I was talking with a High School Coach last night and we think that Basketball may finally have one up on the wrestlers. In the NCAA Basketball tournament there is no 3rd place, no challenge for 2nd, and no double elimination. The only thing that matters is "The Championship".

All of those players are not winners. All of those players don't get a trophy. They don't care if you were on the tough side of the bracket. Win or GO HOME. A True life lesson.

That is not even true for the NCAA basketball tournament. Small schools get lots of attention and are rewarded for getting a 1st round win. The rest celebrate at every turn--Sweet 16, Elite 8, Final 4 and championship.

There is a huge difference between millennials who are trophy children getting awards for showing up and a wrestler placing 6th at State.

It is hard to keep interest in our sport at a high level. It is difficult to convince kids to go out and dedicate what it takes to make it through a season. The mentality that the only thing that matters is the championship is the same mentality that only focuses attention on kids who are currently at a level to compete for a top placing.

We coach our entire room and try and get them to the best performance they can muster, with no excuses. You can keep your true life lessons if all that is about is a championship or go home.

They used to play for third but the TV ratings STUNK it up so they dropped it in the 80's I believe. NCAA hoops is ALL about $$$$$$. Don't kid yourself.

I totally HATE true 2nd. That is another post. It should only be about the champion and if you are giving out something special give it to the top 3. None of them lost twice.

They celebrate the winning because if you lose you go home. And in the end, only one team is the winner.

I have no problem with 3rd place in wrestling. Double elimination and they didn't get eliminated. I'm ok with 4th, he was the last one to get beat out. We need to get rid of 5th and 6th, especially when there are only 16 kids in a bracket, and technically these kids have been beat out. 24 State Placers is just way too many.

Well, they don't have it right because they are a team sport and as such, they don't have the individual accomplishments that wrestling has. The most stirring accomplishments I have seen in this sport happened at times on the back sides of brackets. I watched Roberson win five in the back to take third in the NCAA's. I saw a Nebraska kid do the same thing one year. Those are simply incredible accomplishments. I know that placing in the top eight in the NCAA's are immense accomplishments and on a smaller scale but to those kids the same, the state tourney is very much the memory of some of their athletic lives.

At Basehor we wrestle for seventh and eight and those are often matches between state placers and at times include some state champions. To get on the podium at that meet is a battle well fought. I don't think wrestling has much to learn from basketball. There is challenge in those matches. Like some of the rest of you I don't think much of the true second challenge but I don't dislike it enough to really care. I think placing six at state was one of the best things that the state did in my time in coaching. Many times it stimulated young wrestlers and gave them the motivation to move up on the ladder the next year. We are in the business of building memories for these kids and there is nothing wrong with that reward of accomplishment in my view.

Is this because we have too many state placers to begin with, 24 seems excessive to me.

I'm not sure what the harm is in that. We are losing competitors in wrestling each year. The more we focus on the elite level kids only the more we continue to lose those competitors. Lots of kids that take 6th as a sophomore end up winning it as a senior. A lot of seniors that finally, after years of struggle, crawl on that podium in sixth place will remember that day for the rest of their lives. It's not all about the top of the podium, it's about the kids. I was one of the coaches that championed that cause years ago and it was a great thing for the kids. By the way we (at Basehor) had a four time Oklahoma State Champion in one of those matches a few years ago and last year as well. I doubt that you could convince them that they were simply there because there were too many state placers. We had a three timer that took sixth four years ago and he got beat by a kid that is now a two time DII All American. We (at Basehor) think those matches are very worthwhile.

Ataboy Westfahl, it isn't all about the elite.

I just see it differently. If you lose two you go home, you shouldn't get ANOTHER chance just to make you feel good. Being a state placer is not that big of a deal if 24 others are also. I love it when we hear about 4x State placers and then find out they took 6th, 5th, 3rd, and 1st. That is not a 4x State Placer, that is a 2x placer 1x Champion. He got beat out his Freshman and Sophmore year. Why can't it be ok to have to work for an accomplishment instead of being given everything. Everyone can't be a State Champion, everyone can't be a 4x placer, that is what makes it special. If we start making it easier to be a 4x State Placer, it loses it's luster. Big Deal.

