Taunting

Could someone help me out here? I thought that when a kid could pin another kid he was supposed to do so. Not take him down let him up take him down get him almost pinned then let him up. I asked a ref about this and he said it was up to the ref officiating the match. I didn't have a kid in this match or did I know anyone of them but I didn't think it was right. So is the ref supposed to let this go on or not?

As long as said wrestler is not being let up off of his back without turning to his stomach first, there is no rule. It goes on every tournament. Even at Nationals, take em down let them up. Usually the better wrestlers work different take downs on lesser opponents (that they wouldn't normally do daily) Just part of the sport. Mat time is what kids are looking for. If you pin a kid in 15 seconds, what good did it do either wrestler?

It's legal.. At times it's strategic. The wrestler is attempting to warm-up, get some practice in a live situation, or frustrate the other opponent.

If the other kid is a fish, it isn't right at all. If the other kid is capable of defending himself, I see nothing wrong with a kid getting more work on his feet.

You can't cut a kid from his back to his feet, that is unsportsmanlike I believe, and is a penalty point.

If the other kid isn't able to put up a decent fight, I say pin him and get it over with, noone is getting anything out of it. What should happen is the good kid should use some technique that is new to him, or that he needs work on. If a kid pins everyone with a bar arm half, tell him to use something other than that to pin the kid, so he is forced to broaden his arsenal.

But the question should be asked, what is more demoralizing, getting taken down repeatedly, or getting pinned in 5 seconds.

Both kids paid their entry fee, one knowing he can get some extra work in, the other knowing it is possible he could get his a$$ handed to him. Careful to not "protect" kids from reality, but I also see your point IF you are talking about a kid that is not very good, wrestling a kid that is very good. I saw it at USJOC, and the kid doing the cutting was a stud, and the kid getting cut was repeatedly taken down with nothing more than a bullrush. No technique.

I will stand my ground with anyone if they tell me to have my kid pin their kid quickly. Nothing wrong with working some technique, if the circumstances are right.

My two cents worth.

What does anyone get from a 15 sec match. Even if my kid were a fish, I would be grateful for the mat time. Even if it was just neutral. Neutral is the most important position....and for this very reason. Our team works neutral twice as much as any position. If you can win on your feet you can win matches. If you can not win on your feet than the experience on your feet can be gained by someone giving you extra time on your feet. a 5 sec match benefits no one. That is not even a warm up. My 3 cents.

I know its legal to take him down and let him up, my question really is, that I saw the kid have the other on his back two or three times almost with the pin and then he would let him up. I thought this was considered taunting or bad sportsmanship and it wasn't supposed to be allowed? The coach for the kid who was getting taken down was very upset and he let the other coach know it. For my two cents I say if you can get it over with then get it over don't make anyone look bad...

Little Billy needs to learn how to work off of his back too...The more chances big Jake gives little Billy the better off little Billy will be in the long run......

I think Doug said it all, if he is able to "defend" himself game on.

Either way on the back or on the feet.

There are several moves my son learned while getting it "applied" to him in a match by a far better wrestler.

I would say to the kids at Valley Center who was letting kids up.. young man should have gone to the USJOC!!! Wrestle the best weekend and week out!! That is how you get better!

There are two situations -- the first is taking your opponent down and letting him up to run up the score. That is allowed and is referenced as legal in the case book. It has always been legal. There is no near fall in this situation. Just take downs and escapes.

The second is having your opponent on his back and not pinning him when it is obvious you can but instead you let him off his back and then put him right back into near fall. This is taunting (by definition) and is not allowed. However, you won't find this in the case book and many officials do not remember that when the taunting rule was first adopted about 10 years ago this was one of the examples of taunting that was published in the NFHS Officals' Quarterly. This was a common call at that time, but over the years it has become less common. You don't see the violation happen much in high school. Some officials will get down close and caution the wrestler after the second turn and tell the wrestler not to let him off his back again. That usually takes care of the situation.

A wrestler can avoid the taunting call by making it look like the opponent works off his back. Instead of just jumping off, if there is a little play-acting most officials will let that go. If it doesn't look like taunting, it probably is not.

Great information,I was looking for this.

Here was a 5 sec pin. With no hands!! Now I ask you, which is taunting wrestling takedowns or a leg cradle. To me, give me takedowns. www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRpPlvaN-O0
If someone would prefer this, just request it. I am sure your opponent would oblige.

Thanks Rford that is what I was asking, you answered what I thought. The ref let it go on but after the match he went to the corner of the coaches and talked with them.

