Wrestling Talk Forums supported
USA Wrestling-Kansas KWCA Wrestling Talk Forums
supported & maintained by
USA Wrestling-Kansas
USAW USA Wrestling-Kansas 
Page 4 of 11 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 10 11 >
Topic Options
#173472 - 10/17/10 06:42 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Smokey's BBQ in Wellsville. Awesome BCS ranking - Burnt End Dinner - rank 10. I will be in Wellsville again today for the D-1 meeting. I highly recommend Smokey's BBQ. Maybe Will and I can do lunch there. There was even a few pictures of Wellsville HIGH SCHOOL wrestlers on the podium for KSHSAA High School State Tournament on the wall in Smokey's BBQ - just above the booth we sat in. As we ate this wonderful lunch - I asked one of my former HS wrestlers HS placer and college wrestler) and his Dad (now he has grand kids wrestling in Kansas) how important would it have been or will it be for Kansas to have a 6 & Under State tournament for the former wrestler, or his cousins, or grand son in wrestling. The college student/former HS wrestler said "I wish I had started later - are you really serious". The Dad/Grandpa had a comment - it was a bit philisophical - but it was along the same lines as "are you really serious" - I asked them both how they would vote if they were club directors and/or coaches. It was NO. So there we were 3 people with at least 60 combined years in the wrestling world - and 3 Not in favor. It was a great lunch.

Top
#173473 - 10/17/10 08:14 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Maybe it was because of the former wrestler's parents and coaches.

I have told you over and over that I tend to agree that maybe it is too early but we don't get to make that call. USA Wrestling allows you to buy a card when you are in that age group. EVERY single open tournament offers 6U, national tournaments offer 6U, and there is 6U unofficial state tournament that is overcrowded with brackets that have too many competitors and the tournament lasts way too long. Your stance and opinion have been duly noted, documented, explained, backed up by Phd's and experts. You now have 60 years of experience saying that we don't need 6U wrestling. We get it.

The problem is that train left the station a LONG time ago. Get in front of it and you are going to get run over. More than 2,000 kids in that age group purchased USA cards from our state last year. It is our single largest age group! So the solution is a compromise. Create a series with small tournaments for this age group only. Limit the state bracket size to 16. Start the tournaments at 9:30 and be done just after lunch.

So, if your parents all tell you that they like the idea and you vote no what does that say?

That will really be the issue. Old school club directors who want to say that they know what is better for parent's kids. Move forward because if you try to stand still you are going to get passed by. If the market demands the event we should listen and make it a positive experience. Kids at every age level are going to quit the sport. There is NO holy grail answer to that issue.

I can see that we could debate this issue until the cows come home and you are going to be stubborn and unyielding. I post something and you basically ignore what the proposal is all about and continue your crusade to attempt to make Club Directors the "We know whats best" police. Please listen to the idea and understand the merit it has and set aside your bias for this age group. The proposal is a compromise and I don't read any attempt on your part to understand the real issues and find some middle ground. You are a great guy and a passionate supporter of kids wrestling. This cannot be questioned. That being said, lets look at present day STA HS and see where the failure to adapt to the changes that are taking place all around you has gotten this program. Sean, being able to adapt and change are critical to the success of ANY business, program, team, group, cause, etc. Think outside of the box and figure out new ways and new ideas to bring greater good, listen to hard facts and be ready to accept that yesterday is gone and today is a DIFFERENT day.


Edited by Cokeley (10/17/10 09:06 AM)
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Top
#173477 - 10/17/10 08:54 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
doug747 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/02
Posts: 2629
Eventhough you already said the tourney would break even, I think we could save some money by awarding Taco Tico coupons instead of medals. Gentzler can print up coupons in varying degrees of value:

Champion-All you can eat Taco Tico, plus a roll of toilet paper
Runnerup-Half dozen combo burritos, plus a roll of toilet paper
3rd-4 sanchos, half a roll of toilet paper
4th-2 sanchos, and the other half of the 3rd place roll of toilet paper
5th-2 tacos, 6 squares of toilet paper
6th-1 taco, no toilet paper required at the restaurant, you should be able to make it home before needing any........

