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#173939 - 10/28/10 05:55 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Below is another related issue to that age group as well as other age groups and definitely applies and should be addressed. Not only the child that is being broke down - but the kids and parents standing around watching it are affected.


some my not like this post but thats the way it is. after attending alot of tournaments this year and being in ottawa, i have witnessed a lot of coaches or parents yelling at there kids after a match. now if your a parent yelling at your kid, because he made a mistake or lost you need help, and if your a coach and doing it then you might think twice about being a coach!!! you can talk to a kid and get the same affect as yelling no need to degrade the kid. i really feel bad for one in ottawa those near me that post on here knows what corner of the gym that took place. but there were others as well.

all i can say is those that yell at a kid for losing or a mistake needs to enter themselfs into one of these old timer tournaments and see if they to make a mistake.

ANGER HAS NO PLACE AROUND THIS SPORT OR YOUR CHILDREN.


Edited by nix (03/19/08 06:24 PM)
_________________________
WRESTLE YOUR BEST OR LOSE LIKE THE REST!!!

jeff nix.
620-214-0433



Allie
Member

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 156
Loc: Northeast Kansas I agree with you. I have seen many coaches (who are also their wrestlers Dad) who don't even wait until their kid is off of the mat before they lay into them. Poor kids lose their match and have someone that they look up to berating them. I'm very thankful that the coaches is our club are all very calm with our wrestlers.

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#173941 - 10/28/10 06:56 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
OMMCP Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 48
In 180 post on this topic, this being 181, this is the most intelligent and meaningful thing posted to date.

now if your a parent yelling at your kid, because he made a mistake or lost you need help, and if your a coach and doing it then you might think twice about being a coach!!! you can talk to a kid and get the same affect as yelling no need to degrade the kid.

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#173942 - 10/28/10 08:07 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: OMMCP]
shawnbudke Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 372
Loc: Leavenworth, KS
Just want to add another perspective that hasn't been discussed (this actually surprised me).....

I asked my son and a couple of other wrestlers in our club what they thought and their opinions. These kids are now around the 12 year old age. They wrestled in the 6u state at Ottawa and have wrestled in the regular state for the older kids. They were also part of the 32-64 man brackets when they wrestled at 6U.

They response was....don't change it. Keep 6U at Ottawa like it is. I asked, even with the big brackets.....answer: yes. I explained about having it in Salina and being focused on them, etc.......answer: don't change it. They loved the 6U state at Ottawa for all the reasons that folks have stated for keeping it the same.

Now I am not sure what all this means or if it will sway the way our club votes but it was a different perspective and one that surprised me.

The only thing I know for sure is that whichever way the vote goes........A HUGE THANKS and RESPECT are owed to Rick, Matt and all the other folks that gave these kids the opportunity at Ottawa for so many years.

See you all on Sunday.

Shawn

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#173957 - 10/28/10 02:38 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
BLT Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 934
The thing that worries me the most is adding a qualifier and seperate state.
Forget about how long the season is because its only going to get longer.
The schedule is so stacked up with tournaments each and every weekend and you want to add 2 more. Clubs need tournaments to fund their teams. We can't afford to lose any more weekends.
I was a big fan of adding HS to our state tournament (because I was hoping for a grand state type event that won't ever happen) but I am now thinking that if we add the 6U to that event and drop HS then we would still have enough space. Maybe even do a little wrestling on Friday night???
I love the idea of 6U at state or their own. But there has to be a better way to schedule it.
I still say vote yes!!!

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#173961 - 10/28/10 03:56 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: BLT]
A. Steele Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 149
Loc: White City, KS
I have two wrestlers that wrestled in Ottawa. They still talk about the 32 man brackets they were in. They also (even at 11 and 13 years old) wish the season wasn't so long. One of them made a suggestion not made on here either. Keep the States in Ottawa but move it into Feb. and just make that tournament the "Official" 6&U State. I still say yes to this so the 6&U kids that are already wrestling competitively get the same rewards as their older teamates.

Andrew Steele
_________________________
Andrew Steele
ford69f100@yahoo.com

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#173965 - 10/28/10 05:27 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: A. Steele]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas

From 2005 to 2010

Percent growth by age groups. Thanks to USA Wrestling for providing the data I requested earlier.

Below is a summary.

10 & Under in Kansas is growing faster than the national group as a whole. Between 2005-2010 Kansas grew at 27 % and the nation grew at 19.15%.

From 2005-2010 in the ages 11-14 Kansas grew at 11.83% and the nation grew at 10.22%.

In the ages between 15-18 Kansas grew at 6.04% and the nation grew at 9.96%.

Overall numbers - USA Wrestling Kansas grew at 18.09% and USA Wrestling grew at 13.09%.




