We've been there and done that and changed to the current cut-off date!

You can not make rules to make kids or parents seek excellance. It would be great, in fact perferred if all high school state placers chose to wrestle in the high school division. It would be great if we could legislate that people have to become the best that they can. Such things can not be legislated. When making rules you must make them based on things that are concrete (age, weight, ect...). Again you can not tell a wrestler that is successful he is to be held to a higher standard because of their success. What happens to the wrestler that loses in overtime and is eliminated one match short of placing in high school state? He can wrestle 14U but the kid that beat him in OT cannot? All this rule change would do is help those that red shirt. They would get an extra year in 14U most kids would not. Just food for thought.

I guess my question for Cheif and Will would be this. Are you trying to protect the 8th graders or push the 9th graders? Either way it is not your responsibility to do so. The 9th graders must push themselves, you can't do that for them. The 8th graders don't need protection, they have wrestled kids a year older than them every other year their whole career, and next year will wrestle kids that may be up to 4 years older than them. You are not protecting them, you are weakening them.

How many of those high school kids wrestling 14 would still be wrestling if they had wrestle in the high school division? How much money would be lost if the Chang was made? My guess is thats why you can't get them to see it your way. Just a guess though

Will,

Your right there is no debate. It was voted on and your position did not pass!


What are you arguing for? In one post you want the HS Elite to take a break in another you say they aren't getting better by wrestling 14 and Under. How would they get better by taking a break. Did every kid that was successful in the past follow your plan?

Those that want to wrestle HS can, those that want to get better can, those that do not want to getter better can chose not to! Remember this is a free country!

I am against anyone being punished for their success! I am all for change to make the sport better. I do not feel that making rules that limit what one can and cannot due based on their success or failure make anyone better!

Last but not least I have the choice to not agree with you!

Zach Campbell

Wow, gonna have fun next year pulling wings off of Butterflies. Because triple crown and team points are apparently of more value than personal growth for wrestlers. Heck, I thought taking my kid to National Tournaments was a way to expose him to quality competitors. Coulda saved a ton of money and stayed home tussled with local yokels to win that coveted State Championships and called it good. Cause ya know, winning that state championship is everything. Guess I need to change my way of figuring. After seeing the HS kids clamoring to wrestle in 14U this year who am I to say it's wrong. We beat a few HS kids in last few years as a 7th & 8th grader, why not milk it for all it's worth while we are a Freshman next year. Yee haw welcome to KS

I don't think there isn't a kids on the mat that doesn't (or shouldn't) have winning a state title as a goal. Are saying that a kids state title doesn't matter?

There may be a few kids that are 14U freshman state placers that the 14U may be the only legit shot at state title ever. To say that he doesn't need it to make Kansas wrestling better is a shame. We all know that there are kids that never have that chance, and if they think this is their year even in 14U then have at it. It is within the stated rules. How many kids get 4th, 5th and 6th consecutive years? I get that is higher than 4 timers. So that 14U may be the only year to get the title. Wrestling is a individual sport.

I think Will and Chief are missing that some of these kids have busted their buts to be where they are and if they have to wretle 14U to get a state title so be it, I still bet it won't be handed to them. It will also be developing the 8th graders in that group also.

I have a 8th grader and I am sure the freshmen in his bracket will help him improve over the next few weeks, how is that different than the upperclassmen helping the freshmen that have been getting the same "developement" all year.

Bottom line if they go up they are beign developed, if they go 14U they are developing the one below. Same thing right?

Will
I don't think you got my point. I wasn't talking about 8th grade cadets wrestling up. I was talking about 9th grade cadets having the option to wrestle cadet or juniors. Exactly the same choice that our 14u 9th graders have. So given your reasoning for mandating hs state placers only wrestle hs division is the same as mandating that 9th grade cadets that all americaned the year before should have to wrestle juniors. You would flip a cookie and have a stroke if USAWKS implemented that rule.

Actually I was the one who said elite high school kids should take some time off. Yes, time off can help you get better as a wrestler. I followed my dads plan and turned out alright I think.

Not sure how 15 second pins develops anybody? Nope, I am just agreeing with everyone but pointing out the obvious hick mentality. Should State Championships be a goal, sure why not? It's just another wrestling meet with a few more wrestlers than the little meets we have. Generally all the same kids that they wrestle week in and week out with a few kids from out West mixed in to give it some pizzazz. In terms if difficulty not so much. There are upsets of course nobody wrestles their potential all the time and some rise to the occasion. It's the best we have to offer but it's weak at best. Best quote I have heard so far about this years state meet was from my own son when I told him he had a few HS kids wrestling down. "Cool, I was beginning to think state was going to be lame."

In 2011 at kids state my son was an 8th grader in14U. He placed 2nd in a bracket full of highschoolers including one HS state placer that i know of. It was a great experiance for him and gave him a little taste of what was coming the next year. I dont really believe these 8th graders need to be protected from kids only one year older than themselves. If anything i would think they would look up to the challenge of wrestling and maybe even being able to say they beat a highschooler.

That will happen with 8th grade to 8th grader and hs to hs kids.

We are used to wrestling these same kids ever other year, this year will be no different for us.

Hossus,

You call team championships, etc "hick" mentality...not sure what that means. In my post I was only trying to point out that there additional considerations other than just individually focused goals or agendas that impact a decision like this.

I still see this just the same as kids having the choice to wrestle Cadets or Juniors. We do not limit Cadets that are in high school and force them to have to wrestle Junior age group if they have placed at high school state or are a Fargo All American....why should we do it at the state level?

