Why is our season longer in Kansas than the national average and especially our neighboring states? What do they do differently that apparently works for them? These are the questions we need to ask when looking at issues such as this...Newsflash: no matter how it is changed people are going to freak out--& they will get over it.

If baseball starts in January out there and the young wrestlers are still staying through March for the state series, then why would moving the dates hurt anything? They have proved they will stay if there is a good enough incentive (State). If we move the dates we would need to start freestyle tournaments as soon as folkstyle state is over so there is not the void that causes kids to move on. Not all kids will stay with freestyle, and I'm not sure that moving dates is the answer. However if that is what we are considering we need to go in with a plan for March and April so that we are not just giving up earlier. If we transition while there is still a want for more instead of waiting until they are ready to be done, we just may be able to keep interest through Freestyle State.... and in my opinion that would be a big win.

All the push for earlier Freestyle. Yet we see a lot of national level folkstyle tournaments and duals in April. My sons have choose to extend wrestling season (regular season ending with Kansas kids state) with the folkstyle opportunities. It seems like the motivation/rationale to move state is not centered around what it should be.

What are the cons of when state is now (date)? I know it is a long season is one con. I have yet to hear my own kids complain in March about wanting to be done with wrestling.

Ok lets take a look at when the other states are starting. These are all the earliest tournaments i can find on track for each state. This is not including national tournaments.

Nebraska-11-7-15
Colorado- 10-17-15
Kansas- 12-5-15
New Mexico- 11-15-15
Texas- 10-17-15
Oklahoma- 10-17-15
Missouri- 12-06-15

State tournaments for each state
colorado- 3-5-3-6 length of season 140 days
Kansas- 3-25-3-26 length of season 112 days
Missouri 2-27-2-28 (AAU) length of season 84 days
Nebraska 3-12-3-13 length of season 126 days
New Mexico 2-27-2-28 length of season 105 days
Oklahoma 1-28-1-30 length of season 106 days
Texas 2-27-2-28 (AAU) length of season 119 days

Had to use AAu because i could not find a state tournament on track for them under USA wrestling. So the average lenght of season is 113.14 days. This means we are right in line on average. The difference is the start time for the season. So we could move the start time up to November but then again we are fighting football.

Jeremy thanks for that data. I guess the season length is average.

I have a few ideas i have been tossing around for a while. We can shorten the season by having district on the first week in march and state the following weekend. Each district has the choice of district site. But it will have to be like District 2 and have it at Kansas star casino. I know for District 4 i was thinking like Hays. Great facility and neutral travel for almost everyone. Means state would fall on March 12th this year. This should clear up spring break for most people. This also allows the HS division in. The one downfall is you will run into RMN Rocky Mountain Nationals. But this happens anyways right now for the older kids.

Another area i have been thinking on is tournaments. Everyone is talking about how tournaments are getting diluted and competition is not there. Heck i have seen it will my own two eyes. Kinda an idea i was tossing around is having teams work together. By that i mean having two or more teams working together to host a tournament and splitting everything equally. Does not mean we will see better numbers but if we eliminate the options, then the chances increase. The best thing would be have each district only host 1 tournament a weekend. Of course you could travel to any tournament you want but this is not going to happen. But what would be nice is to see is 3-5 tournaments instead of 4-8 tournaments a weekend this might make the competition better. Plus means everyone still gets a chance at fundraising and the cost is split. just an idea. Just think we are getting too spread out and diluted

My two cents
-Eliminate sub-districts state wide
-Districts starts 1st weekend in March (weekend after HS State)
-State will be the following weekend (same age groups as always)
-The season will finish 2 weeks earlier & everyone gets their spring break back and will never interfere with the Easter weekend again.

I personally don't like any of the changes. If you move up the date on the qualifying tournaments then our jr high wrestlers wouldn't get to wrestle in them or they wouldn't have the experience of wrestling jr wrestling. Our last jr high meet is March 5. I think if people are worried about money then why is state centrally located. There are probably more wrestlers in the Wichita area then any other area but instead of having it there we make everybody drive to the north east part of the state. That only benefits the northeastern people. In my opinion leave things alone that isn't broken. There is different ways to save money than shorting the season. If you take out subs then you are probably going to go to a different tournament that weakend so how does that save you any money

We have a 6 & under and Elementary Folk Style State Tournament
Then we have a Middle School Folkstyle Championship (this is used to create national dual teams)
Then we have the USA WKS folk style "State Championship"

We use to only have 1 Folkstyle state tournament with 16 & under as the oldest division, 14U, 12U, 10U, 8U. I liked that - the 16U (typically kids who do not start wrestling until high school) was a good way to develop some the JV guys and not as experience freshman and sophomores who made varsity but may not placed at HS state. Our more experience/accomplished wrestlers will find national events and competition. Taking the older kids state and seperating the young kids state - I do not agree with that. Those 8 & 10 year olds look up to those 12, 14 & 16 year olds for "leadership" at practices and at tournaments. Those are just a few of my thoughts.

