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#173276 - 10/13/10 06:43 AM Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas



These posts where from 2005

As a parent and a coach. I say no to the 6 and under state tournament. A two month season and 20 matches is plenty for that age division. I personally would like to see these kids wrestle in high school and not raise their expectations at such an early age. I see enough tears from this age group daily at practice, regular tournaments, and their attention span is very short to begin with. That is just my two cents worth. I was against it 12 years ago and I am still against a 6 and under state tournament this year. This topic gets voted on every other year by the club representatives at the state meeting. I guess you know my vote. It is a BIG NO!

Coach Sean

I still believe that a 6 and under state championship is to young for baseball, football, basketball, tennis, track, boxing, or whatever.

Coach Sean


I had to go back to the 2003 Archives (when the talk forum was just beginning) to get some info on this very same topic. Here it is and there was a whole bunch more.

Member Member # 21 posted April 03, 2003 09:30 PMApril 03, 2003 09:30 PM This topic has been discussed at great length for the last four or five years and it has ran off people from coming to the state meeting because they would argue about it for so long. District II has been pushing to add 6&U at state the other three districts have been apposed.Now not everyone in district II is in favor nor are all the people in the other districts apposed. But last year we voted for 6&U at state and it got turned down 70% to 30%. This year was the first state meeting without discussing it and it was nice.The main reason everyone used was it put to much pressure on the 6 yr. olds to wrestle at state.


smokeycabin Member Member # 17 posted April 04, 2003 04:53 AMApril 04, 2003 04:53 AM 6 & UNDER STATE IS TO YOUNG PERIOD. I know I am not speaking for everyone. I have coached youth wrestling for over twenty years. I have coached 5 year olds and I have coached college all-americans. I also vote at the state body meeting and I will never vote for 6 & under state. We do not need to put false expectations into these young childrens minds. A 6 & under state champ may not make it back to state for another 4 years or ever. This creates false expectations in the child and in the parents who think their kid is the toughest roughest rumbler this side of the Mississippi. My son was an pretty decent wrestler at six and under and won the majority of his matches in the two tournaments I let him pick to enter. When he graduated to 8 & under and he was all of 7 years old he was getting it handed to him pretty hard by some eight year olds. When he was eight he dealt some of the 7 year olds a whipping. I think as a whole that is the natural progression the majority of kids make. I as a coach do not want to burn out the young participants when he or she is in eigth grade. I have seen it all to often that a parent is trying to create a national/olympic champion. Your child is not you and never will be you. So lets stop all this nonsense for a 6 & under world champ. I have seen parents run their kids out of baseball, football, track, tennis, golf, etc. Do not live your life through your childs eyes.I have seen parents way out of hand watching the six and under group and our sport doesn't need that kind of pressure put on these young people.The boys and girls will grow up at their own pace - not in your or my time frame. THE END!

It is not my intention to eliminate opportunities for these youngsters. If a few of the parents around the mats for 6 & under would act like the majority of parents IN THE STANDS. I call it "The Grizzley Sow Syndrom" Where Moms and Dads are initially there to protect their cubs, but then end up fighting with other Moms, Dads, Grandparents, Coaches, Refs, and even Kids from the other team. It is very hard to coach and help someone's child when a parent is screaming in my ear quit crying, get up, get mad, etc. These verbal coaching techniques are not in the books on coaching wrestling. I have heard MUCH MUCH worse than the above mentioned but I'll keep that out of the forum. Have you ever seen the number of coaches per kid at the eight and under state tournament in each corner. Some of those coaches have a camera, camcorder, - some (1/2 or more) of those in the corner do not have a coach’s card. Could you imagine the 6 & under. I hope that day does not come. Some parents have "Press Passes" - I did not know Kansas had that many local papers following kids wrestling. I do not want to get into any personal attacks or discussions about any specific kid, family or club. 5 and 6 year olds - yes 1/3 to 1/2 half of their life they have been in diapers.

