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#173400 - 10/14/10 03:47 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Benelli Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 89
Loc: S.E. Kansas
As easily as you googled "anti kids sports", I supposed you could google "pro kids sports"??

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#173401 - 10/14/10 03:49 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin
Cost should not be the issue!

Seriously Will,

Provide me a link, an article, and or data that supports your position. I have tried to find one - not many out there.

Sean


What do you want me to prove? Why do I need to find an article by some gurus that states points countering your barrage? What does that prove? Missouri has a 6U Kids wrestling state. Does that help? There are 6U age groups at National Wrestling events all over the country and people attend, does that count? What do you want? What are you against? What is your proposal?

The attendance and participation speaks for itself. You are trying to create a different debate. Come to the state body meeting and propose "NO 6U TOURNAMENTS SHOULD BE WRESTLED AND NO 6U KIDS SHOULD BE BUYING USA CARDS." and see where you get to with that. The proposal is solid and the market will speak for itself.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173402 - 10/14/10 03:50 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Benelli]
Benelli Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 89
Loc: S.E. Kansas
I think Ottawa's numbers prove that they will come.Put it more central in the state and it can only grow.
It's up to the parents to contemplate the morals of weather a 5 or 6 year old should wrestle a State tourney.


Edited by Benelli (10/14/10 03:51 PM)

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#173403 - 10/14/10 04:01 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Benelli]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Originally Posted By: Benelli
I think Ottawa's numbers prove that they will come.Put it more central in the state and it can only grow.
It's up to the parents to contemplate the morals of weather a 5 or 6 year old should wrestle a State tourney.


Right on! I think I said that somewhere in the barrage of thesis papers.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173404 - 10/14/10 04:07 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Benelli]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4236
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
It is up to the clubs to vote on - Yes or NO 6 & under state tournament series. It is not up to the parents unless they start their own club, get sanctioned and pay their fees as a USAWKS
sanctioned organization. I believe it is great to get kids exposed (a few tournaments during novice and then they are done)to the sport at 5 and 6 years old, teach them the fundementals, let them grow into the sport and wait for their opportunity to go to a state tournament. If all the decisions were strictly left up to the parents to decide then there wouldn't be any need for coaches, club directors and the state body. If the parents want to make a big change they had better be willing to spend a several hundred hours a year helping out with tournaments, practice, and going to meetings. I can except either vote - I just do not believe we are doing the "Right Thing" for the sport or the kids long term.

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#173405 - 10/14/10 04:24 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
in it to win it Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 393
Loc: SEK
I can't fathom the central KS wind breaking even on this one. (The Ottawa tourney & it's inclusiveness---allowing all who sign up have a good idea)....when it comes to the bottom $.

Are you certain there will be 80 6 U kids weighing 80# and more across KS that make it to STATE after wrestling in FULL brackets in Districts to completely fill the next 5 weight classes @ 80 & above?

Another miconstrued notion battling this wind is that families with 6 & U's are going to spend more $$ while entering a H.S. State Wrestling tournament Series of 4 A studs when their parents could save a load of $ by taking them to their nearest Chuckie Cheese. Besides what do most 6 & U's do at most tournaments? (Run & Play with their Game boys)...

This motion has been poorly substantiated by any verifiable data that is supportive of the details.

This vote should be NO by all means let these kids wrestle Novice Championship. Their day will come if they stick it out & don't think they're sitting on top of the World as a KS State Champ @ 6U in the 90# division amongst perhaps 2 others in his State Bracket.
_________________________
In it to win it.

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#173406 - 10/14/10 04:53 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: in it to win it]
teamgarate Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 146
K, i been reading all these posts, minus the googled articles!
im trying to understand what the argument is here!

is the vote for NO 6&U wrestlers at all? or is the vote for the restructuring of the 6&U state championship that is ALREADY going on?

I like the proposal of making the 6&U state championship more centrally located to draw more kids, And a Bigger Venue and shortening the season for 6&U that way they dont get burnt out. and they would have to qualify thru 1 round to make it to state,, should be nice practice for when they have to qualify thru 2 rounds in 8&U.

i really dont see the Negative about this?? except for Ottawa losing out on hosting this tournament.. which they have done an Awesome Job everytime i been there for it!!
_________________________
Carlos Garate

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#173407 - 10/14/10 05:47 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: teamgarate]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4236
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Benelli
Member

Registered: January, 08 2007
Posts: 85
Loc: S.E. Kansas As easily as you googled "anti kids sports", I supposed you could google "pro kids sports"??

"Anti kids sports"

That is why I have been doing it for over 25 years.