The other State Tournament has stayed about the same FS/GR

I think having 2 "State" tournaments is enough - 1 FS/GR and the other Folkstyle.

I think our national dual teams can be determined from the 2 state tournament series. We have been taking a lot of multiple teams to these out of state events and I think they can be very valuable. We need to look very very closely at the attrition rate and where and what age groups we are losing kids and why. My thought process in the morning is more clear when I am at a computer - instead of typing on this phone - so I will share more ideas and experiences with the committee when I get a good nights sleep.

One more thing - length of folkstyle season is about 3.5 -4 months for our clubs open wrestlers - it is about 1 month shorter for the novice group - but they can chose to continue with the open group. The kids from our club have the opportunity for about 3.5 - 4 months for FS/GR. In general a very very small percentage of the approximately 1,500 kids that I have coached over the last 35 years do or did wrestle 8 months of the year.

When does the Survey period begin (date) and end (date)? Just wondering so that the entire membership can have time to appropriately respond to the survey. Can the survey questions be added to this talk forum? When will the survey results be provided to the State Body or Clubs? At the state meeting in the fall in late October or November?

I want to be part of the survey and so should you. Be sure to get it to your club members as well.

(If a person wants to participate in the survey but they do not believe their email or their wrestler’s email is on file with USA Wrestling, then they can forward their name, email address, club name, and card number (participant or coach) to Joe Knecht at joe.knecht@gmail.com.

joe.knecht@gmail.com

Here are my thoughts on this subject.

1. Get rid of subs. No real need for them. My son has had a bracket at subs only 2 times in 6 years in wrestling the current state series. Have districts the week of subs and state the following week. This way the wrestling kids can start summer wrestling, baseball kids can focus on baseball, and I can go fishing sooner.
2. If state is moved up sooner this may help push the state to set a season for JR High wrestling for the whole state to follow. I know my son would rather be a state champion than a Jr. High League champion. Yes my son is going to start his JR. High season on Monday. Kids may have to make tough choices sooner than we like parents. Growing up is hard sometimes.
3. I don't like having two state championships. Remove the High School kids. Put the 6 under kids in their place.


Josh Parker

All valid points. But I'll give my two cents worth......

I didn't hear anyone talk about making it easier on the HS kids to continue. I am one of the ones that is terribly disappointed in the lack of participation of the HS kids at kids' state since we changed it. I'll lay it on Chief Renegade again, him taking a lot of our best to Colorado put the brakes on that division taking off, in my opinion. As soon as we got a "grand state" type format put together, someone puts together an "All Star" team to go out of state, when all of us wanted to see who the baddest man in the state was......

You are correct, there would be less weekends for clubs to run tourneys. There are also opportunities for clubs to work tables at some of the larger tourneys, and get paid for that, without the hassle of running the tourneys from scratch. With the shorter season, there will be less to fund for the clubs. I'm not privy to how clubs spend their tourney profits, but our club self funds, so as far as club expenses that get paid from these profits, I couldn't comment. People go to Oklahoma to wrestle early as it is, and that won't change. We don't start until football is over either. What you need to ask yourself is this: if we started at the same time, will your kids be peaking at state in Feb, if we change it? Right now, I can give example after example of kids that peaked early, and were struggling to "survive" practice and wrestle well at state at the end of March. The kids that can handle this kind of grind, from Nov thru April, won't change a thing. But those that "get sick of it" will benefit from moving the state tourney up.

We won't compete with Liberty Nationals. It is same weekend as HS regionals. 6,8,10 state would be the week before. And Liberty Nationals is one of the most prestigious tourneys in the Midwest, and it is run in one day. Winning Liberty is more of an accomplishment than winning state, so running state in one day isn't a bad thing. We do it for 6u State now.

