Why does the state of Kansas not follow the National Rules?

Attending the Perry Tournament of Champions this year, as the father of a participant, and not just a fan, has really opened my eyes. I continually hear coaches and parents complain about how much this kid or that kid pulls, but Kansas sidesteps National rules designed to discourage massive weight pulling. Why do we allow kids to pull large amounts of weight, weigh in first thing in the morning and then fill up and be ready for the match 10 hours later?

College wrestlers weigh in just before they wrestle. National High School Rules have the kids weigh in just before they wrestle. Why does Kansas think this is a bad idea? I'm asking for legitimate reasons why we, as a State, are not following National Guidelines?

I think they think that by allowing them to weigh in early they are helping them.

In reality they are enabling them to pull a lot of weight. Kids that have to weigh in and wrestle will only cut to where they can perform a short time later.

Guarantee that kids that are pulling alot and then have to step off the scale to on the mat will have a different thought process after they do that many times.

It would for sure drive kids to wrestle closer to their "walk around" weight.

I want to first say, I 100% agree with you Beeson. I do know the thought process as i sat in those meetings when new weight rules were implemented by KSHSAA.

Thought process by Adminstrators: We don't want kids focusing on cutting weight and no focusing on school on competition days. (I think that is flawed thinking b/c if they are cutting too much weight, they are not as focused on school anyway and it would be the entire day before at best)

Following the decent plan by the National Federation is a Crap Load of paper work on a coach. (I agree with not following the decent plan)

However, I truly believe that if we implemented:
1. 1 hour weigh in before duals
2. 2 hour weigh in before tournaments
3. 2 Hour weigh in before 2nd Day of 2 Day tournaments
4. 1 Hour Weigh in before scheduled Finals of a 2 Day tournament (Not sure about this one but it was a thought i had while typing)

We would fix a lot of things!

Home weigh ins are a joke too! Also, weighing on Friday night instead of Saturday morning on a two day event, ugh. Our schedule is mostly out of state events so we follow the National rule most of the time. Makes state weigh in seem easy...

Ok, since there doesn't seem to be anyone arguing against the National rule....Who do we need to contact to get Kansas on board?

I came from a different state where I began officiating. When I moved to Kansas I was flabbergasted that kids don't weigh in on-site. When I asked several people why they don't weigh in on-site I was told that one reason is because there is too far to travel between some towns for meets. Therefore, having to get to a site 2 hrs earlier would make for too early of mornings for some Kansas teams.

I politely called BS having come from a more sparsely populated state but I heard this excuse from more than one source at the time.

Also, where I came from officials are paid an extra $25 for arriving 2 hrs early for weigh-ins. This is standard and I don't know if it would also have an effect on KSHSAA's decision.

Just an FYI, Logan is 106 in PA this year weighing in with a cheeseburger in Hand at a massive 103. Pa follows national high school rules we weigh in 1 hour before duals 2 hours before tournaments and always have 2nd day weigh i for 2 day tournaments and I can tell you first hand that it does not eliminate any weight cutting. I have seen the biggest 106 pounders on the planet in the last 4 weeks along with 113 120 126 and so on. Once everyone gets used to it then that's just how it is and it's normal. While I do think it's a novel idea to try and stop the weight cutting the only true way to do it is for coaches to step up be honest and caring and say NO. Just my 02 cents

Good luck to everyone in ks.
Mike Pirl

Not the coaches main concern...more of a parent issue. Still you hear all the time, "if they can catch him on the first day"....What if both days were "the first day"?

Mike, you are right. Once they get used to it, but you can only get used to so much.

Still the question..."What do we have to do to get it changed in Kansas?"

Beeson, Contact Mark Lentz at the KSHSAA.
He can line out the process for you.

Or, continue in the following manner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gSQg1i_q2g

I could be wrong, but I do not think there is much momentum among the KSHSAA member schools to change the weigh-in process in Kansas to the national rule. Of course, a change is impossible or at least unlikely without a significant number of member schools in favor of the change. Again, perhaps there is more support for change among KSHSAA schools than I realize and we may see this change occur in the future.

Lentz is a puppet for Musselman.

Then call Musselman, or, continue in the following manner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gSQg1i_q2g

Wrestling from Oklahoma and then coaching in Kansas I was totally shocked at the weigh in procedures in Kansas. I understand the thought process about wanting kids to focus on school and not cutting weight. From my experience the day of any competition I was totally focused on my match that night, or day of competition and just got through the school day. ( I am sure that is probably the way most kids are the day of battle.) I think that what Church mentioned about times of weigh-in's is a good thing and also allows the coach to teach more about proper nutrition. We always weighed in at 5pm and wrestled duels at 7pm. Tournaments were 3 hours before start times. With on site weigh their leaves no doubt about kids actual weight.
I also think that KSHSAA needs to consider giving kids more than two weeks to prepare for the season opener. I know a lot of teams start out with two a days to try and compensate for the short amount of time that is given to get ready for the start of the season.
Getting a chance this year to shadow my home town from Oklahoma I have witnessed the paperwork fiasco and Church is spot on about it being overbearing.