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#173416 - 10/15/10 08:31 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
bloomy6 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 03/01/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Independence, KS
please correct me if im wrong, but my understanding was that Ottawa stepped up and started this 6U state championship when no one else either wanted to or was willing to. In my experience, they put on a great tourny with some space issues. The last time I was there was 2007, my son's last year at 6U and they weren't running both gyms at the time. I believe Rick opened the second gym the following year. The brackets were huge and i can tell you that they youngsters in our club were excited to be going. It may make for a long season but the coaches and parents should be structuring practice and involvement for kids that age, as i have been learning over the years with my son, to keep their interest in the sport over the course of that season. I know a couple of years ago that there was a competing state tournament with Ottawa. How did that go over? I guess my question is, does this topic come up every year for vote? Every other year? Why not make the state series 7&8 year olds and let Ottatwa continue to run the 6U state tournament? Why would we vote this tournament away from a club that wants to do it? The bracket sizes show that people are willing to drive to attend this tournament.
_________________________
Shawn Bloomfield
Indy Wrestling Club

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#173417 - 10/15/10 08:35 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Benelli Offline
Member

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 89
Loc: S.E. Kansas
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin

"Anti kids sports"

That is why I have been doing it for over 25 years.


Wasn't meant to be an insult. Maybe I should rephrase-

As easy as it was to find negative articles, I would imagine it would be just as easy to find positive articles.

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#173422 - 10/15/10 10:32 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Benelli]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4236
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Don't forget the other 75% (kids and parents of current 7-18 and year olds) and coaches who have been around for a long time who make the opportunites possible for 6 & unders to be introduced to the sport and develop them. That 75% plus group is the backbone of USAWKS - who have put in thousands of hours to develop kids from one age group to the next. There are also many, many people that no longer have kids involved and still give of their knowledge and time. How many people have particpated in a 6 & under state championship(any type) in their lifetime - young and old? How many people can look back and say -boy I wish there was a state championship when I was 5 or 6 years old?


Edited by smokeycabin (10/15/10 11:57 AM)

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#173424 - 10/15/10 10:58 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Benelli]
in it to win it Offline
Member

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 393
Loc: SEK
Great statement bloomy6.

One last discussion on this proposal.

#1. Ottawa stepped up and allowed "all that want to go" attendance at this age...they build comraderie from within their little group of 40/50 kid bracket as well as the parents---no seeding---just show up & wrestle the "luck of the draw". If we were to have a District in each District and then a State -- I can just see the teeth & growling @ the Seeding Meeting & the "who entered what wt. & placing they received within their District" so the logistics can be set up for a placing @ State. Do we realistically think we'll have FULL 16 man brackets in each wt. class in 18 or 19 wt. groups? Counting on 80 kids sailing thru the State finals that weigh 80 lbs plus @ 5 & 6 years old. Previous reviews of National Tournaments have identified very FEW 5 & 6 year olds weigh 125 that wrestle! Where are the District 2 folks that propose this motion?

2. The 5 & 6 year olds have less than 2 years of Wrestling! Whats wrong with simply keeping them @ Novice level Championships & let them State Place @ 7 & 8?

3. Monetarily it doesn't make much revenue sense & during 'the economic times' most kids I'm sure that get 4th place @ District will decide that a 16 man bracket may yet be too big for them when they've been wrestling <5 man RR's thru the season & forego "State" and go play at Chuckie Cheese or get a new Wii game for the cost of travelling. And yet we think that the family will go watch 4A State Championships costing major $$$ perhaps not knowing anyone wrestling--these parents @ this age are interested in little Eddy!


These little guys & girls are just not ready for the Intensity that is relative to the need & gratification of the parents @ this age. NOVICE, they need to learn & have FUN without PRESSURE!/. Perhaps on another note if little Eddy is the Stud take him to a National competition & let him [color:#FFCC00]SHINE[color]!

--The research clarifies that 5 & 6 y.o.'s are not mature enough for "competitive sports"--yet each child matures at their own pace emotionally & physically. I can't find anything PRO without stating they hope the kid doesn't fold to "pressure" & this relates to a 6 y.o. soccer phenom.


Edited by in it to win it (10/15/10 02:49 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar/tense, text type,
_________________________
In it to win it.

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#173437 - 10/15/10 05:54 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: in it to win it]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4236
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Another Fact: We are trying to grow the sport long term.

If children are started in COMPETITVE sport before they are emotionally or physically ready they are likely to experience disappointment and stress and may give up playing altogether.


Here is a request for a link instead of a long document.

http://www.cyh.com/HealthTopics/HealthTopicDetails.aspx?p=114&np=301&id=1872


Sport for children

Contents
• Importance of sport
• Starting sport
• Mixed sex sport
• Sport safety
• What parents can do
• Resources and further reading
• References


Starting sport
The National Junior Sport Policy recommends that children should generally not play organized competitive sport until 8-10 years.
If children are started in competitive sport before they are emotionally or physically ready they are likely to experience disappointment and stress and may give up playing altogether.