Top
#173480 - 10/17/10 10:49 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: doug747]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
What is the big change of heart Will. Here is one of your post from 2007. Are you planning on hosting the 6 & under district?
You mention declining card sales???

Cokeley
Member

Registered: September, 28 2001
Posts: 2332
Loc: DeSoto, KS Why do we have to stay away from 32 and 64 men brackets for six and unders? The periods are short, the kids don't exert themselves enough to be exhausted, six year olds have more energy than most parents can possibly harness, etc. Focus on the problems:

1. The season is FAR too long for six year olds.
2. There is not enough mat space now so we can't add an age group at state.
3. There aren't enough hotel rooms for the state tournament in its current status so we can't add an age group.
4. The pool of qualified officials is being tapped by the existing tournament.

Right now we should be focusing our attention on the decline in overall card sales. Why are the numbers dropping? Could it be because parents expect too much out of kids who are not ready for one-on-one competition? Who knows. I do know it is insane to think it is feasible to add six and unders to the existing format.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com
January 7, 2007

Top
#173481 - 10/17/10 10:52 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop

“I agree with Furches and McCarthy. I am not a big proponent of putting too much emphasis at too young of an age”

Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Top
#173482 - 10/17/10 10:59 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
dagwood Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/07
Posts: 265
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin
What is the big change of heart Will. Here is one of your post from 2007. Are you planning on hosting the 6 & under district?
You mention declining card sales???

Cokeley
Member

Registered: September, 28 2001
Posts: 2332
Loc: DeSoto, KS Why do we have to stay away from 32 and 64 men brackets for six and unders? The periods are short, the kids don't exert themselves enough to be exhausted, six year olds have more energy than most parents can possibly harness, etc. Focus on the problems:

1. The season is FAR too long for six year olds.
2. There is not enough mat space now so we can't add an age group at state.
3. There aren't enough hotel rooms for the state tournament in its current status so we can't add an age group.
4. The pool of qualified officials is being tapped by the existing tournament.

Right now we should be focusing our attention on the decline in overall card sales. Why are the numbers dropping? Could it be because parents expect too much out of kids who are not ready for one-on-one competition? Who knows. I do know it is insane to think it is feasible to add six and unders to the existing format.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com
January 7, 2007

Not really seeing a change of heart here. This post is about adding 6U to our current format which we would not be under this proposal. This would also end the season 2-4 weeks earlier for those 6U who currently are wrestling in the 8U division fro the qualifying series.
_________________________
Darren Newton

Top
#173504 - 10/17/10 06:36 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: dagwood]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Published on August 10, 2009 by JonnieWall in Sports
Competitive sports can be a positive tool in the development of children. However without careful guidance by the adults involved a child can suffer life long problems.

Comments (2)|33 Liked It
It is that time of once again when children are preparing for another school year. While backpacks, pencils and notebooks are being purchased, many children are also buying sports attire and equipment. Competitive sports are now as much a part of back to school as parent’s night and school shopping. Each year parents, educators and childhood specialist question if the amount of emphasis put on competitive sports is a positive or a negative for a child’s emotional, physical and mental development.

Emotional

Negative: Competitive sports put a great deal of pressure on children to win and to be the best. It reinforces the winner vs. loser idea on a daily basis. Competitive sports also quickly separates those who can from those who can’t. A child who is less athletic than his or her peers will learn the emotional implications of not being as good. A low self-esteem early on in life can have an impact on an individual into adulthood.

Positive: When a child participates in competitive sports he/she learns the value of teamwork. They learn at as early age that many obstacles in life do not have to be weathered alone. They learn to rely and depend on other for their successes. Learning at an early age to trust others allows for a higher level of trust in adulthood.

