I have contacted 25 different State directors about their rules for Kids state.

So far:

Missouri
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Georgia
Illinois

All five of these states do NOT allow High School wrestlers in their Kids state brackets

Chief, out of curiosity, how many of these states have a Cadet division and a Junior division? I have a hard time believing these states, two of which are not impressive nationally, have an 8th grade division only.

I'm not sure if they have a 15U, 7th/8th grade or what. They do not allow High School wrestlers to participate in the Kids state tournament. To be clear, ours would NOT be an 8th grade only either. There are many 7th graders in the 14U brackets.

Two of these states are very impressive nationally.

Beeson,

To answer your question on changes to this.

This was sent to me as a by-law change and has to be voted on as is. If it is changed it can not go in to effect this year or it can be sent back to the drawing board.

Coaches Passes or not changes to the by-laws. They are voted on every year for the upcoming State Tournament.

This is a great topic and a great reason for everyone to come to te State Body meeting on 11/1 in Salina.

Ned

Ned,

Thanks for clarifying. I do have a couple of more questions. If this was sent in as a by-law change, did it have to be approved as it was sent in? Could it have been discussed by the board and sent in ammended by them? If this passes, how difficult would it be to ammend it for the following year?

My problem is I see the High School part as a positive and the 14U as a negative. If the 14U could be ammended next year I could possibly vote in favor for this. If it will be difficult to even discuss changing, I will vote no.

You will vote no because you think the 14U will be for 8th graders only? Have you seen how many 7th graders that are too old for 12U and wrestle 14U? I would say there are hardly any 8th graders that are too old for 14U that would be forced to wrestle in the HS division. Is that your position?

Let me start off by stating this rule change would affect my son. That said, I would have to agree with Cokeley, if Kansas wants to add a high school division to KIDS state, we should go with Junior and Cadet divisions. The development gap physically between freshman and seniors is to great, there will be very few freshmen that will even qualify for state if we go this route. I understand that a lot of people out there want to see the great match-ups that could happen, but not a lot of those great match-ups would involve freshman anyway. So add a 18U take away 16U but I feel we should leave 14U the way it is.


Something I have never understood is why we dont use the same age and weight classifications as USA wrestling?

Beeson is completey correct as far as I am concerned. Also, with no disrespect meant Chief (you do alot for wrestling in Kansas from what I see), what is your point on other states not allowing High Schoolers at their kids state?? I know MO doesn't. I have no desire to copy them. They do not even allow HS kids to compete at all in their federation tournaments. I disagree. I love having the HS kids come to kids practices after their season is over. They really improve the intensitity in the practice room. It really improves the work ethic of the other kids. I think your point is few others allow HS kids to wrestle JH kids. I think that is a valid point, I just do not see a reason to copy it. I really believe a quality kids club can get an 8th grader in better position to compete then an average High School program can due to the restrictions placed on them by Will's good friends.

Another problem I see is the lighter HS kids. I assume the weights will be the same as High School. Kids state has always offerred the 85, 90, and 95 lbs HS Freshmen an opportunity to compete for a state title where they are not out weighted by 15 or 20 lbs. We will have one at our High School that right now weighs 85lbs with his clothes on. At kids state he has a real chance to compete without just being overpowered.

I really think Will is on to something with the Cadet/Juniors comment. What if we changed our age groups to match USA. Makes a whole lot of sense, will get you your Middle School championship.

Finally, it appears the change has been made for this year and we will all live with it. In the long run (probably with a few changes) it will be very positive for Kansas wrestling. I can see a time in the future where a Kids championship from the High School division is worth more than one of the 4 HS state championships.

Chief,
I can think of a few freshman that will be forced to wrestle high school division that wont be 15 until next summer, are you really going to tell them that they have to wrestle an 18 or 19 year old at KIDS state?

John,

No offense taken with your position. The discussion is all good. My point with the comparison of top wrestling states is not to solely follow them lock step, but to at least consider why they have come to their conclusion. Is it better for our state? Does it help or hurt our High School state champions that they follow up their season by beating 7th and 8th graders for a month? As to your point about comparing a kids club program to a High School one, there is no way that the kids club can match the intensity of the high schools wrestling 6 days a week with 15-18 year olds. There is some validity to your lighter weight class problem. As many 103 matches that are forfeited though, makes me think those kids are in the extreme minority. I also agree with the cadet/junior idea.