Things change, they don't stay the same. If it did, Wayne and I would still be sitting in the chairs at the state tourney telling jokes to each other while you guys wrestled. God I have seen kids fight so hard to take fifth at state that it darn near brought tears to my eyes. You came from a place and time that gave you some distinct advantages and you guys were great. I am both a former antagonist and admirer of what happened down there in those years but I think it keeps you from appreciating how hard those kids worked that weren't from the Ark Cities of the world and how much it took for them to break on to that podium. Thats what we are all about as coaches (or were in my case) and if it motivates more kids to keep doing what we all love so much, then how can it be a bad thing? It doesn't diminish the kids at the top of the podium, it just makes them take a few more steps up to stand there. They can handle the difference I think.

Kansas has it wrong. For a Red state our HS sports are so socialistic and Democrat. EIGHT state champs in football!!

Eight Football Champions. That is 2 per District if you divide the state into fourths. Ridiculous.

Thats 8 per district if you divided it by one. So what?

So What? Just by asking the question shows you are asking the wrong questions and I would guess you were never a champion. Champions know the difference. Some of those who were not champions, just decide to try and make it easier. Even if that means diminishing the role of "Champion". There is only one champion. Bottom line. Definition of Champion-1)n: a person who has defeated all others in a competition.2)n: One that is clearly superior or has the attributes of a winner.

State Champion would be the one that has defeated all other competitors in the state. By definition you can not have 8 State Champions. Also by definition, you can not have a 4th, 5th, or 6th place in a double elimination tournament.

Here are a couple of thoughts while I have been watching this dialogue...

1. Chad, be careful with your wording, for the most part I agree with your point but based on this statement..." State Champion would be the one that has defeated all other competitors in the state." There has never been a state champion in any sport. I do not know of any sport where the state champion has defeated all of the other competitors in the state. This is impossible and infeasible.

2. Basketball does have it right....why??? It depends on your overall objective for wrestling. If your goal is to grow the sport, try to get it to where it is marketable enough so college programs can sustain themselves then we need to change dramatically. We need to focus on the dual concept rather than individual tournaments with a focus on individual accomplishments.
Here is my reasoning for this....

1. Dual scoring is much easier to follow, thus making it easier for the common, inexperienced person to become a fan. By the way....this is the target audience...not us ex-wrestlers that are going to be fans no matter what. Heck, look at all the crap we have endured with the changing of the rules in Olympic style wrestling over the years.

2. Duals are quicker and sell better for TV. I can tune in and watch my favorite team without having to sit there and track every individual. Try to determine how the team scoring works in an individual tournament, etc.

3. Heck, most of us do not know the intricacies of a zone defense in basketball, a triangle offense, etc. But I will guarantee most of us were in some kind of pool for March Madness...why? Because you want to get behind your team, support your school, pick a dark horse and support it, it is fun, etc. Notice the the theme....team aspect.

Bottomline: If we want to market this sport so we can generate enough TV and marketing revenue for college wrestling programs to sustain themselves then we need to focus on the team aspect of it.

If we aren't worried about that then we can continue to focus on individual accomplishments and we can continue to watch the D1 programs dwindle and get cut.

PS- Get ready for a new round of non-profit sports programs getting axed if the NCAA reverses course and starts spreading some of that wealth to the football and mens basketball players.

Shawn Budke

I agree /w coach Thompson. We have enough trouble tring to find 14 kids to wrestle, not to mention fill 14 weights.
College is college. High school is high school. NCAA March madness is the biggest TV event and lasts awhile. NCAA wrestling is over in a couple of days. Cannot compare the two.

If you want your kid touted as the best...Go to those national tournaments where not all of the best kids are anyway. Just the kids whos parents can afford to get them there. Dont ask your State Athletic Association to provide it for you.

Sounds like we have too many weights then.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. It would be alot cheaper for the state to hold one or two state tournaments(Big/Small) then it would to hold FOUR or in Footballs case EIGHT.

What is wrong with wanting to be the best? I think it is ridiculous that you are asking the State Athletic Association to Provide watered down Championships so you can feel good.

Hey let's divide into two classes. Those who want to conquer the world wrestle in college and only wrestle every day of their life bla bla bla. And those that enjoy the sport, enjoy the connections they make with their wrestlers and families. Enjoy seeing kids grow into something meaningful and productive and don't really give a hoot if three other kids are called state champions. I have seen some stud duck wrestlers fall flat on their faces later in life, and seen some kids that never placed or heaven forbid placed 5th or 6th turn into amazing men.

Chad, you arguing about what should count as placement at the high school state tournament is like Koch arguing if your income is enough to pay your bills. I think you have to have walked in these young warriors shoes before passing judgement. Just my opinion.