Mental
Read more in Sports
« The Steroid Question
Fitness Training: Skipping »

Negative: To often the competitive sport takes precedence over a child’s education. A talented athlete may discover that being an athlete is all the adults around him/her expect. They may find they no longer have to worry about learning or grades, as long as they perform athletically at a high level they will be successful in school. They learn to challenge themselves physically yet never mentally

Positive: Studies show that physical activity stimulates the brain. A child who gets regular physical activity is more likely to grasp and retain new ideas. When a child participates in sports their problems solving skills increase along with their ability to read and react quickly to situations.
Physical

Negative: Young bodies are still in the growing process. When a child participates in competitive sports the repetitive movement required by many sports can cause long-term injuries. Joints, ligaments and muscles are still growing well into a child’s high school years. Early overuse can cause joint and tendon problems as well as early life arthritis as well as back and neck problems.

Positive: We live in a society that struggles with obesity. Studies have shown that adults who were active as child are far less likely to suffer from obesity or other over weight issues. Competitive sports give children the opportunity to move. Children no longer know how or are not allowed to simply play. Children who are not involved with competitive sports are more likely to be sedative. Children who competitive in competitive sports learn how to use and appreciate their bodies, they learn the benefits of being fit, limber and strong.
Competitive sports can be a positive addition to a child’s early development. However, as with all things relating to children it is the responsibility of the adults overseeing the child’s physical, mental and emotional growth to insure the safety and well being of the child.


Read more: http://sportales.com/sports/the-pros-and-cons-of-competitive-sports-on-youth/#ixzz12f6QChU7

Top
#173506 - 10/17/10 06:50 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
I am trying to educate our parents, state body, coaches, myself, and others who will vote on this proposal.

Children And
Competitive Sports
Social Study
BY
Jon Patrick Orum

http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/fabe/acs...niv%20Paper.pdf

Top
#173515 - 10/18/10 06:06 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
These are the age & weights that USA Wrestling our National Governing Body used for Folk Style Nationals in the Spring of 2010 - in Cedar Falls Iowa. That is a fact - so lets stick to the facts on this topic please. I do believe the toungest competitor was 7 years old. There were no 4, 5 or 6 year olds allowed last year or any of the previous years.
And guess what 6 & unders nationwide - a portion of the card fees go to the Colorado Springs Headquarters and the Olympic Training Center.

Divisions


Bantam: (Born 2002-2003) 40, 45, 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 75+ [15 LB Maximum Difference] (7 & 8 year olds)

Championship Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00

Intermediate: (Born 2000-2001) 50, 55, 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 87, 95, 103, 112, 120, 120+ [20 LB Maximum Difference]

Championship Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00

Novice: (Born 1998-1999) 60, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90, 95, 100, 105, 112, 120, 130, 140, 140+ [25 LB Maximum Difference]

Championship Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:30, 1:30
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00

Schoolboy/girl: (Born 1996-1997) 70, 77, 84, 91, 98, 105, 112, 120, 128, 136, 144, 152, 160, 175, 190, 210, 265

Championship Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:30, 1:30
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 1:00, 1:00

Cadet (Born 1994-1995) 84, 91, 98, 105, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285

Championship Bracket Periods 2:00, 2:00, 2:00
Consolation Bracket Periods 1:00, 2:00, 2:00

Junior (Born September 1, 1990 & after, plus enrolled in Grades 9-12) 98, 105, 112, 119, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 152, 160, 171, 189, 215, 285

Top
#173550 - 10/18/10 02:03 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
This is old card membership fee distribution from 2007/08
Not exactly $75,000 goes to our state organization it looks like about 1/3 (33.3%) of our fees stays in state.

$30 membership fee for the 07/08 year was allocated would be as follows:
• $20.00 - USA Wrestling
• $ 2.50 - Kansas Kids' Division
• $ 3.65 - Kansas Junior/Cadet Divisions
• $ 1.40 - Kansas Women's Division
• $ 1.00 - Kansas Officials' Division
• $ 1.45 - Kansas State Office



• $20.00 - USA Wrestling
• $ 2.50 - Kansas Kids' Division
• $ 3.65 - Kansas Junior/Cadet Divisions
• $ 1.40 - Kansas Women's Division
• $ 1.00 - Kansas Officials' Division
• $ 1.45 - Kansas State Office
These are rough averages, since there are other items of revenue and expenses that go through our organization, but it should give a general picture of where the money is going.