Saw this happen this past weekend at Augusta High School. So it happens at all levels. Is it right?? It is just part of the sport.

Yeah it happened in Chanute. If this is the same matched being referred to that I saw, the takedown and let up took four seconds all together each time. Kid kept doing it with grin on his face. Opponent almost brought to tears. After match, the "good" kid wouldn't even shake the opponents hand. Problem is, coach is daddy and real proud of that. Kid has done this his entire career and is dirty anytime he is on the mat. Fists to the nose. Direct elbows to the back of the neck. Maybe he will grow up some day but I doubt when the coach allows it. To me this kid, is unsportsmanlike all the way.

yeah thats the way I see it to, heck take them down and run moves that you need work on...

Leg Cradle is a legitimate move, along with the spladle and many other moves that work well for some kids but not the norm. In no way is it taunting.

I have been on both the receiving end of this subject, but then again I have done this to a handfull of kids. I don't think it's right anymore, if I could I would go back and just pin the kids. I recently had a kid who I was coaching just toying with another young man and I got on him about it. I think it's unsportsmanlike, and kids should go out to pin kids as soon as they can. However, if a kid is just balling up on the bottom and not doing anything I am all for taking him down and letting him up.

I understand Beeson, my "step"son was the one running the leg cradle. Takedowns are within the rules also. My point being both have some showmanship to them. Both show off superiority over the opponent. That particulat leg cradle won the OW award for that tournament. Same as being flawless on your feet could win an award. All this talk of taunting, from the time 2 kids step on the mat 1 is going to run a chance of getting shown up. Unless we stop keeping score and handout orange slices after matches. The best thing about this sport is if you feel shown up, you can control how hard you work how much time you put in how many pushups you do how many camps you go to.....and you come back the following year chomping at the bit to draw that kid again and kick his butt. Now I did not see the particular match referred to in this thread, but take a trip to Tulsa Nationals and watch how every match shows up the next.
If a kid/coach feels he/she is being shown up, it is clearly within the rules to insrtuct them to fall to their back, lie there and do not budge until the horror is over. Yet, it is easier to blame an opponent. Next time from the time the whistle is blown fall directly to your back ande lie there still as can be. No taunting discussions will arise then.

Takedown I suppose you thought Maywheathers win over Ortiz was the way a champion should win a fight right? Like you said you were'nt there, dont forget this is not some huge mega tournament, it was Great Bend and it was a great tournament but they are just kids bro. It's like saying to a kid it's okay to pick on a kid who is weaker then you at school, keep doing it until the kid gets strong enough to fight back or better yet kill you or himself. Now I know thats way out there but look at the things your posting there way out there too...

that is why you go live at practice, to work on those moves that you need some work on. when you go to tournaments i feel like you should always wrestle for MOW whether they give the award or not. especially if you wrestle against a lesser opponent. that just gives you a time advantage towards the MOW. no need to try to run off any lesser wrestlers as we need all the kids in the sport that we can get.

I can also give this perspective from a kids point of view. My oldest son, now in middle school was told by coach that he wanted him to tech someone the next day. My son explained to him, "I can't do that coach. I didn't like it done to me, I don't feel as if I should do it to someone else." Coach had enough respect for the reasoning that he didn't ask it of him again. However, trackwrestling rewards tech falls and majors more than they do pins. My son's record, just on trackwrestling, with 21 wins(19 by pin) and 12 losses gets a pretty horrible percentage compared to others with lesser win percentage just due to tech falls is my guess.

Isn't that why they have novice tournaments on Sundays? What about Ortiz's head butt? Was that sportsmanlike?

In the USA we now teach our kids to call 911 for every thing.In school we teach them they can not fight back.If they do fight back the school kicks them out for fighting.All the schools now push the NO BULLY thing over and over.
I think there is some thing roung there.You grab my wife I will not call 911[till it is done].I will teach my kids the same. You attack me I will defend wife,kids and myself [in turn atack you] We are teaching our kids to rely on some one else for help all the time.Life is not fair nor will it ever be.If some kid attacks my son I hope he will defend himself[attack back].I know I will spend every dim I have to let the school know here in the USA we can defend our self.
Now all of that said. My son is the nice kid.Every time he has made a piont is was becouse the oponet he was facing tryed to hurt him.We have been on the reciving end of some take downs over and over.I THANKED EVERY KID THAT DID THIS TO THE BOY. Life is hard. This is one of the only sports that if kids want,and work for it.They will get better and will not get made fun of.

Well said!!!!!