A lot of families have just one kid wrestling, a lot of families would have kids wrestling in both state tourneys, if it happens. So for sure we benefit the families with only one kid. Only one trip, only one night of hotels. You are correct, the families with kids in both tourneys would have the same amount of hotel that they do with our current 2 day tourney, AND they have an extra trip's worth of gas. But with splitting the tourneys, we have the option to move the tourneys around. Dodge City, Hays, Salina, Wichita, Topeka, Pittsburg, Emporia?, just shooting from the hip there. So there is a possibility that the tourney might be close enough to save the entire hotel room. Right now, only the Topeka area families benefit from having the state tourney in Topeka. I would look forward to sleeping in my own bed during the state tourney for a change. Not to mention the fact that we get HOSED big time on hotel rates in Topeka. With only 900 kids versus 1600 kids, the demand is way down, and the prices would not be so high.

Remember, Wichita and Topeka are the ONLY options for running our state tourney in its current format. Wichita was way high on their "bid", so Topeka is where we are stuck for now.......It's like going to the only car lot in town and they have two cars to choose from, one you struggle to afford, and the other you CAN'T afford. It is the lesser of two evils. With the split tourneys, you get OPTIONS.

Not to mention that the state tourney is a bear to coach the finals, as there are 15 matches (5 age divisions, 1st, 3rd, 5th place matches at same time) going on at the same time. It would be nice to be able to watch more than one of those matches at the same time. At least if we split, there would only be 9 matches going on at the same time. (3 age divisions, 1st, 3rd, 5th place matches at same time)

Those duals teams have grown from taking one team, to now taking I believe 6 teams in Elementary, and I think 6 in Middle School.

I think the Wichita area middle school season would have to change to where the rest of the state is (ends in December or January?), or those middle school kids would be left out of our state series. I think this should happen anyway, but kids would have to make a choice, our state series, or middle school. I think when the coaches and ADs start seeing their numbers decline, it might motivate them to change the middle school season to the same statewide.

"I think our national dual teams can be determined from the 2 state tournament series. We have been taking a lot of multiple teams to these out of state events and I think they can be very valuable. "

You must not have had to listen to the screaming moms and dads back when the teams were "picked". There is NO better way to "pick" the teams, than a tourney. Remember, you have different age groups wrestling middle school state, not just a 14u or 12u. And sometimes the 12u kid is better than the 14u kid.....
So I TOTALLY disagree with your statement. We will get the majority of it right, but a tourney takes all of the complaining out of it.

From what I've read most everyone agrees with getting rid of Sub-Districts. - SEEMS LIKE A LOCK TO PASS

If that is accomplished it seems sensible to move the state series up and be done before spring break. - SEEMS LIKE A NO BRAINER!

HAVING TO WRESTLE OVER SPRING BREAK IS A MAJOR DETERRENT FOR HIGH SCHOOLERS!

I do not like the idea of two state tournaments! Many parents and coaches would still have to attend both. - I ALSO LIKE THE FACT THE YOUNGER KIDS CAN WATCH THE KIDS THEY LOOK UP TO!

Although I think it's very important to raise the level of Kansas wrestling I think the focus needs to be on the wrestling community as a whole AND increasing participation, not just catered to elite wrestlers!

JR. HIGH WRESTLING IN KANSAS IS A JOKE AND NEEDS REFORMED. improving that system would definitely help raise the level of competition.

How does any of these ideas for change cater to elite wrestlers? Elite wrestlers will always be just that, because they will do what is required to hold that stature. If anything, these proposals are catering to those that don't want the season to be as long, which is not typically an argument that an elite wrestler would make. An elite wrestler would be asking for a longer season wouldn't he/she?

That was a general statement....not directed towards your post!

Most of the people trying to make changes were elite wrestlers or Father's of elite wrestlers. That is not a bad thing. The reason they are or were elite is because they have spent many years in our state wrestling system so they are experienced. Most 1st and 2nd year parents have no idea why a change is even needed.

I just don't want to lose sight of the fact that the MAIN GOAL SHOULD BE TO INCREASE PARTICIPATION! The more kids that participate the more elite wrestlers we will eventually have.

While we have a lot of people talking about changes can some one explain to me this. Most of the middle schools in Kansas have 6th through 8th grade in them. Why can't 6th graders be on school athletic teams?

They can participate in all activities other than football, wrestling, and boxing. This comes from the KSHSAA manual. I understand football for injury reasons, but wrestling is by weight, so the kids aren't going against an opponent who is significantly larger or stronger. I'm not sure there are any schools participating in boxing. Quite frequently we see 6th graders in basketball, volleyball and track so teams can be filled.