The annual financial report is available on this website (www.usawks.com/financials08.pdf). A general summary of how the $30 membership fee for the 07/08 year was allocated would be as follows:
• $20.00 - USA Wrestling
• $ 2.50 - Kansas Kids' Division
• $ 3.65 - Kansas Junior/Cadet Divisions
• $ 1.40 - Kansas Women's Division
• $ 1.00 - Kansas Officials' Division
• $ 1.45 - Kansas State Office
The fact that everyone needs to understand is that a USA Wrestling Card is only $20 for a coach and $21 for a competitor. The additional $15 and $14 go to USA Kansas wrestling. In effect, you are paying for a USA card and a Kansas card but it is delivered as one. Given this, we will pay,

Top
#173553 - 10/18/10 02:33 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Who will pay for what? $14 is $28,000. The tournament budget will be under $5,000. You are grasping at straws Smoke. I told you that if the STATE tournent loses money I would pay for it. Enough said. The districts will be up to the tournament managers. If managed properly they will be profitable.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Top
#173570 - 10/18/10 08:24 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Flip Flop Flip Flop Flip Flop

“I agree with Furches and McCarthy. I am not a big proponent of putting too much emphasis at too young of an age”

Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Top
#173572 - 10/18/10 09:51 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Over time, more and more 6U wrestlers have joined our sport. I am merely adapting to change. Without change there can be no improvement. If you think "It ain't broken, then don't fix it" then you are standing still and getting passed by. I do agree, still, that too much emphasis can be placed on WINNING. If you make it about fun and the experience then it will be a positive experience.


Edited by Cokeley (10/19/10 06:30 AM)
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Top
#173574 - 10/19/10 06:10 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Don't get all philosophical on me know. Why are we proposing a stand alone 6 & under tournament? Or why 6, 8, & 10 together. Won't we (the statebody) have the same problems/questions - but only by a larger group - "How come our kids can not wrestle a entire month longer with the 12, 14, 16 & up? That will be considered not equal opportunities. Maybe each age group should have a stand alone tournament. We could call them 6A, 8A, 10A, 12A 14A and 15A&over. Or Should it be 4A, 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, 9A, 10A, 11A, 12A, 13A, 14A, 15A, etc. I still want historical numbers on Kansas Kids age groups and I am waiting. I would like to also know overall state numbers and participants by age group for every USA Wrestling state and which states offer a six and under stand alone state tournament. I prefer to be called Sean or Smokeycabin not BIG A.

Sean McCarthy


Edited by smokeycabin (10/19/10 06:44 AM)

Top
#173575 - 10/19/10 06:36 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Cokeley Offline
Member

Registered: 09/28/01
Posts: 3837
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Originally Posted By: smokeycabin
Don't get all phylisphical on me know. Why are we proposing a stand alone 6 & under tournament? Or why 6, 8, & 10 together. Won't we (the statebody) have the same problems/questions - but only by a larger group - "How come our kids can not wrestle a entire month longer with the 12, 14, 16 & up? That will be considered not equal opportunities. Maybe each age group should have a stand alone tournament. We could call them 6A, 8A, 10A, 12A 14A and 15A&over. Or Should it be 4A, 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, 9A, 10A, 11A, 12A, 13A, 14A, 15A, etc. I still want historical numbers on Kansas Kids age groups and I am waiting. I would like to also know overall state numbers and participants by age group for every USA Wrestling state and which states offer a six and under stand alone state tournament. I prefer to be called Sean or Smokeycabin not BIG A.
Sean McCarthy


If YOU (Smokey Sean) want to know these numbers no one is stopping you from calling Colorado Springs or every State. I gave you examples of states who host a 6U State tournament. I have given you so much information and there is a proposal that in many ways improves our current situation. You will NEVER change your mind. Your post regarding how you operate your club (STA) spelled it all out. It is the Smokey Way or the highway. This is my last counter to your attacks. Our club is voting yes. The proposal is NOT perfect but the pros outweigh the cons. It is a start and a foundation that can be built on. Good luck finding the information you want. I do not nor have I ever had what you are looking for.
_________________________
Will Cokeley
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Top
#173602 - 10/19/10 08:27 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Cokeley]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
Will Cokeley
State Freestyle/Greco Director(SFGD)
1225C E. 23rd St.
Lawrence KS 66046


