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Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: Vandeventer] #229661 04/10/14 02:12 PM
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Beeson Offline OP
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Your on the right track about dividing into two classes, but not how we divide them into those classes.

I agree, just because you are a stud wrestler does not mean you will do great in life. And, just because you are not a stud wrestler does not mean that you are a loser in the game of life. The other side of the coin is true also.

This every body is a winner mentality is hurting the country. Some things should have to be earned. Adding weights, placements, and now classes is just another way to make everybody a winner.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: PatrickCavanaugh] #229662 04/10/14 02:16 PM
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Beeson Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: PatrickCavanaugh
Chad, you arguing about what should count as placement at the high school state tournament is like Koch arguing if your income is enough to pay your bills. I think you have to have walked in these young warriors shoes before passing judgement. Just my opinion.


I've been in the shoes that missed placing at State by one match. Just made me work harder the next year, it sure as hell didn't make me quit.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: Beeson] #229663 04/10/14 02:30 PM
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Damn, I hate it when I mis speak. I thought you were 4x'er. That being said reducing awards in a struggling sport is not the way to increase participation. I am all for a grand state to determine who is #1 as an individual as well as a team, but don't see the harm in placing 6 at State. There are a lot more forces trying to destroy this country then kshsaa. They are just focusing on making sure Kansas is not competitive as a national powerhouse in any sport other then swimming.


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Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: PatrickCavanaugh] #229664 04/10/14 03:07 PM
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budkes Offline
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If you go to a dual team concept you could potentially go to 2 state championships. 1 for large schools and 1 for smaller schools. Using current system....combine 6A, 5A, and some of 4A for 1 and combine the rest for the second.

Have a series of qualifying tournaments and take the top 16 teams from each division to 1 site. That site would host a 2 day dual state tournament. Have it telvised or on the computer like they do the boys state basketball tournament. Top 4 teams get team awards.

If you want to have an individual tournament then the following week you have an individual state tournament.

Just some thoughts. Trying to answer your orinignal question. Problem is that you are comparing apples and oranges. 1 is a pure team sport. Wrestling is a hybrid/combination of individual and team. The team aspect is what sells to the general population.

Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: budkes] #229665 04/10/14 03:24 PM
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Beeson Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: budkes
If you go to a dual team concept you could potentially go to 2 state championships. 1 for large schools and 1 for smaller schools. Using current system....combine 6A, 5A, and some of 4A for 1 and combine the rest for the second.

Have a series of qualifying tournaments and take the top 16 teams from each division to 1 site. That site would host a 2 day dual state tournament. Have it telvised or on the computer like they do the boys state basketball tournament. Top 4 teams get team awards.

If you want to have an individual tournament then the following week you have an individual state tournament.


This is an idea I can get behind full heartedly. I wouldn't even feel bad about 6 placers if there were only two tournaments.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: Beeson] #229672 04/10/14 06:48 PM
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Placing 6 when there are only 32 schools is too much. Sending 16 out of 32 to state is crazy.

Wrestling is popular to the competitors because of the individual aspect not the team events. Dual team state is always after the individual format in nearly every state that have both. Even in the dual team format the motivation is self oriented. I have never seen ANY data presented that supports your popularity claim from viewers. The ONLY live, prime time, televised Folkstyle wrestling event is the NCAA INDIVIDUAL Championship tournament. It has to be paying off or they wouldn't have expanded coverage.


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Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: Cokeley] #229677 04/11/14 12:08 AM
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This is in response to no one in particular, it is just my personal thoughts on this topic. My overall thought is that it would penalize wrestlers that don't wrestle year 'round because they choose to do other sports like baseball and soccer that take up too much time. Wrestling all year is not feasible for many families due to time constraints, not to mention financial obligations.

I don't think anyone would argue that if you take two very young wrestlers with the same caliber athletic ability, the same mentality that the sport of wrestling takes to be really good, the same intelligence to put what they learn in practice and apply it during competition and the same desire to excel in the sport that the wrestler who goes at it year 'round would end up being the better wrestler by the time they reached high school. You shouldn't dismiss wrestlers' accomplishments of finishing in the top six at State because they didn't choose to wrestle year 'round.

Last edited by ReDPloyd; 04/11/14 12:12 AM.

Lee Girard
Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: ReDPloyd] #229678 04/11/14 12:29 AM
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I should probably define what I mean by year 'round: October/November to July instead of November to February/March. By no way am I saying I have any issues with wrestlers who work so hard for so many months and chase competition that will sharpen their skills to become the best of the best. I am just saying that not all wrestlers have the interest or means to do so and that shouldn't take away from what they achieve when they reach high school.


