of participation numbers on this subject so I felt obliged to do the research and post them up as to why we are dropping sub-districts. Everyone can say the numbers are dropping but some of us like to see the numbers. That's all. This was not intended to rile anyone up.
Another thing as you brought up, we need to concentrate on KANSAS first before looking or trying to compare the national numbers in with us. We can't believe we are going to fix the national numbers without fixing our piece of the pie 1st. We need to focus on the Kids Wrestling. This is the feeder to Middle and High School programs. We need to focus on us first before looking at national numbers. We cant fix other states.

Participation numbers use to be posted when they were going up. I would like to see one of the wrestling organizations use the data they have and see what 6 or 8 year olds that started wrestling - historic data - see example below. Wrestling and other youth sports need an objective look at some of the problems. Youth sports have gone to the model - exploit the younger age groups at the benefit of the older groups. But the pool of younger
athletes and future fans continues shrinking at the expense of the overall program.

example there were 2,000 6 year old Kansas card members (novice) in 2010 How many of those continued to wrestle through their junior or senior year of HS or were still doing it in 8th or 9th grade. Then take the same age group in 20111
and do the same thing. Trackwrestling has been around long enough now - to be able to look at data historically and begin to draw some comparisons and analysis. Using tracks data to do rankings on 6 year olds to help promote a for profit company - Is that helping or actually hurting the sport??????????

I think it would be interesting to look at the number of students enrolled in school since 2011 in order to see if there is a correlation with the number of kids wrestling. Has enrollment decreased in D3, making fewer students even eligible to wrestle in certain districts? I don’t have the numbers, but it could have something to do (along with the factors Smokey highlighted) with decreasing numbers.

On a positive note. The numbers for our club has grown the last two years.

On a different note. It isn't necessarily about the things the wrestling community is doing. In my opinion more about our society. There is more decline in sports that are tough and physical. I have seen a general decline in football and wrestling...also in kids that want to run a 400m in track. Anything that is tough...kids are allowed to quit.

Here's my two cents...participation numbers are down because of the adults involved. I saw a number of young kids have their day ruined last weekend at the D4 tournament. It was not ruined because they failed to qualify for state, it was ruined by an adult who decided it was ok to to chew on a kid for loosing a match. When we have parents and coaches putting that kind of pressure and importance on winning matches in 8,10,&12 and Under divisions they ruin the experience for the kids. It is our jobs as coaches and parents is to help these kids learn how to wrestle and LOVE wrestling in the process.

I think the main reason number's keep falling is do to the time kids(High School Kids) have to give up to wrestle. Most of the kids who walk the hallways at our school who do not wrestle tell me this is why they don't wrestle. A lot of kids are not brought up in a wrestling house. These kids have no background that is normal or okay to give up a Saturday to wrestle. These kids are the ones who are on the basketball teams Varsity and JV. Who never get to play. They want to be apart of something but don't want to sacrifice a lot of their time. These are the kids most wrestling programs need. These are the kids our program needs but can't get due to the time kids have to put in.
Wrestling needs to change in how we compete. Fewer Saturday's and more Friday night tournaments. We wrestled a Friday night tournament this year. The kids loved it and so did the parents. This may be the best get your cake and eat it too the wrestling community can have.

Josh Parker

Competing with that other sport on Friday nights will be a tough sell........

Sad that we have come to a point where we "need" kids that don't want to sacrifice a lot of their time. We continue to lower the bar. I'm sorry, but a lot of coaches bust their ass and make a full commitment to their program, and I'm sure it is aggravating when the kids and parents make a half ass commitment to it.

This is the world today. If you can't or don't change then you can live with only the memories you have.

We are competing with basketball any ways for kids. Why not get those borderline kids?

If you are worried about fans coming to Friday night tournaments. The wrestling fans will be there no matter what. Most wrestling fans that come to see wrestling are family members and people who like to watch wrestling. Take family out of the stands and you have pretty empty gym.

Josh Parker

Year round sports and specialization is not helping this sport either. Our numbers in my wrestling club are up significantly since I took over 5 years ago, which is great... but I lose kids around MS (and even earlier) because they are going to "focus on baseball", etc. Private club teams pressure parents in to believing their kids will fall behind if they aren't on their club teams playing year round ball and spending ridiculous amounts of money to be on those teams. Baseball practices start in January now and move outdoor in March or sooner. Then they play games from March/April to July. Have a short time off and then fall ball starts. That runs till November and then hitting/pitching sessions start up. Baseball is just one example of the specialization I am talking about and I see it from other sports as well. Kids specializing at such young ages frustrates me. Both of my boys play 3 different sports each. I know it will be tough to keep up with the demands of all 3 sports as they approach HS but not impossible. If they decide they don't want to continue with all 3, that is up to them but I am not going to pull them out of all other sports at such a young age because of pressure from those private club teams to "play fall baseball" for example. I encourage all kids I know to get involved in as many activities as they can when they are young. It develops a much more well rounded athlete anyways.

Yep there are some parents who are nuts and they are the sole reason that their kids quit the sport. The other reason is the woosification of kids and society as a whole. Wrestling is a tough sport and many kids will just go choose to play video games or easier sports such as soccer, baseball, or basketball. These sports do require skill, but not near as tough, mentally or physically, as a combat sport such as wrestling.

I will never forget a Physical Education class in college in which the entire class did a pacer run competition. Many of the students dropped out early on and at the end it was a basketball player, who started on the team that won the national championship that year and myself, an average former out of shape High School wrestler. When things got tough he eventually quit, I was not going to quit no matter how hard it was going to get. Wrestlers learn this and it becomes second nature. These other sports simply do not make a person near as tough mentally or physically.