2 issues: 1) because I support COMPETITIVE sports I support bullying??? 2)trackwrestling does reward pins over techs - check the significant wins for percentage placement.
I will say it now, we will be at Salina and Maize back to back weeks and any wrestler who wants to do takedowns and let us back up repeatedly, thank you in advance. I understand the importance of Takedowns. After all one can not become a takedown machine without working and getting mat time on takedowns. We have been on both sides of this spectrum, and I have no issue with takedowns. The score is 2 takedowns to 1 escape. I suppose if there was a large outcry they would award 2 points for escapes and 1 for takedowns, but for now the emphasis would appear to be on takedowns. Hence, that is what I would focus on. The more mat time (in practice or a match) given to neutral position is more time to improve in that area and is appreciated.

Mike Chandler
Shawnee Mission,KS

ok enough about take downs and letting up, my question was really if the kid is in a pinning position can he then jump off the kid or is he supposed to pin him? That's all I really wanted to know. And MC Ortiz never should have done what he done and he got taken a point away, while Mayweather never should have done what he done but he got the belt and a crap load of money plus a win. But my question was is that the way a champion as good as Mayweather should win a fight???

It's unsportsmanlike conduct to let a kid straight off his back. There is some judgement involved as was the kid struggling and the offensive wrestler in a predicament (ie. reversal if he doesn't get off etc.) to just getting off of him.

I have to admit I got called for this once in High School because I didn't know what the rules were about it, after that I never did it again. I can see now being on the other side of the coin how it can be taken as unsportsmanlike.

Now onto the takedown vs. escape etc. debate. What's the difference if a kid takes another kid down and lets him up, down, up, down, up etc. and a kid who just cheap tilts another kid to a tech fall? Should he not turn the kid because he can't defend it?

Great point Bronco... there is no difference. It is accumulating points (the object if a pin is not obtained). You can wrestle out the length of a match for 1)working moves 2) warming up for a fierce match next round 3) loosening up tight/strained muscles from a previous match/practice. A pin can be achieved and points can also. Accumulating points is not always taunting.
Now, it is illegal to let a wrestler up directly off his back. However, much like in our practices (where niether kid benefits from staying in 1 pinning combo for the entire 30 sec-2min of live wrestling scramble) once back points have been obtained and a pin is inevitable you can "roll your opponent through" allowing him to belly down prior to cutting him to his feet. We often do this to keep the flow of wrestling going through live scrambles. The same can be applied to a match.

Thanks Bronco, that is what I thought and yes the kid let him straight off his back at least 3 times. That is what I ment by taunting when I first posted this topic...

Now onto the takedown vs. escape etc. debate. What's the difference if a kid takes another kid down and lets him up, down, up, down, up etc. and a kid who just cheap tilts another kid to a tech fall? Should he not turn the kid because he can't defend it?[/quote]

Some of it is just the sport...its always been allowed to do the takedown-release. And the case book OKs that technique. Maybe someday they'll revisit that technique.

Actually, you probably can't use a cheap tilt to run up points...each "pinning situation" results in only one set of NF points, and unless you release the arm and the kid can belly out and defend himself you should only earn one set....this gets called incorrectly quite often, and even at HS state some officials will forget the rule...you aren't suppose to be able to use the same pinning situation for multiple NFs.

I know that I as an official have and will stop a kid from tech falling a kid with just the takedown escape game if he absolutely cannot defend himself and the offensive guy is doing it to embarrass the kid, I will tell the offensive wrestler to keep it on the mat after allowing him to get sufficient work on his feet in my opinion.

At least with the turns, he is working towards an imminent fall, a takedown is nowhere near that. This is just my own opinion and not worth anymore than the paper it's typed on

Some of it is just the sport...its always been allowed to do the takedown-release. And the case book OKs that technique. Maybe someday they'll revisit that technique.

Actually, you probably can't use a cheap tilt to run up points...each "pinning situation" results in only one set of NF points, and unless you release the arm and the kid can belly out and defend himself you should only earn one set....this gets called incorrectly quite often, and even at HS state some officials will forget the rule...you aren't suppose to be able to use the same pinning situation for multiple NFs.
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I completely agree with you about breaking the hold and the defensive wrestler being allowed to get out of "eminent danger" before the NF points are allowed.

The takedown escape game can be construed as unsportsmanlike if done as a way of demeaning the opponent. Usually it's not the case but I have seen it that way and where my answer above comes from.

And if I'm needing to weigh in on the first night of a two day tourney, I'm probably not wanting to wrestle for 15 seconds, I'll want to get some work in. Am I supposed to take the guy down, and ride him the rest of the period, and ride him the second period, and get an escap in the third, so I only win 3-0, so his feelings aren't hurt?