Just my thoughts.

Kshsaa does not care about you athletes. They also do not care about your coaches and especially about this forum. They work for the Administrator of your school. Musselman is the Roger Goodell of Ks sports with a little more power then Goodell. As long as your administrator (who 95-100%) could care less about wrestling is on board this is all just talk and will continue to be. Deal with the hand given or fight the fight but I would bet 100.00 that this will not be changed before your freshman and definitely my Junior graduate. KSHSAA is a disgrace and should be ashamed of there performance.

Well, Pat. . .it is true many school administrators do not understand or appreciate wrestling; certainly does not mean all are that way; all is needed is one who agrees with you who could run with the proposal for rules change.

But there is more than one avenue to pursue a change; another is from the KWCA. . .there is at least one HS coach on this forum who agrees with you and has some pull in the KWCA; he could certainly champion your cause.

The fact of the matter is most coaches that I talk with understand there are warts with the system but prefer it over the alternative. Too, the rule changes regarding weight loss (whether the NF descent plan or the Kansas plan) are geared to eliminating pulling large amounts of weight. More kids than ever before are wrestling closer to their "walking around weight."

The argument I see on here is that morning weigh-ins encourage extreme weight loss. It can be argued that onsite weigh-ins do the same.

It's not the weigh in the encourages extreme weight loss, it's the 12 hour time between weighing in and competition.

Exactly...A 152lb wrestler can weight 162-165 on Monday morning. He pulls down to 152 for weigh ins at 6:00 am and makes weight. By the time he wrestles at 7:00 pm that night he will be weighing 162-165 lbs. His body has had time to take in the nutrients and water to be fully ready to wrestle. If this wrestler was to weigh in 1 hour before he wrestles the most he would weigh is 157, but he would be bloated and weak as the nutrients would not have had time to be digested. Giving wrestlers 12 hours to pack on the pounds does encourage unsafe weight pulling. I would love to hear an arguement against this thought process. I cant think of one that would hold water.

C'mon folks do you not remember high school kids cutting huge weight before the new rules? Cutting is so much better now then it was in the days of plastics , boiler rooms,saunas, no water for you kid, be a man, skipping class to run,spitting in a cup during class, wearing plastics to class and to bed , etc. coaches and athletes are so much better trained now. Cutting is not relevant to the time of day you weigh in!! So very few, I would say less than 2-3 kids on a team manage their weight properly. You tell every athlete the same nutrition principals, and it rarely sinks in. Is it the kids fault, the coaches fault, the parents fault or the national federation rules fault or even kshsaa s fault? (Musselman is to blame for sure lol). No it is not! 14-18 year old kids are going to do what they are going to do. I remember kids eating pizza after a 5 pm weigh in for a dual and watching them puke or poop on the mat at the hs and college level. I remember cutting class to make weight. I remember being a zombie in the classroom all day. I remember leaving at 3 am to get to a weigh in. None of those things are in the best interest of a young man. Today's rule in ks is so much better for our kids. I really believe that about 80% of our coaches support the rule. Mr. Mann hit the nail on the head, if you want change you have to work hard for it. I have personally helped teams of ks coaches change two kshsaa rules. You convince your administrators, your league administrators, State wide league admins then Kwca then you talk to many kshsaa executive board members then you go to a few executive board meetings with said admin and support from Kwca then you get things changed. It is very hard work and like most kids with nutrition issues most folks resolve themselves to complaining rather than doing Wow my post in a year or so!! Keep the current weigh in system!

Cutting weight comes down to a couple things.
1. What weight can I make varsity
2. What weight can I win state, place or qualify, depending upon your goal
Yes there are a few that just wrestle where they lie, but that is not the overwhelming norm for kids. And that my friends will never never change

Kids are still doing this. You are living in a fantasy world if you think they are not.

I'd say about 80% supported dividing 4A into two classes in football. That way the State Championships could be spread around a little more and everyone could have a chance.

Just because today's rules are better, does not mean they are where they should be or that we shouldn't try to make them better. Oklahoma, Missouri, Ohio, Iowa, and others are following the National Rule for a reason. Kansas has not got it figured out or they would be following our system. I would hope that we could evolve into a better system, oh wait, Kansas just changed their stance on Evolution also. Last State in the Union to do so, but we finally got that right. Hopefully we wont have to wait so long to get this changed as well.