2005 to 2010


10 & Under

Kansas - 27%
USA - 19.15%

11-14

Kansas - 11.83%
USA - 10.22%


15-18

Kansas - 6.04%
USA - 9.96%%

Totals
Kansas - 18.09%
USA - 13.09%

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#173967 - 10/28/10 05:44 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: A. Steele]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3826
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Originally Posted By: A. Steele
I have two wrestlers that wrestled in Ottawa. They still talk about the 32 man brackets they were in. They also (even at 11 and 13 years old) wish the season wasn't so long. One of them made a suggestion not made on here either. Keep the States in Ottawa but move it into Feb. and just make that tournament the "Official" 6&U State. I still say yes to this so the 6&U kids that are already wrestling competitively get the same rewards as their older teamates.

Andrew Steele


Do you or your boys have any idea how far it is from Liberal, KS or Colby, KS to Ottawa, KS? Just curious...
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173977 - 10/28/10 08:40 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
creach boys Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 43
Loc: qttawa, ks.
It is 45 minutes further to Ottawa than Topeka. That is a mute point when you have alot of the same famlies traveling for the older kids to go to state.

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#173979 - 10/28/10 09:00 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: creach boys]
creach boys Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 43
Loc: qttawa, ks.
Will just why are you so passionate about this subject any how? You don't even have a 6year old do you? Do you have any idea how many kids were in Ottawa last year (about 300 to 350)? Why don"t you ask the people in Salina it they could make or loose money with a tournament at the Bi-center with those numbers. You do realize that they make nothing off of concessions and other things there, don"t you? Ask them why the coaches room was across the street last year, I beleve it was because of the Bi-Center rules. So if you realy are willing to pick up the tab if NO money is made, or was that just something to say to make your point?

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#173980 - 10/28/10 09:02 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: creach boys]
dagwood Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 265
That is one reason why we should move state to Wichita then it too would be more centrally located.
_________________________
Darren Newton

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#173982 - 10/28/10 09:11 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: dagwood]
creach boys Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 43
Loc: qttawa, ks.
In all technicallity Salina is the most centraly located and has the best roads to travel from east to west, north to south. They also have the room to handle it all. Including the 6year olds.

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#173984 - 10/28/10 09:20 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: creach boys]
ReDPloyd Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1298
Salina has that all you can eat, everything you can eat, more than you can eat, eat 'til your eyes pop out, or worse, can't wait 'til morning to get rid of what I ate, would love to go back and eat some more tomorrow, buffet place. I think it was called the Western Sizzler, or something like that. If they have the Kid's State out there, I might have to go back, whether my son makes it to State or not.
_________________________
Lee Girard

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#173994 - 10/29/10 01:13 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: A. Steele]
palamino74 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/27/10
Posts: 3
I realize the kids club season is long. Too long for some kids but for others like my 3 who are just turned 12, about to turn 13 and 15 the season is not long enough. My 13 year old would wrestle year round if I let him. He passed up a chance to go see his favorite sister in NY so he could practice 4 times a day at the mizzou tiger style wrestling camp. He was signed up for another wrestling summer camp but they didn't have enough boys for his session and the only other option was to go when he was scheduled for mizzou. As soon as District (unfortunately he didn't place in district) he started going to the gym 3 times a week to train for this season. Durring the off season he reads his wrestling magazines and asks me REPEATEDLY when season will start. That's what is so great about wrestling is it's not like football where the whole team has to be at every game. If the season is to long for some let them sit out a month and than start training again when subs come into view. There is no rule (at least none I know of) that says all the kids have to compete in a certain number of tournaments to qualify for subs. Show up for the mets your child wants to compete in and hold out for the others.

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#173998 - 10/29/10 08:58 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: palamino74]
A. Steele Offline
Member

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 149
Loc: White City, KS
Will,
I am supporting your idea. I do know that Ottawa is not a central location and the folks out west have a terrible drive to get there. I was just bring up what my boys brought up during our clubs parents meeting.

Palamino
As far as the season being to long for my boys they still wrestler every year and then move into GR/FS until the end of june. I think they would prefer to wrestle GR/FS long than folkstyle.

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers just thowing some comments that came up during our clubs meeting. I am still votong in favor of this.

Andrew Steele
_________________________
Andrew Steele
ford69f100@yahoo.com

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#174018 - 10/29/10 04:05 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: A. Steele]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Still tabulating data -


Source: Data was collect from USA Wrestling, The yes/no portion was collected from individual state websites, some trackwrestling results were used to find age groups used at state tournaments.


2010 USA Wrestling 10 and Under Participants by State and what states offer a 6 & under state tournament. The states with 1000 or more 10 & under USA Card/Participants was the cut off. Several states have a mix of AAU memebership. I think PA is mainly AAU and they do not have a 6 & under state tournament.


Offer a
6 & Under
STATE 10 & Younger State Tournament
Series

The data below the first number is the number of 10 & under by state in rank order, then it is yes or no if they have a 6 & state tournament.


Illinois 6451 No
California 4587 No
Kansas 4558 No
Wisconsin 3791 No
Indiana 3481 Yes and has a qualifier
Missouri 2929 No
Oregon 2556 No
New York 2214 No
Georgia 1876 Open tournament - 1 weekend
Ohio 1796 No
Minnesota 1720 Yes and has a qualifier
Washington 1577 Open tournament - 1 weekend
Idaho 1443 Open tournament - 1 weekend
Wyoming 1427 Open tournament - 1 weekend
Texas 1354 No
Connecticut 1137 No
Maryland 1090 No
New Jersey 1001 No


There were 18 states with 1000 or more 10 & under participants - Of those 18 states only 2 have a 6 & Under
State tournament with a qualifier. 16 of the 18 states do not offer a 6 & under state tournament over multiple weekends.