Coach Sean

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#173277 - 10/13/10 06:48 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
I know a lot of other kids that want to drive a car when they are 10, 12 years old - they need to wait their turn. KSHSAA - High School doesn't have a JV State tournament.

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#173278 - 10/13/10 07:03 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Why kids ditch youth sports
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1. Print this page
"Fun" is a key element of good youth sports programs
Kids join youth sports programs in droves -- and drop out in droves. Twenty million to 30 million 6- to 18-year-olds participate in youth sports programs, but around 80 percent opt out by the age of 12.
Coaching and the "fun factor" contribute to this attrition rate, say Indiana University coaching experts. Kids join such programs largely to have fun -- and they drop out when it's no longer fun. Pressure and competition need to take a back seat to the development of fundamental skills and enjoyment.
"In this country, we often use a 'warm body approach' in youth sport coaching," said David Gallahue, dean of IU Bloomington's School of Health, Physical Education and Recreation and co-author of Understanding Motor Development: Infants, Children, Adolescents, Adults (McGraw Hill, 2006).
In other words schools and recreation programs in the U.S. frequently resort to taking what they can get, often turning to well intentioned but ill prepared parents with little or no coaching experience to work with young athletes. Countries such as Canada, Australia and Great Britain require youth coaches to have certain levels of certification. If no certified coaches are available, no teams are created.
Coaches and parents should take as much pressure off of the kids as possible, because undue pressure can drive young athletes away from the sport prematurely.
"Parents and coaches should not attempt to live out their own fantasies and shortcomings through their children," said track and field expert Phillip Henson, who helps coordinate the coaching minor degree program in HPER's Department of Kinesiology. "The primary purpose of youth sports is to have fun."
Gallahue, who has advised USA Gymnastics and U.S. Ski and Snowboard Association on coaching education, and Henson, who directed the field events at the 1996 Olympic Games, offered the following suggestions to parents and coaches:
• Parents should look for the narrowest age range possible, with two-year spans being preferable. Kids who are closer in age get along better. They have similar physical, social and cognitive development levels, although their skill levels could vary widely.
• Very few sports require athletes to specialize before the age of 10 to be really good. For sports such as gymnastics, figure skating, diving and alpine skiing, early specialization may be a plus. Just about everything else requires no such early specialization, Gallahue said.
• The primary focus in youth sports should be on developing skills, not just on competition. Children do not automatically acquire basic skills such as swimming, throwing, bouncing and balancing -- skills that can lead to more specific sport skills, such as throwing a baseball or dribbling a basketball, Gallahue said. They need the time and space to practice, as well as quality instruction and positive encouragement. The bulk of youth sports, even at the middle school and high school levels, should focus on developing skill and tactics, he said, with a growing proportion of the time devoted to actual competition. In the early years, for example, 80 to 90 percent of the practice time should be devoted to skill development, with this decreasing to 40 to 60 percent in the later years.
• Helping children find success is key to making youth sports fun. Parents and coaches should help kids set realistic goals -- such as achieving a personal best -- that do not hinge on winning or losing a match.
• Children should not be treated like miniature adults.
• Attempt to take as much pressure off of the children as possible. This includes pressure to win, or to "be the best." Value needs to be placed on the needs of the children not the performance.
• New coaches can find coaching resources at Human Kinetics (http://www.humankinetics.com/), a publisher of sports and physical activity media.

How to Decrease the Dropout Rate in Youth Sports
By Caroline Carter, eHow Contributor
updated: May 6, 2010

Getting kids to stay in sports.
The National Alliance for Youth Sports states that of the roughly 40 million boys and girls playing sports in America, approximately 75 percent will drop out by the time they are 13. According to a University of Maryland critical survey on youth and sports in America, every year the attrition rate is 35 percent, and by the age of 11 most of the better players will get channeled off to select travel team opportunities. Other players drift to different interests as they approach adolescence. Bad experiences also contribute to kids dropping out of sports, but there are a few things parents and coaches can do to keep kids interested in youth sports.
Difficulty: Moderately Challenging
Instructions
1. 1