Like most things in life, and like someone on this thread said, I can't define it, but I know when it isn't right............Use common sense.

I never understood the insult of someone wrestling the match out. To me the lowest form of losing is getting pinned. Beat me however you can, but I would be sure I wasn't getting pinned. You have a chance and are still in the match regardless of the score until you are pinned.
Matt Infranca whooped me. Tech falled me, but I did not give up the pin. I may have given 5 points to the other team, but I also saved my team 1 point. There is a reason why pins are worth the most team points. I can not grasp why anyone would request to get pinned over wrestling the match out.

I was waiting for this thread to pop up. I was the coach of the kid that got taken down and let up. This was the kid’s first match and has been with the club for a month. The tournament was posted that the novice "D" wrestlers would be put into brackets of the same category. There were only two kids that signed up for this weight class and they got put together. This is not a problem, I understand that. What upset me was the fact that this kid got taken down and taken to his back and the other kid just jumped off of him and stud there waiting for the kid to stand up just to be taken down again. This went on for 2 and 1/2 periods. By the middle of the third period the looked at me with a look like "what am I supposed to do?" I guess it’s my fault for not preparing him for a beating like this. I understand going a period getting a good warm up match in then working in the second to end it. But Not 2 and 1/2 periods of the same beating over and over. The score was like 22-8. It just didn't sit well with me. I know kids go to tournaments to get matches and mat time but there is a point that it becomes excessive. This was the first time I have ever had a match that was this excessive. The other coach and I discussed it after the match and all is good now. I guess in the future the kid will be ready for a match like this but I really don’t want to lose a kid in the first month he has been wrestling.

The question is whether what is happening meets the definition of taunting. It's like sarcasm...its not just the words used, its how they are said, the voice, the tone, the inflection, and in what context. The same words can be used, but they can be interpreted in two entirely different ways. In the abstract, its hard to define everything that can be demeaning. And sure, maybe losing is always demeaning to some extent, but you can win without being a jerk...

Very well said.

In Answer to your question. The Ref or wrestler Didn't do anything wrong. It happens, its unfortunate for the wrestler being handled. Mentally he'll bounce back I'm sure. My sons done it and at one point in his career had it done to him more than once.

Everyone's got great points and should add that now Jonny's guilty of it and its mostly my fault. At any local tournament where we go and give no concern to match outcomes, I just want him to get mat time he's not aloud to pin. My rule not his. Not because I want him to showboat just try different moves and work on things its really just practice and have fun. I should also add onetime he had a novice kid Headlock the heck out of him and pin him which was pretty funny. So it can come back to bite ya LOL

So, is it OK or Not?

In wrestling, the sport requires that you work for a fall, its not an option not to. That's in the rules, its stalling not to work for a fall, and its taunting and unsportsmanlike to put your opponent into criteria and then let him out of criteria. That's the starting point.TD-escapes, by rule, is treated differently. iIf coaches, dads, kids, or officials want to do something different, if they want to modify the rules, and the sport, to suit themselves and satisfy their own goals and needs, so be it. What I would suggest, though, if we want to foster and encourage wrestling as a sport, is that the adults teach the kids about sportsmanship and how you treat your opponent. You don't do things on that mat that will humiliate the other wrestler. yes, you will get kids that can't wrestle well, they are going to lose. In my opinion, just like you don't call them "fish," "loser," "crybaby" etc. in words, you don't do the same thing by using them as your training dummy in front of a crowd of friends, family and fans.For the religious, its the "golden rule."

We had the same type of situation with one of our wrestlers this past weekend as well, only we were on the winning side of this. I told my wreslter to work his moves, and to pin him before he had a double digit lead, as I feel if you are up by 12-14 pts and then pin them it is almost worse than a quick pin or a tech fall. Also with this particular wrestler, we had him exibition a much tougher opponent at the end of the tourn. to get him the mat time everyone everyone is looking for. He actually got beat in the exibition match. So I guess what I am trying to say is that I am not against working your moves, but dont humiliate the other wrestler, and remember there is other ways to get mat time at a tourn. such as exibitions with tougher kids.

Lance Geyer

Rford and L.Geyer hit it perfectly. It all about the attitude in which it is done. My kids have enormous amounts of respect for a wrestlers attitude. Give them one with respect for sport and opponents instead of a "hah, I'm a beast" competitor anyday.
Nothing comes from demeaning an opponent. Get your moves in then move on. If you work the same move over and over to demean someone, can you really call that mat time. Use your mat time wisely.