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#173439 - 10/15/10 10:21 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
This battle was fought and lost several years ago. The number of card buyers in this age group increases every year. The total number of wrestlers is growing as well. More and more tournaments are adding 6U. Sean, give it up. If you don't want your 6U's to wrestle then don't take them but the fight you are picking has been over with for some time. The best thing we can do now is educate parents and coaches in hopes that they reduce the stress for this age group. I nicely ask you to refrain from introducing this lost cause to the post that is just the facts about the proposal. If you want to continue your philosophical crusade lets keep it right here, on your thread.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173444 - 10/16/10 05:00 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4236
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Will please stay in your own topic. I am sorry no one is allowed to debate you when you have an idea. I do not totally agree with you on the topic of one or two public schools for all of Western Kansas either. You want kids to car pool or bus from 3 hours one way because "numbers or low enrollemnt" in agricultural regions of Kansas - don't those kids deserve an equal opportunity for education also. Kids 5 & 6 years old have to take music first before they can be in the band. So it is all about numbers and dollars and not the development (physically, emotionally, technically, etc) of the entire age group. I believe about 20-25% (maximum - 500 kids and their parents) of that age group have participated in late season tournaments. I would have to get historic numbers - maybe you can provide that in your presentation this weekend. It is not a dead topic - it is a proposal that is going to be voted on by clubs at the state body meeting October 31, 2010 in Salina.

Sean McCarthy

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#173448 - 10/16/10 06:08 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4236
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Will,

I do not mind being called:

phil•o•soph•i•cal
rationally or sensibly calm, patient, or composed.

I am not a big name caller of others but I appreciate the compliment.




Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley
Member

Registered: September, 28 2001
Posts: 2323
Loc: DeSoto, KS This battle was fought and lost several years ago. The number of card buyers in this age group increases every year. The total number of wrestlers is growing as well. More and more tournaments are adding 6U. Sean, give it up. If you don't want your 6U's to wrestle then don't take them but the fight you are picking has been over with for some time. The best thing we can do now is educate parents and coaches in hopes that they reduce the stress for this age group. I nicely ask you to refrain from introducing this lost cause to the post that is just the facts about the proposal. If you want to continue your philosophical crusade lets keep it right here, on your thread.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173453 - 10/16/10 06:46 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin
Will please stay in your own topic. I am sorry no one is allowed to debate you when you have an idea. I do not totally agree with you on the topic of one or two public schools for all of Western Kansas either. You want kids to car pool or bus from 3 hours one way because "numbers or low enrollemnt" in agricultural regions of Kansas - don't those kids deserve an equal opportunity for education also. Kids 5 & 6 years old have to take music first before they can be in the band. So it is all about numbers and dollars and not the development (physically, emotionally, technically, etc) of the entire age group. I believe about 20-25% (maximum - 500 kids and their parents) of that age group have participated in late season tournaments. I would have to get historic numbers - maybe you can provide that in your presentation this weekend. It is not a dead topic - it is a proposal that is going to be voted on by clubs at the state body meeting October 31, 2010 in Salina.

Sean McCarthy


I openly welcome debate that is "ON TOPIC". Please debate why you should vote no to the new proposal. Why is it NOT an improvement to the situation we have today? Voting NO to this proposal is NOT going to stop 6U kids from wrestling and putting themselves into "pressure" situations. Your debate is off target.

By the way, I never said I wanted kids to bus or car pool three hours one way. I said there are prime opportunities for school consolidations that should be explored because it simply does NOT make sense to have 228 school systems educating the same number of children that 17 school systems educate. Talk about twisting my words. Are you a democrat? I hope you are not related to Bill Maher?
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173454 - 10/16/10 06:56 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4236
Loc: Shawnee Kansas

Please debate why you should vote no to the new proposal.

Does there have to be a 6 year old State Championship to provide opportunities? Please no politics or religion.

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#173458 - 10/16/10 07:24 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin

Please debate why you should vote no to the new proposal.

Does there have to be a 6 year old State Championship to provide opportunities? Please no politics or religion.


There is and will continue to be an unofficial event that is not the answer. Why wouldn't you want to improve that situation for our customers instead of playing like an ostrich?
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

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#173459 - 10/16/10 07:44 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4236
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
And the "unofficial" tournament should reduce or limit the size of brackets A,B,C,D,E,F.......... The state should not sanction the tournament if the brackets are to huge for 6&U 8&U etc.The number of matches for kids in a day should be regulated. Round Robin format gets more kids at that age more matches 3 to 5 per day. Or if the brackets are to big - single elimination, no wrestle backs, there you have it 6 & Under State Champion. The kids that go 2 and out and get a bad draw - wouldn't round robin be "better" for more opportuniities to succeed. Don't call it ABC brackets - call it blue, white, red.

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