Focus on fun.
Take away the focus on winning and replace it with skill development and fun. Cut down on the amount of games and tournaments played. Set adult expectations aside and figure out what it is that the children need from playing organized sports, and then start serving those needs. Seek out low-cost, no-travel house league programs.
2. 2

Seek professional assistance from those who can help you make a difference in your community.
Access professionals who can help you set up action committees in your area. For help, look up helpful websites like Bobbigelow.com (see Resources). Bigelow is a former NBA player who helps communities restructure their sports programs. He believes that the current focus on adult sports models for kids is not in kids' best interests, and he is a proponent of learning new skills, participation, fun and properly managed competition.
3. 3

Change up your kids' play.
Decrease the grueling hours committed to the sport. Limit the burnout factor for young players by encouraging other interests, whether it be in other sports, music or art. When the time devoted to your kids' sports starts to interfere with them just being kids, pull back the reigns a bit and let them enjoy simply playing in the driveway with friends. Kids can pick up a lot about sports by creatively playing on their own or with friends, unencumbered and with no coaching


Read more: How to Decrease the Dropout Rate in Youth Sports | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_6163082_decrease-dropout-rate-youth-sports.html#ixzz12EtwZBMv

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#173282 - 10/13/10 07:44 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
sportsfan02 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 2647
Loc: Kansas
Unless I am mistaken, we already have an unofficial 6U state. What is the difference? The current 6U state tournament is IMO much more grueling than a recognized elimination format like we have for other ages. In addition, we allow 6U kids to wrestle up in age for the current qualifiers. Unless we are willing to ban all kids under the age of 7 from participation there will always be opportunities for the 6U crowd!
I am more in favor of encouraging all clubs to look after their own kids and protect them from over-zealous parents, regardless of the age. Until such time as we ban the 6U kids, I say let them have their own state! Not having a qualifier for the 6U group is another one of those "feel good" ideas that is just silly.
_________________________

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#173286 - 10/13/10 09:27 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: sportsfan02]
in it to win it Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 393
Loc: SEK
That is the current motion....to only allow 7 & 8 year olds to participate in subs and for 6 & U to have their State. I'm uncertain with what's wrong with their State right now? The T-shirt says 6 & Under State Championship. They all get to go & wrestle out their 20 or 30+ man bracket!

I don't understand WHY we need to add 6 & U State to the current series. The kids are only 6 for pete's sake K & 1st graders! I don't understand why it's constantly re-emerging as a topic.

Some one enlighten me. Very good points made Coach Sean.
_________________________
In it to win it.

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#173288 - 10/13/10 10:12 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: in it to win it]
sportsfan02 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 2647
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: in it to win it
I'm uncertain with what's wrong with their State right now?

For one, we never should have allowed any club to use the word "State" in the title of their tournament. The word "State" should be reserved for only those tournaments sponsored or held by the state body as a whole.

Originally Posted By: in it to win it
The T-shirt says 6 & Under State Championship. They all get to go & wrestle out their 20 or 30+ man bracket!

So explain the logic of not holding a true State tournament when one is already being held again. We say we don't want a State tournament when one is already in existence? A true State tournament that would not have 30+ man brackets and thus would eliminate some of the stress on the kids!

Originally Posted By: in it to win it
I don't understand WHY we need to add 6 & U State to the current series. The kids are only 6 for pete's sake K & 1st graders! I don't understand why it's constantly re-emerging as a topic.

The only ones who should not support a true 6U State tournament are the members of the Ottawa Wrestling Club!

Originally Posted By: in it to win it
Some one enlighten me.

I think I just did.
_________________________

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#173290 - 10/13/10 10:19 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: in it to win it]
Pelland Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/07
Posts: 320
Loc: Pratt
I don't think the current motion is to add the 6u to the state series. From what I gather, it will be it's own series. Each district will have a qualifier the Sunday after H.S. regionals, then the 6U state tournament will be the Sunday after H.S. State.....site to be determined.