Wrestlers learn this kind of work ethic that can be applied to life. I think if we focus on these kinds of benefits with wrestling, then we can get parent by in and possible grow the sport in the future.

There has been much discussion and complaints about kids that are involved in year around wrestling. The kids that I have seen wrestle year around do this 1 night per week for around 2 hours each practice during the off season. They also still play other sports. I don't consider this to be specialization and feel it is good for a self-motivated kid that wants improves. Not sure why someone would think this is hurting the sport? Wrestling is a tough, complicated sport and it may take extra work for some to achieve success in wrestling.
Do Karate classes, gymnastics etc. only practice 3 to 4 months each year? I don't believe so, they go year around.

I agree with sugar80 100%. Was talking to other parents at a tournament just yesterday, a mom mentioned that they’d recently had their daughter switch gyms to give her a break so that she’d “only” have to practice gymnastics 12hrs/wk vs the 15-20 she was doing. We’re not talking Olympic level either, think she said her daughter was a level 6. 20 hours! Blew my mind, had no idea the time involved with gymnastics. One or two 2hr practices/wk in the off-season is NOTHING compared to the time these girls put in. Even during the season wrestlers don’t come close.
Unrealistic expectations from parents cause kids to quit this sport. I feel for some of the kids who start wrestling at 10,11 or later. Parents screaming at the mat from the bleachers, yelling at their kids later not realizing that the 10yr old kid who beat him w/5yrs experience spent the better part of his 1st year losing lots of matches too. He just had the benefit of spending that first awkward year or two wrestling other equally as awkward 5-6yr olds also new to the sport.

I agree 100%. My kids train at pwa year round one night a week for a couple of hours. And play fb and baseball too. The same would hold true for those kids that work on hitting 1 night a week in the off season etc. I don't consider that playing year round. I consider that good work ethic. The competing year round is more what I was referring to. Like playing 20 fall baseball games and then practicing 2 nights a wk all winter. Plus kids get so much more "practice" on their own in mainstream sports because that's what they play outside with neighbors in the back yards. They aren't working on sweep singles haha.

For the record, the number of wrestlers in Kansas with USAW memberships are up this year. Here are the totals for the past few years (figures are through August except for this season):

2017-18 9368 (as of today)
2016-17 9239
2015-16 9123
2014-15 9298

Based on prior years I expect to pick up another 50-60 wrestlers during the summer months.

Mike,

Thanks for the data.

Do we have the same data by age group? Statewide and nationally - they must - Rocky Mountain National group is able to use Track Data to rank 6 year olds. Insane - that is not promotion to grow the sport. That is for the crazy over the top parents to put more pressure on their kids and drag them to these tournaments for a Belt. I have NEVER NEVER in 30 plus years of coaching had 5 or 6 year old come up to me a say Coach how do I get to state or the national tournament - I want to be a 6 & U State Champ or National Champ - it was 100 percent parent driven. That is one of the main reason I got out working with kids - because it is getting out of hand and I see no one addressing the problem.

6, 8, 10, 12, 14, HS for the same periods?

It doesn't do any good if they are not continuing on after middle school. AAU, USAW, Middle School, HS and College Coaches need to continue to grow the POSITIVE coaching ranks at all levels. It only takes a few parents and coaches on the EXTREME END to run kids off even if it is not their own club kid. To change the mind set it is going to take officials, coaches, parents, state and national leaders to fix this issue - not only in wrestling but other activities.

Technology is great and has it usefulness, is it possible there some negative impacts?

smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 5884
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Mike,

Thanks for the data.

Do we have the same data by age group? Statewide and nationally - they must - Rocky Mountain National group is able to use Track Data to rank 6 year olds. Insane - that is not promotion to grow the sport. That is for the crazy over the top parents to put more pressure on their kids and drag them to these tournaments for a Belt. I have NEVER NEVER in 30 plus years of coaching had 5 or 6 year old come up to me a say Coach how do I get to state or the national tournament - I want to be a 6 & U State Champ or National Champ - it was 100 percent parent driven. That is one of the main reason I got out working with kids - because it is getting out of hand and I see no one addressing the problem.

6, 8, 10, 12, 14, HS for the same periods?

It doesn't do any good if they are not continuing on after middle school. AAU, USAW, Middle School, HS and College Coaches need to continue to grow the POSITIVE coaching ranks at all levels. It only takes a few parents and coaches on the EXTREME END to run kids off even if it is not their own club kid. To change the mind set it is going to take officials, coaches, parents, state and national leaders to fix this issue - not only in wrestling but other activities.

Technology is great and has it usefulness, is it possible there some negative impacts?

The statistics tend to show that national and state organized group activities - not just sports - for youth are ALL down. Youth civic and social organizations such as scouts and 4-H continue to suffer a decline in numbers along with athletics. It's tempting to blame driven parents and specialization, but they've always been around to some degree (even when numbers were higher) and aren't really the cause of a decline in numbers. In my opinion we're competing for numbers against Xbox, PS2, and Nintendo, and social media. Frankly, wrestling is hard, and most kids would rather play a video game of themselves wrestling than actually wrestle the match themselves, and it's basically only the people who are participating in this forum who are motivated enough to encourage their kids to get off the couch. I think this trend will likely continue with the advent of VR games and more engaging technology, and there's not much we can do about it. The better question is - how does the organization best support and promote the kids and parents who ARE interested in participating?