Remember these changes are just up for approval. They live or die with the state body vote.

Ed,

They are freshmen. They are no longer KIDS wrestlers. They wrestle in the HS division just like they will have all year. Right?

Here is my problem, I don't think there are that many 7th graders in the 14 and under division. If so I think that it is because they have July or August birthdays and were held back in school. I basically see the 7th graders being the Top Dogs in 12U and then the very next year being the Top Dogs in 14U. Since half of the 14U kids that have been in their age division can not wrestle now because they are Froshmen. This really waters down this division. The "8th Grade" Division bothers me alot.

In every sport, except wrestling, there is a Froshman Team, a JV, and a Varsity. There is a reason for that. Very few Froshman can compete mentally or physically with Juniors and Seniors. Wrestling is a special sport where a minority of Froshman can do very well, but the majority can not. This is why I think there should be an option. Those who can compete, do it. Those who can not, stay in 14U.

Another problem I have that I would like to be able to change: Weight Classes. If we are doing this to have a Grand State, make the weights the same as the High School. 103 would be, 103 plus 2 pounds for certification, then add 5 pounds = 110. Do this with all the weights. I would think that everyone would be able to wrestle the weight they did in High School if the weights were done in this manner. We could keep the 100 pound weight class and possibly a weight around 245.

These are some of the things that would need to be discussed for possible change next year for me to vote yes. I truly want what will improve our sport, I don't think making 14 year olds wrestle 18 year olds will do this. I don't think watering down a division will do this. And I do not think having too many weights in the High School division will do this either.

I have contacted 25 different State directors about their rules for Kids state.

So far:

Missouri
Nebraska
Wisconsin
Georgia
Illinois
Oklahoma
Iowa

All seven of these states do NOT allow High School wrestlers in their Kids state brackets

Oklahoma has a 15 year division, I would assume this means they allow High School kids to wrestle at their state tourney. This could also be that they have Jr Highs in Ok. 8th, 9th, and 10th are together and 11th and 12th together. Possibly 11th and 12th are considered High School and this is what they mean by High Schoolers are not allowed.

1. There are many more 7th graders that are 14U than you think. The freshman have competed all year long in their respective rooms and many freshmen contribute greatly to their teams.

2. The weight class change to the HS division is a great point!

3. Are we MAKING a 14 year old freshman wrestle 18 year olds? They are freshman in High School. That's what high school freshmen do all year long.

Per Archie Randall, High School wrestlers do not wrestle 8th graders. Their state tournament is the same time as High School, so they couldn't even if they wanted to.

Sorry Chief, I made a change while you were responding. I know when I was wrestling at UCO, 9th graders were not considered High Schoolers. We will just have to agree to disagree on 9th graders being on the same playing field as Juniors and Seniors.

I too would support this change if 14u remained the same, and the kids are given the choice to compete in the h.s. division.

I don't support the jr./ cadet idea. When we start our kids in school, we don't use a Jan 1 cut off, it's Aug/September. I think we should stay consistant with how we enroll our kids....imo.

No problem. I appreciate the discussion. This is a great subject. You really do have to at least consider why virtually every other state disagrees with you. (At least it's 7-0 so far). They didn't just flip a coin. They decided it was better for their state's development.

I do however, agree with the point about allowing an 8th grader the choice of wrestling up in the HS division. Just not HS wrestlers moving back down to Kids.

Chief,
Yes, they wrestle other 14 and 15 year olds on JV, there are very few Reece Conklins. Most freshmen on varsity get tore up all year long and now the powers that be would take away their prize for working hard all year and getting better. My son was a 14U 8th grader last year at 165 and worked hard to finish 2nd, beating freshmen along the way, taking that away waters it down so much as to be almost meaningless. We went to tourny after tourny last year with no more than 2 or 3 kids for him to wrestle, even at salina he had only 2 guys in his bracket that he pinned in the 1st period.