Having weighed in during high school and college shoulder to shoulder, 1-2 hrs before competition and coaching under both systems, I believe our current weigh-in rules are the best for our athletes. Yes, I understand that our athletes still use plastics, saunas, etc. Our choice is for athletes to begin making their final cut down to weight at practice the night before competition and making weight that morning, or showing up for school the morning of competition and cutting weight during the school day for the weigh in that night. I do believe cutting weight during the school day does negatively impact not only academic performance but also opens the window for school staff to frown upon our sport.
The down side is we don't like it when we hear that some schools don't follow the weigh in rules and I realize shoulder to shoulder weigh in's would solve that. The fact that we do weigh in shoulder to shoulder at regionals and state helps make that issue more palatable. I strongly believe that academically we have it right for our student-athletes.

I wrestled in Mo. and have had 4 sons wrestle in Ks. (high school & College) I agree that weight cutting during the school day is bad for all of the reasons stated above and more.

The solution to all of this is simple and would eliminate weight cutting as we now know it. Matside weigh-ins before each bout. with the technology that we have (scales etc.) there is absolutely no reason not to.

Im still amazed Kansas is doing morning weigh-ins on duals. Are there any other states still doing this? I remember my days of morning weigh-ins in Kansas. You cut big weight, then weigh in the morning, then you gorge and end up being 6-7lbs heavier at match time. I think it promotes bigger cuts, but wrestlers are fresher at match time.

My son wrestles in Indiana and we do weigh ins one hour before duals and one to two hours before tournaments with the referee on site. This adds another question: Who is doing the skin checks? Are the referee's making the kids strip prior to the match or is the AD checking? I think its a better situation for the refs to do skin checks rather than ADs. Referees at least have a little training. I can also see some cheating on this by ADS.

Which also brings up another point. I remember a prominent Kansas wrestling program 20 years ago that got busted cheating with their AD weighing their team in? So yes more cheating opportunities are available. Dont say it cant happen.

Also you have the variability in scales. How many schools have that light scale even though certified. Its only fair if the kids weigh in the same scale?

How does Kansas get away with morning weigh ins for duals or even offsite weigh ins?

To answer one of your questions: Referees do skin checks.

I strongly don't believe we are doing this for academic reasons. The kids will be pulling just as much on Wed instead of Thursday. Either way, they are not thinking of Academics and are thinking of pulling weight.

How many studs can get beat on the first day of competition when they have to make +1 that night compared to the second day when a 106 pounder can weigh up to 126? You(Coaches) are encouraging weight pulling and hiding behind academics. Be honest, at least with yourself.

Matside weigh-ins before each bout...

Sorry you don't believe me Beeson, but I do think it has academic repercussions. Not trying to hide behind it. In the old days I along with all my teammates cut weight when we weighed in right before competitions. So, weighing in before competitions does not stop wrestlers from cutting weight. If a wrestler is cutting an unhealthy amount of weight it will catch up to him. Good coaches talk with their athletes about what amount of weight is reasonable to cut.
Tonight we wrestle Salina South at Campus at 6pm. If we weighed in at 5pm what time does Salina South have to leave school. If they have to leave school early for shoulder to shoulder weigh in and they have to do that 4-5 times a year does that affect their academics?
We are not afraid of making weight before the competition. In fact, we wrestled in a 2 day tournament in Oklahoma this weekend and had to make weight both Fri and Sat mornings (no Friday evening weigh in allowed). Every one of our wrestlers wrestled the same weight during the weekend shoulder to shoulder 2 hour before competition weigh as they do during the morning weigh-ins before evening dual competitions.
A compromise to me would be to allow morning weigh-ins for mid week competitions and have shoulder to shoulder at all tournament weekend competitions.

From my experiences morning weigh ins DO promote bigger weight cuts! I know I cut an unhealthy amount of weight because I knew I could get "healthy" in the 12 hours until dual meet time. I have also witnessed the same from others in the last 25 years I have been around it.

Tournaments were totally different. I know that I was a completely different wrestler for duals than for tournaments because of the rehydration period or lack of for tournaments.

The academic reason is without a doubt hogwash. The extreme weight cutters don't start the dehydration process the day of the meet....it is a several day process with the last day being the most extreme. Therefore kids are not focused on school for several days.

I would totally support matside weighins.