Lee Girard
Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: ReDPloyd] #229682 04/11/14 12:02 PM
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budkes Offline
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Will,

Of course you cannot find the data to support the dual argument because for the most part it hasn't been tried in the mass media market that we have now.

To support my argument I offer the following....

1. You and I fundamentally disagree on the idea that wrestling is an individual sport and not a team sport. I think that the individual aspect of wrestling makes it one of the most intersting team sports around.

2. Look at the growth in our state in the elementary and middle school dual teams. Remember when you started these with Ryne....you were calling kids and scrapping to get enough for 1 team. Where are we now....5 teams for both elementary and middle school..that is huge growth. So much growth in fact that we have had to create 2 separate state tournaments in order to determine who qualifies and for which team. The Middle School state is exactly what the proponents want for a High School Grand state.

3. I am not looking at this problem from an individual wrestlers perspective. I am looking at it from an average fan perspective. What causes the average student to walk in to a gym and watch a wrestling match. What gets there interested, gets them excited, what creates hype around the school. Basketball gets it because of the team concept. I don't have to understand the intricacies of the offense, defense, etc. I just have to understand 2 pt shots, 3 pt shots, and maybe the idea of fouls. Wrestling can do the same thing using a dual format. It allows folks to support their team even if they aren't really familiar with wrestling.

4. Adrenalin rush. Close duals bring about an excitement that is like no other. All I have to offer for evidence is personal experience of over 40 years and the feedback I have received from people over the years. Heck, I remember talking to Matt Treaster after the first year we did the Schoolboy duals and Middle School duals. He and I both realized how much more fun they were. Ask the kids, the love them.

5. Look at the threads on this forum. What has become one of the most popular events we do after high school that causes high school kids to not wrestle in the kids state program.....the dual team that Chief forms and takes to Colorado.

Bottomline: Wrestling at the D1 college level is not growing. Wrestling at the international level almost got voted out of the Olympics. What we are currently doing is keeping wrestling on life support at best. You are one that is always preaching change and thinking outside of the box....well here are some ideas that I think would be positive and help grow the sport. It requires a change in thinking that wrestling is predominately an individual sport.

So, you ask for evidence....until we try it for a while we will not get a good enough sample size to provide you the emperical evidence you so desire.

In the mean time all I have to offer for evidence is huge success of the products you have been instrumental in creating....elementary school duals, middle school duals, schoolboy duals, etc.

Shawn Budke

Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: budkes] #229686 04/11/14 03:16 PM
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Cokeley Offline
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All of those teams are comprised of wrestlers who earned their spots individually. The trips, gear , bonding, experience and exposure drive their popularity as much or more than the team aspect. I've never said I don't like duals or a dual team state opportunity. I'm just saying that the individual aspect of this sport is what is most attractive and popular.


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Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: Cokeley] #229698 04/13/14 02:57 PM
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budkes Offline
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Maybe the individual aspect is most appealing to some wrestlers but I will still argue that wrestling on a team in a dual is just as important. I also contend that duals are the way to market wrestling to the casual fan.....the person who is not familiar with wrestling.
Those of you out there who have kids that have wrestled on any of the dual teams or high school duals....ask them why they like the dual teams so much and which they prefer please. Post your answers here. Thanks

Shawn

Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: budkes] #229714 04/14/14 05:04 PM
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My son did every thing he could to go to MS deals.He dropped wight Wrestled up in age/wight train harder. There was three things that pushed him. In this order.
1st was the gear. He got spiderman singlet .That was the one he wanted.I heard many many kids talk about the singlets.

2nd was the experience. In the drive up/Motel/eating with the team.

3rd was fighting with the kids he was fighting aginst just weeks ago.On my sons team he had 3 kids that he wrestled all year on his team.

I do think it will be drifrant if the team was the same all the time.I think part of the fun to the kids is it being all difrant.

I also think if we could get duals going in the MS ES age every week. That would help Team KS over all.

Charles

Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: Beeson] #229791 04/17/14 08:57 PM
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Beeson

Wasn't it a few of years ago Ark City won a team state championship with no state champions. Maybe they were undeserving as a team or my memory could be faulty.

Re: Does Basketball have it right? [Re: cps51] #229802 04/18/14 02:20 AM
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Beeson Offline OP
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Under the rules they were deserving. That still doesn't make it right to place 5th and 6th.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
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