We were Debating the restriction rules when it comes to Athletes participating in top level tournaments when engaged in High school, Junior High Sports. And in doing so we were screwing up a good post.

I think the rule encourages mediocrity. If you have a top level wrestler who would like the option of broadening his horizons and seeing how he measures up against national competition they should have that choice. After all they put the workouts. How can we Forbid them.

K.S.H.S.A.A. is simply out of touch with Wrestling. While Sports such as Baseball, Football, Basketball all have traveling/regional teams as well as active A.A.U. teams that depend on the "team aspect" these schedules are outside of the regular H.S. season. Whereas, wrestling occurs within the season and IS a detriment to developing & recognizing the higher level athlete as the folkstyle tournaments are within the season (regional, state & national).

It would be interesting to know how many states allow wrestlers to participate in "other" tournaments within the season. I DO NOT believe home-schooling is the deviant answer. If greater than 66% allow participation KSHSAA needs to re-examine for the sport of Wrestling. Yet hopefully the wrestler has a proper sense of allegiance to the HS team.

Jordan & Chertow are both identifying a need for HS wrestlers to improve their skills during winter break....which I'm sure can certainly be helpful. JMHO.

While individual accomplishment is great, the teams that I have the closest contact with, are ALL about the team first and foremost. I know some people have a tough time understanding such thinking, but it is how it has been handed down from generation to generation. The team takes priority over individual accomplishments.

Wrestling is first and formost a individual competetion. Maybe I have had a different expiereince in wrestling than you but what i always loved is I got out what I put in and it is this I've handed down. Teams are great and important but once out thier its just you.

What I here is that if the team can't go you can't go. Not everyone on every team should go. But they should have the option. Not everyone can compete at this level. Its a hard truth but truth non the less.

We have no right to tell anyone they can't do these things. Let alone forbid it. Last time I looked colleges didn't recruit teams just indiviuals. And these Big Venues are one of the things they look at. Not how many time you've beaten the same kids in one season.

Ok, sportsfan02 I can agree that maybe football, basketball, soccer, baseball etc. are all about the team. You win as a team you lose as a team and all that jazz since you depend on others to work with you during play. But when it comes to martial arts and wrestling it's about the athlete. You can't tag Bubba to come in a take over for ya. It's "Mano E Mano",nobody on the team casting spells or sticking pins in a voodoo doll to help you win.

Now it's nice to have team support and teammates to work out with assuming you got enough teammates to work out with, but even the kids don't fool themselves, they know who's got it and who don't. Still they get to be a part of something that's organized and community supported. It's always good to be included in something bigger than yourself. Strong teams survive on their ability & resilience not their presence.

If you only had one wrestler qualify for HS State would you keep him home because the rest of the team didn't make it? I don't think so. Would the whole team be there to support him? I don't think so. So where is the team now? They are at track practice, golf practice, swimming, baseball, goofing off etc.. How do I know, cause I've been there. The only kid on the team to go to state and not one of my 20+ teammates were there to support me.

So this issue really does stink for those kids who are missing out on an opportunity to further their career or their college resume. Guess it's not a mystery why KS HS wrestlers are potentially overlooked by colleges. Nobody knows who the heck they are because they rarely get any exposure on the national level.

As I said, it is difficult if not impossible for some to understand! I have one question though for those that think wrestling is strictly an individual sport. Why, if it is an individual sport, do they keep team scores?

Because they are representing a school. As you have said, it is difficult if not impossible for some to understand........sooooooooooooooo let me ask you this, why do they keep individual win/loss records?

Everyone posting is 100% right. Wrestling is both a team and an individual sport.

While the gist of your point is true, the only persons keeping track of win/loss records other than for seeding purposes each year, is the KWCA, I believe. To my knowledge KSHSAA doesn't recognize individual records.

Sportsfan, and is has been said that the KSHAA is not in touch with reality when It comes to wrestling. Wrestling is an individual sport, and a team sport. However, No one can help but yourself once on the mat. It is obvious you are not a wrestling fan, or at least an intelligent one. Go back to your team sports where you can blame others for your shortcomings.

Lyle Geyer 303 717 5321 or lylegeyer@yahoo.com

Sportsfan02, as we can all see maybe we're missing the big piture and the reasoning for this ruling?

Can anyone give a reasonable explaination on the benefits of this rule. From where I stand I see the team aspect of it all, and I get it. But what would it hurt to change this and give kids the option? I don't see the possible backlashes or downfalls simple pro's and con's. How does it hurt the team? We all can see how it could help an individual. I fail to see how it would hurt anything.

On a side note I can't fing the rule and how it accually reads does anyone have it handy?