Maybe someone should start getting the ball rolling on trying to change it. I think a very good point that can be made is by doing a 5pm weigh-in it will help manage weight. The better weight management the better the classroom and mat performance is going to be. It can reduces forms of bulimia being practiced. I know the hardest part of cutting weight really was not getting the weight down but keeping it under control with self control.

Just so everyone wont think I am just stirring the pot, I am contacting our AD about this. I have spoke with my Head High School Coach Greg Buckbee, who is 100% in agreeance with me. Getting on the talk forum is just another way to get it talked about. Although not everyone believes it, there are several Principals and AD's that get on this site and check it out. With enough discussion, they may see a need and help the cause.

I really don't think it is that big of an issue. Most teams are wrestling another dual or tournament the next day or the day after so most kids are smart enough not to put on to much weight to have to work off in that short amount of time.

"plastics , boiler rooms, saunas, no water for you kid, be a man, skipping class to run,spitting in a cup during class, wearing plastics to class and to bed , etc."

Probably kids are still doing these things, but kids better NOT be doing these under the supervision or with the blessings of school personnel.

If kids are resorting to these methods to get down and stay down it means the school probably cheated on the hydration testing at alpha weigh-in and certification. . .which means those schools will probably cheat and abuse any system that is put into place.

Schools would cheat? AD's would cheat?

You are 100% correct. There is no way around weighing in 1 hour before the match. Your performance will prove that.

I don't believe the weigh in deal is that big of a problem either way although it would be nice to weigh in right with your opponent at duals. It would probably add some mind games in some cases. There is no way this should be implemented in Tourneys, they already get drug out to long in some cases. I think the biggest change that could be made is implementing riding time just like in college. It would promote better wrestling from top and bottom and lets face it the Refs have no idea or better I say way varying opinions on what is deemed stalling in top or bottom position. This is deemed a judgment call and can very easily dictate a close match. Riding time aligns with college and prepares those who are good enough to go on.

Why All of a sudden is this a big deal?

From the dawn of time every wrestler pulls weight. It's part of the sport. 1-10lbs, is pulling. Who cares. You have to pick your battles. If a football player comes in at 220 and continues to loose weight in the wrestling room, is he pulling or just working hard?

Coaches build the best team they can for the season. Which means if you have 3 quality kids at one weight, then 1 goes up, 1 goes down, and the other remains at the weight.


I say leave it up to Kansas and ALL the coaches to figure it out. Not a parent/fan of the sport.

Mat side weigh ins will only hurt our sport and the team. Remember it's HS, not college. These are kids.

"Schools would cheat? AD's would cheat?"

I can say with 99.9% certainty that NONE that I am associated with "out here" do. . .and I would say the vast majority across the State don't. However, there are always "outliers."

Several points:

These are kids- Well then they should not be pulling vast amounts of weight.

Remember it is High School not College- The Majority of Ranked Wrestlers will be wrestling in College in the next two years. They should be prepared.

Remember it is High School not College- 90% of High School kids across the country are following these rules. Why shouldn't Kansas?

If a Football player blah blah blah 220...that's not who we are talking about. We are talking about 106 lb wrestlers weighing 125 the second day of State. They are just kids, and 20 lbs for a 106 wrestler is unhealthy.

One other thing to keep in mind. I am ALMOST certain that when he member state high school associations of the NFHS vote on rules changes to the sport of wrestling that KSHSAA does NOT get a vote because they do not follow all of the NFHS rules for weigh-ins. I heard this when I first got to Kansas and was discussing this. Not sure if it is entirely accurate but someone else might know more than I.

Not that wrestling is making any huge rules changes at the HS level because they aren't.

Then if preparing is the point of this topic, start with club wrestling and make them do hydration tests and mat side weigh ins.

See how far you get with that, before trying to change HS.

Good luck.

Do any of you understand how much paperwork and weekly mathematical calculations are involved in the NFHSAA descent plan? Wrestling does not need anymore paper work.

The Kansas 8% plan from the Alpha weigh-in is more strict on weight-loss than the NF plan. And it is much more simple. Yes a doctor could allow an athlete it lose more than the 8%, but that should be a well thought out plan by Doctor, Parent, Athlete, & Coach.

I like the Kansas Weigh-In rules. Most team's schedule today is much more active than 20 years ago when I saw more weight cutting. IMO kids are not cutting near as much weight today because they are having to weigh-in many more times. My team wrestles a good deal in Nebraska as well as in Kansas. And they make weight fine under either system. However the Kansas System is much more convenient. Travel, and loss of Instructional time are the big advantages.

Finally, I believe if kids are cutting too much weight, it will eventually catch up with them, and that may not be until the Regional or State Tournaments. But it will catch up with them.