If anyone that supports the idea of making 14U hs state placers have to wrestle in the HS division gets on here and is willing to say they think it should change at the National level with Cadets and Juniors too then I will start to consider changing my opinion and vote. I don't think I will hear that idea supported by those folks.

Shawn Budke

Big difference. Both are in High School!

Chief,

That is not a true statement! We have a whole bunch of stud 8th graders this year that are going to be Cadets. When they go to Fargo or Regionals or Freestyle/Greco State they will compete against High School kids that still meet the age requirements to be a Cadet. If a freshman in high school meets the age requirments to be a Cadet, they have a choice. They can compete as a Cadet or as a Junior.

Given the logic you supported in earlier posts, you should support a national rule that only allows Cadets to be non-high schoolers that meet the age requirement to be a Cadet. Based on what you have stated, it would be really unfair to make the 8th grade Cadets have to wrestle these kids because they have had a year of high school practice and mat time. Just think how much more experienced the high school cadet is having wrestled at Fargo and potentially All Americaned at Fargo?

My point is that these seem very similar, if not exactly similar to me. Given that, I don't see the folks that support changing our state rule clamoring or making noise to change it at the national level.

Heck, I would even argue that if we change the rule to the way you and Will want, we are doing our first year Cadets (8th graders) a huge disservice by not letting them wrestle the really good high school state placing freshman. Thus, not helping prepare them for what they are going to see during the Freestyle/Greco season at state, regionals, and Fargo.

Shawn

"Going to be Cadets". Cadet Duals are in June. Fargo is in July. Are they not finished with their 8th grade competition?

Might be small minded, but I think winning Team Championships in Kids divisions outside of traveling All-Star teams is kinda whack. I would argue that it is lopsided for those larger teams. Small teams in little towns never have a fair chance against big towns and big clubs. Then there are a few clubs across the state who recruit kids from other clubs to try and achieve this goal. So really what is fair or honorable about any of that. Were talking about the have's and the have nots basically.

Outside of HS and kids traveling teams, your kids teams are really about individual accomplishments. Not saying being a part of kids team is a bad thing at all, lots of good reasons for being on a good team. Just the whole idea of winning something that is based more on your geography and population and not on performance is not my idea of a lofty goal. Why do you think we have 4 different HS classifications for wrestling. Geography/population...

Also with FS/GR you basically have a small gene pool of crazy people who think wrestling season should be 9 months long and will drive across the country to find that one dude in their weight class who feels the same way. It's good stuff, but not many people do it. So kinda back to the have and the have nots on that. I like the All-Star travelling team thing as it helps make it affordable, but locally it is kinda expensive for most people. Due to the low numbers you get accustomed to the idea of having to wrestle like your in HS as the competition can be pretty scarce. Also since we end Folkstyle so late, everyone else in the country is about done with the season once we get fired up. It's not fair mind you, it just is what it is.

I am more interested in how KS kids perform outside the rectangle of KS rather than inside. I hate the thought of kids getting caught up and coached into the idea that if they win state in KS then your at the pinnacle of your sport. If find it odd that out of the thousands of kids who sign up and wrestle in this state that only a 100 or maybe less actually leave the borders to go on their own to do bigger things. Money can't be the only reason, must be coaches telling parents it's not a good thing is my only experience with that. Even more appalling to me is that some clubs do not allow their wrestlers to go anywhere else accept where the club is going that week. Crazy power trip weird if you ask me. If we had done that my kid would have gotten 8 matches a year and likely against the same two other kids, where is the benefit in that??

I look at it this way. We are Kansans and I support that way above any club. I am more concerned about our kids getting recognized by other states rather than by other local clubs. I want college recruiters to look long and hard at KS kids as being hard working, dedicated and outstanding athletes. I feel we get overlooked because we internalize the importance of being winners at home rather than without.

Chief we have 8th graders right now that are cadets. Any kid born in 1998 is a cadet. That means as of Jan 1,2013 those kids are cadets not "going to be cadets". Also, whehter you agree with rule or not, using your thought process, just because they finished 8th grade 2 weeks before cadet duals and a month before Fargo doesn't give the experience that the kids who have wrestled 5 days a week in a high school program. That was one of the arguments made as to why HS state placers should have to wrestle in the hs division. You are splitting hairs here trying to justify your position. The concept is the same for both situations.

So the Cadets on the topside should wrestle as JR's at those to meet if they are from Kansas.

Same thing right?

Hossus,

I don't necessarily disagree with you however, as long as the USAWKS offers team placings and team trophies we have to take that into account when making decisions that can impact a team's chance of winning that. You can disagree with the idea all you want but from an organizational change perspective we have to look at all the factors and weigh the pros and cons. I originally just threw that out there because it is a factor that nobody had mentioned.

As far as the point about clubs only allowing kids to wrestle where the club is going....you bring a valid perspective. I would offer some other ideas as to why a club may have that rule...If a club has 100 wrestlers and a limited amount of coaches then the club as an organization has to determine how to divide its resources (ie the coaching staff). Some clubs make that rule because of that, not because they are on a power trip. Other clubs make that rule to promote a concept of team unity. A lot of folks don't agree with that idea and see kids wrestling as an individual sport...others disagree. Not a power trip, just a different perspective and apportach. Along with that I have seen clubs that have that rule but they tell the wrestlers and parents that if they want to go to a different tournament then they can....just don't expect to have club coaches there to coach them. A lot of times it then becomes the parents who get upset because the club won't send 1 coach to coach 1 kid at a separate tournament.

Who's right, who's wrong....neither. They are just different organizational approaches to coaching a team.