Rule 22 —OUTSIDE COMPETITION
Violation of this rule shall make a student ineligible for the remainder of that sport or scholars’ bowl or debate season, unless he or she is reinstated by the Executive Board.
Section 1: General Regulations (apply to grades 7-12)
Art. 1: A student who is a member of a school athletic, scholars’ bowl or debate squad effective Tuesday following Labor Day through Friday preceding Memorial Day may not participate as a member of an outside team or as an independent competitor in the same sport, scholars’ bowl or debate activity. (Exception: See Rule 4, United States Olympic Committee-Sponsored National Trials and Competitions.)
NOTE: Informal participation on the part of the student athlete, such as that experienced on the black top (concrete), in the park, local “Y”, etc., is not considered a violation of this rule, provided it was not formally called or organized, no coaching takes place,
where no official score is kept, time kept, officials used, etc. Intra non-school youth group athletic participation is not considered
a violation of this rule. Inter non-school youth group athletic participation is a violation.
Art. 2: A student shall not be prohibited from competing on a special team within his or her own school such as an FFA team, etc. All
members of such teams must be bona fide students, however, and eligible under the rules of the Association.
Art. 3: A student becomes a member of a school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team when he or she first participates
in a practice session. A student ceases to be a squad member after his or her last contest for the school’s athletic squad, scholars’ bowl or debate team or when the membership on a squad is terminated. (See Rule 14-1-1, Bona Fide Student; and Rule 30-2-2, Seasons of Activities.) FROM: WEB: www.kshsaa.org

Quite lengthy, but Rule 22 "is what it is". I truly believe this is an important change that is needed for the sport of Wrestling -- but note Sportsfan I did state that there needs to be allegiance to the athlete's team. Unfortunately & Woefully, all members of the Wrestling team are not at State although those that qualify compete individually & in the name of their HS team.

Just because it's been said doesn't make it true!

I can give several reasons but none that will satisfy the anti-KSHSAA crowd. First on my personal list is, as a selfish fan I don't want your kid or others out there giving their all at some national tournament to the detriment of their/my team. I don't want to see a kid injured participating in a tournament which most likely doesn't comply with NHSF rules.

The problem is, when you change any one rule with KSHSAA it often effects a number of sports. If you for instance increase the participation points for wrestling then the ******ball people are wanting more games etc.,etc. It's a vicious circle without end.

Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Hossus
Certainly doesn't appear to favor the athlete in any way.

It doesn't. It favors the student instead!


So you don't learn anything when you are outside of the classroom?

When you get out of school you never have to travel outside of your daily work environment to complete your job requirements?

How does it favor the student? Are teachers better for our kids than coaches?

The rule is communistic and I am appalled by anyone that calls themself an American and thinks that it is a good thing. Land of the free??? How about Land of more rules and regulations every year. By the way, that equals less freedom in case you didn't learn that while you were in class instead of traveling.

How does not letting our wrestlers go to open tournaments on weekends favor the student? HOW???

My oldest boy has been going to the tulsa kick off since he was 6. He wanted to go this year but because of the rules he could not. How is this good for ks wrestling?? The explanation by sport0 is lame at best. This is a control issue!! Many wrestlers dont wrestle middle school because of this rule. This is how this rule is bad for ks wrestling. Many kids wrestling clubs dont let a wrestler practice any where but in thier room. If they do let them practice elsewhere they look down on the wrestler & parents for practicing outside the club. This is a control & ego issue. I do agree with sport0 on one thing-- I will never understand.

So your concern is that whaen this individual is absent from the team, that the team is going to fail or lose? And the individuals personal health.

If any wrestling programs overall success hindges on the presence of any one wrestler. Your program needs to make some advancements toward growing its core program. Remember there is no I in team. So I would like for my son to have the choice to wrestle somewhere else if he wants. Not every week or all the time but the choice would be nice. As for the health our kids are twice as likely to get hurt wrestling a 1st year kid with no idea what hes doing than a 3x state champ else where.

Now please any clerification on the reasoning of this rule from anyone?

And I am not anti anything or negitive about this rule. If anyone person can give me a reasonable explaination of its benefits. I would just like to know how it can to be. Cause what I'm getting so far is that if a wrestler is gone and misses a dual or tournament his team could lose. And that cannot possibly be it.

The loophole here is to just join the HS team right before the state series. If you've been wrestling National Tournaments you shouldn't have any problems thumping the guy on the A team. That way you get the best of both worlds. You also get to mess up the state seedings as well for giggles. Plenty of different kids clubs to practice with until state series.

The other loophole is for National Tournaments to start getting an endorsement, sponsoring or sanctioning from Oly Committee. At least that is the way I read that. You'd think that the Oly committee would be on board with it.

What I am trying to say is there is always a way around things. Depends on how much people want to work together or not.

I'm not looking for a loop hole at all. I want my kid to get the best chances that he can at being recognized by the best schools that he can. And so should his coach and team and state commities.. Now if his dream is still to go to Iowa and that he is truely talanted enough for that to be an option. He is alot more likely to get the word out about himself at a national large venue. Than the JOCO whatever tournament. And what if you athlete is at a school with an sub-par wrestling program. Your team won't even be given the option or be invited to some of the toughier tournaments. Now in these situations tell me that we are bettering Kansas Wrestling holding these individuals back and limiting thier options.

I said that was MY #1 reason, I didn't say that was THE #1 reason for the rule.