In one breath you are saying that High School students are just kids....in the next breath, try it with kids. High School is where they prepare for College, not 3rd and 4th grade. Your argument is getting comical at best.

Thank you Coach Johnson. At least you are giving the real reason why the High School Coaches not wanting this rule change don't want it. That I can respect.



That is assuming the schools are not cheating at Alpha weigh-in. That is also assuming that the Doctor, Parent, Athlete, & Coach come up with a plan instead of the Doctor just signing the slip of paper.



I think the weight cutting is the same. You just don't see it today, they hide it better. Convenience should never be a reason to not follow rules.



It does catch up with them, I have seen it every year. The problem is we make it too easy during the season and then they get caught instead of taught to do it right during the year.

If there are kids going to class and practicing in plastics thier coaches and admin should be fired on the spot, And in my world of reality those same coaches kids and admin would cheat regardless of when the weigh in is. Which brings us back to the point. 1. There is overwhelming support by ks coaches for the weigh in rules 2. A random rant on a forum will not appropriate change. Change requires hard work and organization.

Coach Johnson brought up a point that needs to be considered in this conversation and that is the number of competitions.

This year is the 50th anniversary of the Norton Wrestling Tournament. We are reproducing the wrestling page from the 1965 Norton Yearbook to use as our program cover. On this page is the 1965 Norton season schedule, which I am sure was very typical for that time and which is also probably the "golden age" of cutting weight.

The 1965 season consisted of 7 duals, one each with the individual League Schools and two single day invitational tournaments, that is it. A regular season consisted of around 15 matches. Most of our kids now have that many matches by Christmas!

Basically, in those days there was one weigh-in per week with only 2 back-to-back Friday/Saturday weigh-ins. Also, at that time the state qualifying tournament series took two weeks: a one-day district tournament followed by a one-day regional tournament rather than a two-day regional. At that time the only two-day tournament on the schedule was State.

Changing from days/kinds of competition to competition points has led to our kids "toeing" the line on a much more regular basis. This has led to a big increase in the number of weigh-ins during the week and back-to-back weigh-ins. For example, we have a team that comes to our tournament that has a dual on the Thursday and the Friday prior to coming to Norton on Saturday. That is 1/3 of the weigh-ins, in one week, that a 1965 wrestler would have had to have met in the entire regular season.

I would like to see the Friday night weigh in go away forn two day events. Make it day of, one hour before.

1965...Many of the parents of today's wrestlers weren't born yet! I am not sure what the point is but lots and lots of things have changed since 1965. Kansas lags in flexibility to improve and a reduction of competition points or number of weigh ins would put us further back in the pack!

The point was that the system we have now is not the same as it has always been. . .and many clamoring for change competed in far different circumstances. The avenue to change has been discussed and all the reasons why change can't be pursued have been aired. I am removing myself from this discussion.

Friday night weigh in seems pointless considering some of the kids can tank on 10+ pounds in a night. ( well in a few hours after weigh in :)) I disagree about the hour before. I had to follow the one hour weigh in rule in college and honestly it was barely enough time to get your food down, clothes on and warmed up properly.

Common sense would tell you that weighing in more than 2 hours gives the wrestlers more recovery time thus influences wrestlers to cut more weight than if they had to weigh shoulder to shoulder 2 hours before competition. I really don't understand why in a two day event you can't make all of the wrestlers weigh on Saturday morning.

Maybe its the Festivus spirit, or maybe I'm just closing the year strong, but Lord help me...I agree with Mr. Cokeley.

My son's senior year he was at a dual tourney on a Friday night. Due to teams wrestling on Wednesday and Thursday they got a 2 lb allowance. (Another thing I do not understand.) Saturday, my son commented that the wrestlers on one team said they got 3 lbs. He was a little confused. Later that year a wrestler from that team did not make weight for the 2nd day at regionals. Maybe a coincidence...

Yes, it probably does catch up with the people who cheat as was stated by someone else on this forum. But, they have already caused a lot of damage. The wrestlers who lose to those that do cheat face lower seeds at regionals and worse odds of making it to state. I know we hate to see the wrestlers at school on the day of a meet sitting at the far end of the cafeteria spitting in an empty milk carton, but the current weight in system just conceals a bigger, worse problem.

So nothing changes that would mean that we need to revisit the argument? We wrestle in Iowa, Oklahoma, Texas, Colorado, and Missouri. All of the wrestlers in these states follow the National rules... Why are we different? We have so many HS coaches that really don't care what other states are doing and they really don't care if they can't compete outside of the 105 counties in KS so we just fall further and further behind. It seems the KSHSAA and attitudes like the one in the post above breed the apathy and mediocrity that is trying to be forced down our throat.