At first glance, I thought that the 6U kids would have the option of wrestling either in the 6u series or the March series, but I think I was wrong. I think this motion would eliminate 6u wrestlers in March.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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#173293 - 10/13/10 10:28 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Pelland]
in it to win it Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 393
Loc: SEK
You're right Pelland. It would allow the 6 & U's to have their "own series" & eliminate their participation in subs.

Sportsfan you're "so enlightening"! grin
_________________________
In it to win it.

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#173310 - 10/13/10 06:28 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: in it to win it]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
I hope the discussion is short on this topic at the district and state meeting. It is Yes or No. If we as a state body are trying to DEVELOP Kids over time - a 6 & under state tournament is not my idea of developing them - just my opinion.

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#173312 - 10/13/10 06:43 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Pelland Offline
Member

Registered: 07/30/07
Posts: 320
Loc: Pratt
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin
If we as a state body are trying to DEVELOP Kids over time - a 6 & under state tournament is not my idea of developing them - just my opinion.


I understand what your saying, but explain to me what the difference is. Either they wrestle in the "STATE" series, or they go to Ottawa. Either way they are wrestling. Actually, the way it is today, they can wrestle both. The proposal would actually be better if too much wrestling is bad.

Personally, I don't know what stance to take.

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#173313 - 10/13/10 07:02 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Pelland]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
I understand what your saying, but explain to me what the difference is. Either they wrestle in the "STATE" series, or they go to Ottawa. Either way they are wrestling. Actually, the way it is today, they can wrestle both. The proposal would actually be better if too much wrestling is bad.

Personally, I don't know what stance to take.

Ottawa tournament is run by one club. The state tournament series would be run by each district and the state organization.
I do not have Ottawa on our schedule and I will not have a six and under state tournament series on our schedule.

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#173320 - 10/13/10 09:20 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
in it to win it Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 393
Loc: SEK
Same here on the discussion for Sunday. Where are the Proponents for supporting the 6 & U state? Are we attempting to eliminate Ottawa's 6 & U State stronghold?

Altogether this should be within the Novice umbrella as these wrestlers are Novice falling into < 2 years of experience. Then again our low wt's in 8 and under (4o# or so) when the class's top weight is 125#. I would be interested in knowng how many 7 & 8 year olds truly weigh 40 lbs and is this class filled primarily of 6 & U's?
_________________________
In it to win it.

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#173323 - 10/13/10 10:55 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: in it to win it]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3826
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Originally Posted By: in it to win it
Same here on the discussion for Sunday. Where are the Proponents for supporting the 6 & U state? Are we attempting to eliminate Ottawa's 6 & U State stronghold?

Altogether this should be within the Novice umbrella as these wrestlers are Novice falling into < 2 years of experience. Then again our low wt's in 8 and under (4o# or so) when the class's top weight is 125#. I would be interested in knowng how many 7 & 8 year olds truly weigh 40 lbs and is this class filled primarily of 6 & U's?


Let me be the first but I am guessing there are over 2,000 others who are right behind me. First off I really don't want to make this about Ottawa. Rick has done a fine job running an unofficial but sanctioned event. However, that event in itself became problematic. The brackets were too big, the travel was lengthy, and it is too late in the season.

The proposal is to have District tournaments conducted on the Sunday after HS regionals. The top four from the four districts will qualify for state in Salina the following weekend which is the Sunday after 4A State. This will be a USAWKS Kansas Kids State Tournament. The qualifying will be standardized and the age division will be defined just as the other recognized groups who will be wrestling later in March. This will end the season for 6U wrestlers in February. It will limit the brackets to 16. The event will be in a large arena instead of a high school. The awards and brackets will be the same as the other age divisions wrestled in Topeka. The drive will be four hours or less for ANYONE who lives in Kansas. It will end at a decent hour allowing these kids to be home and in bed for school the next day.

The 6U group CANNOT be added to the existing event. The existing event is already too large for the arena and city it is held in. (We run out of quality hotel rooms every year, wrestling on partial mats for 8U, 10U, and 12U is just not good!) The Pros FAR outweigh the cons.