(708) 267-6615 [cell]
Willcokeley@gmail.com

Mr. SFGD you are one of our top dogs in the state organization now. Along with your title - comes responsibilties. And if I - "Big A" or whatever you want to call me - Who happens to be a club coach in Kansas (most likely longer than you) has a question about a proposal that you wrote I would think you would be a little more diplomatic in your responses - Mr. State Freestyle/Greco Director. Thank you for your time and consideration on this matter.

Respectively Yours,

Sean McCarthy


Edited by smokeycabin (10/19/10 08:56 PM)

Top
#173609 - 10/19/10 11:21 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
creach boys Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 44
Loc: qttawa, ks.
Will, why do you want to eliminate the 6 and unders from competeing with the 8 and under kids? There have been several who can compete(Kale Pappan). If you want to say that it is because they all pay the same amount of money THEN TREAT THEM ALL EQUAL!!!!! Make them part of the REAL STATE TOURNEY or leave it alone!!!!

Top
#173611 - 10/20/10 05:18 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: creach boys]
smokeycabin Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 4298
Loc: Shawnee Kansas
"Good luck finding the information you want. I do not nor have I ever had what you are looking for. "
_________________________
Will Cokeley (SFGD)
(708)267-6615
willcokeley@gmail.com

Mr. SFGD,

I can not believe that you do not have access to the numbers that I am looking for - you are a numbers guy. You want positive change for the sport - you have made some good and bad suggestions for Kansas wrestling. I am aways looking to improve Kansas wrestling as well. I would like some answers to your current proposal and had a small data request about it - I just want some transparency. Someone has to keep an eye on the fox when the farmer is not harvesting the eggs from the chicken house.

Sean McCarthy
STA Wrestling



Edited by smokeycabin (10/20/10 11:00 AM)

Top
#173613 - 10/20/10 06:42 AM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: smokeycabin]
Beeson Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 2200
Loc: Arkansas City
I don't understand why there is a decision to make. This will shorten the 6U season for the majority of the kids. With the majority not wrestling the remaining 6U season will automaically be shortened. I wish the season would have been this short when Jake was in 6U. He was ready to be done in Feb. but we kept him in it mid-March just to finish with "State". Preach all you want about being the parent and knowing when to stop, but it is not always that easy. This helps the decision process by taking it away.

The reason so many 6U drop off is because you have to buy a USA card to practice. Alot of these kids buy a card, practice a few weeks or a few months and decide that this sport is not for them. This is a rough sport and it is not for everyone. I don't think they drop out at 8U because they were pushed as 6U. They drop out because it is a Tough Sport, and the majority of kids are not tough.

This is good for the sport, I will be voting for it.
_________________________
Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary

Top
#173643 - 10/20/10 07:52 PM Re: Just SAY NO to 6 & Under State Championship [Re: Beeson]
Spexy Offline
Member

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 235
O.k. agree with Chad on the majority issue. But what about those who are?? Why not let them have their moment?? Look at the numbers even if 1/2 drop off you still have plenty wanting their shot!!! My son made it at 6u in the 8u division got butt kicked but loved being part of the, "BIG BOY CLUB". That's what brings them back for years to come,,,a SHOT at being in Topeka!! Just some food for thought.
_________________________
Eric Spexarth

Top
Page 4 of 11 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 10 11 >


Who's Online
2 registered (notyourday, ccasteel), 12 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Midwest Tour, BREVES71, Halstead, MichaelR, East Kansas WC
11368 Registered Users
Forum Stats
11368 Members
10 Forums
28766 Topics
224634 Posts

Max Online: 709 @ 11/21/11 01:51 AM
Top Posters
Chief Renegade 8905
RichardDSalyer 8425
usawks1 7225
Aaron Sweazy 5012
smokeycabin 4298