Also of note: Indiana and Minnesota the 2 states with qualifying tournaments for 6 & under.
Both states showed a decline in numbers and percentage in the age group 11-14 and 15-18, between 2005 and 2010.

Between 2005-2010 - USA Wrestling Participants
Minnesota Growth rates by age group
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 33.85% 435
11-14 -0.40% -5
15-18 -4.57% -49



Between 2005-2010
Indiana Growth rates by age group
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 13.31% 409
11-14 -4.95% -147
15-18 -34.79% -184

Other states that do not have a 6 & under Arizona, Colorado,
Louisiana, Iowa, New Mexico

States with open tournaments called state held on 1 weekend,
Florida, Michigan, North Carolina, Nebraska,

I have heard that Oklahoma has a 6 & state tournament. I will have to check that. Yes they do have a 6 & under division at the state tournament with a regional qualifier.
http://okseries.com/youth/flyers10/okwastatetournament2010.htm





Edited by smokeycabin (10/29/10 04:25 PM)

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#174036 - 10/30/10 02:56 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
BLT Offline
Member

Registered: 02/01/08
Posts: 934
Ohhh Smokey...
When this thing passes what will you do with all that time you will have on your hands from not having to dig up all this info that 90% of the people who read this thread pay no attention to?

Your passion is to be commended but your beating a dead horse IMO...

A friend told me...
"Ya its fun to beat a dead horse in the begining but after a short while you look pretty stupid standing there beating a dead horse"

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#174039 - 10/30/10 05:07 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: BLT]
ReDPloyd Offline
Member

Registered: 01/02/08
Posts: 1298
Whether this thing passes or not, I really don't care. I have two more boys, one who has wrestled two years and will still qualify as U6 if he chooses to wrestle this year, and the other one being three and a half. My wife tells me that the three and a half year old will be a very good wrestler (can't debate her and win, if you know what I mean).

My first son wrestled three seasons and it just wasn't his deal. My second should be starting his first High School season this year after toiling nine season on the Kid's circuit. You already know about my third and fourth based on the information I provided above. To date, the most accomplished of the four didn't wrestle in the Kid's State series of tournaments until he was eight. I wouldn't change a thing, and the younger ones will have to wait to wrestle in the State qualifying tournaments (if they are wrestling) until they are in the U8 bracket.
_________________________
Lee Girard

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#174040 - 10/30/10 05:29 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: ReDPloyd]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Ohhh BLT -

That is to bad that some of these folks do not read these forums and want to be informed about developing their kids and growing wrestling in a common sense and responsible way. I will present some of the data to the state body, executive comittee, the state tournament comittee, and the proposer - most of them read these forums.

Sean McCarthy
STA Kids Club

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#174042 - 10/30/10 06:26 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Pelland]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4195
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Total population growth by state from 2004-2009

Kansas grew by 87,982 residents or 3.22% from 2004-2009
Indiana grew by 208,658 residents or 3.36% from 2004-2009
Minnesota grew by 186,870 residents or 3.68% from 2004-2009

Source: US Census Bureau


Also of note: Indiana and Minnesota the 2 states with qualifying tournaments for 6 & under.
Both states showed a decline in numbers and percentage in the age groups 11-14 and 15-18, between 2005 and 2010.

Between 2005-2010 - USA Wrestling Participants
Minnesota Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 33.85% 435
11-14 -0.40% -5
15-18 -4.57% -49

Between 2005-2010
Indiana Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 13.31% 409
11-14 -4.95% -147
15-18 -34.79% -184

Between 2005-2010
Kansas Growth rates by age group

Percentage change &
Actual Number gain/loss
Participant/Card Holders
10 & Under 27.00% 969
11-14 11.83 305
15-18 6.04% 89

Source: USA Wrestling


I just wanted to give everyone (who reads this) a peak into the future of what can happen by putting more and more pressure on kids at a younger age. If we want to grow Kansas and USA wrestling participants and membership in every state - it looks to me that states with a 6 & under state tournament championship series should not be part of the model.

If voted in as a yes it will take 5 years to see the real effect.
Additionally, it will take another 5 years to reverse the effect.

I am pretty sure the short term gain will have some adverse long term results. In business I would much rather have the results from the current Kansas model compared to trying what the results show in the other 2 states above.

I am not willing to gamble on a proposal that may take 10 years to reverse its effects.


Edited by smokeycabin (10/30/10 06:31 AM)

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#174043 - 10/30/10 06:33 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
sportsfan02 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 2647
Loc: Kansas
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin
I will present some of the data to the state body,

Please tell me you aren't presenting any of this crap from the floor of the meeting? This is exactly why people don't show up for the meeting, is silly stuff like you have been posting here! People have the information it's time to vote, up or down.
_________________________

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