I hope that everyone will JUST SAY YES and make this happen for the 2,000 plus 6U wrestlers we have buying USA Wrestling Cards. I don't have a 6U wrestler but I will be there to help and see the smiles on their faces!
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173357 - 10/14/10 10:31 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
If this passes do not add another weekend date - I already go to about 16 to 20 tournaments during a folkstyle season - that is between Novice and Open tournaments. I will still vote NO either way - from a district and state viewpoint on the importance of having a 6 and under state tournament.

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#173359 - 10/14/10 10:37 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3826
Loc: Lawrence, KS
The proposal eliminates the Sunday date now used by Ottawa as the 6U season will be basically over. The two Sundays we are proposing are now used by clubs for Novice tournaments so the proposal doesn't really ADD a date. But, that said, Smokey, you don't have to go and STA doesn't have to send any 6U to the district or state tournament. This is an idea that the good far outweighs the bad.

I guess I would like to understand WHY you say NO.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173365 - 10/14/10 10:51 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
How many other sports (baseball, softball, soccer, etc.,) in Kansas have a 6 & under state tournament? I do not know. Also how long of a season do these other 6 & under sports last?
And I will not go to a 6 & under kids wrestling state series tournament. We may lose a few six and under signups - but that is OK also.

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#173367 - 10/14/10 10:53 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
4 & under state next year and diaper nationals the following.

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#173368 - 10/14/10 10:55 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3826
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin
How many other sports (baseball, softball, soccer, etc.,) in Kansas have a 6 & under state tournament? I do not know. Also how long of a season do these other 6 & under sports last?
And I will not go to a 6 & under kids wrestling state series tournament. We may lose a few six and under signups - but that is OK also.


I am still not seeing HOW an option to compete and be measured against your peers is a BAD thing? It basically appears that you are saying VOTE NO BECAUSE SMOKEY DOESN'T LIKE THE IDEA.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173372 - 10/14/10 12:05 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
in it to win it Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 393
Loc: SEK
They should be involved in the Novice division. i.e. NOVICE Championships. I echo smokey's viewpoint.

Ottawa by the way has done a very fine job of creating this tournament...why the Yank now?

I realize the centrality of Salina & the nice facility but do you really think the draw of a 6 & U State (160 kids) with 16 kids in each of the classes 37 lbs - 66 lbs & HWT = approx 10 wt. classes. 16 (wrestlers providing filled bracket) + approx 10 classes (37# - 66# + HWT. classes) x 10 fans at each wt. door admission same as USAW - Kansas wrestling fees? Will really exalt the child into further love of the sport with ultimate aim to wrestle HS & further? How would this amount offset facility fee; referee expenses, awards expenses? The Math just doesn't inch towards the black too well. tired

So, approximately altogether a State Tournament ran with USAKS funds for 160 6 & U wrestlers. Each of those 6 & U participants paying state fee's ($20.00 x 16 x 10 = $3200 for entry fees providing all brackets are full 16). Top 6 get awards (similar/identical to the State awards). (expense unknown).
Each 160 wrestler's bring 4 adults to watch and approx 2 student equivalent of approximate ($4.00 = Adult (> 13) ==> $2560 if possible; ($2.00 gate fee for each wrestler's chilfren 5-12) ==> $640...So, approximately $3,000 in gate fees.

I am unsure of Ottawa's prices.

As well, with 6 & U's being "over after" (District: Feb. 20 & State: 27 2011)--The following clubs having already scheduled their tournaments would have to eliminate 5 & 6 y.o.'s OR would you allow them to wrestle providing they wrestled in the 8 & U division? (Douglass Jr. Open & Ellworth County Open).

_________________________
In it to win it.

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#173374 - 10/14/10 12:20 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
BLT Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 934
So a few questions...
Will wrestlers get the choice of wrestling either tournament??
And what about all the lower weightst at 8u that are made up mostly of 6U...
Will those be revisited or eliminated in order to have fuller brackets or to save a little time at the state tournament?

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