New for 2006-2007 season "Hydration testing"

First of all I’m not opposed to any rules that is in the best interest of a high school wrestler, but I do have some concerns on how the rules are mandated. If you are not aware the 2006-2007 season there will be hydration testing take place prior to the season (alpha weight) or first weigh in prior to practice beginning.

It is my understanding that nobody will be allowed to practice until an administrator or his designee (not a Coach) establishes weight at a proper hydration level. Either by urine color chart or a specific gravity of 1.025 or below. How fun for someone to analyze 65 urine samples! May be the school nurse will step up for this job!

Once the Alpha weight is established the wrestler will fall under the same 10% rule for weight loss (no big deal unless you can’t pass your **** test!) No urine…no practice!

You the must certify at your lowest weight by January 12th. Urine in hand… fully hydrated, before the weight will be considered your certification weight. No urine of proper color you are either done for the season or move up one weight till you pass your test. There are a few exceptions but you have to have these approved by the KSHSAA.

This is when it gets interesting… what if you don’t have half of your weigh-ins at your certified weight? You could be in trouble of making it to a qualifier for state.

What happens when you wrestle kids from surrounding states that are not playing by the same set of rules?

My thinking that just go back “Old school” and start doing shoulder-to-shoulder weigh-ins like they did when I was a kid and 90% of the problems would be solved! With a whole lot less administration.

Everyone chime in with your thoughts!

Does anyone know somebody from a state that is already using this hydration test? Maybe someone with experience would be able to explain all the ins and outs that will come with the new rules.

As a former Oklahoma coach and a new Kansas coach, I too was apprehensive of this new weight rule. In Oklahoma it is being implemented this year mostly because the National Federation says that it must be in order to be in compliance with all federation states. In Oklahoma they have done away with the 1/2 weigh ins and if your weight chart says that you started at 135 and you should make your flat weight of 112 on the thursday prior to regionals then you can wrestle at 112 at regionals providing you make flat 112 then you would get your 2 lb allowance on Saturday. But it does take the coach and school out of the equation because if you have those kids that say "coach I can't make that weight" and the chart clearly states that the kid can do it in a healthy manner then who's to argue? In Oklahoma we also had to have a doctor, nurse, or someone in the medical profession obtain 8 hours of training by the state in order qualified to do testing.

There isn't anyone else, as far as I know, that is using this specific rule for hydration testing. A KSHSAA sanctioned board (including Coaches, Administrators, and Doctors) developed these standards, which are much more liberal and less restrictive than the NFHS rules that Kansas has opted not to follow.

Red, I too have apprehensions, but think that shoulder to shoulder weigh ins wouldn't really address the issue that is trying to be solved. Basically the idea is to keep kids from severly dehydrating themselves to make weight. I don't believe shoulder to shoulder would discourage that. In fact if I were weighing in (thank goodness I don't have to!) I would probably lose more weight than I had to if I were weighing in shoulder to shoulder since I wouldn't always be familiar with the scales.

I think that one thing that will help the fact that you have to be hydrated to certify is the fact that now you don't have to certify on a competition date, and you can certify any time on or before January 12th as I understand the new rules. Basically this means each wrestler can certify any time they are on weight, are hydrated, and an administrator is present (even after a practice or before school some day).

All in all I think the new rules are less restictive and less time consuming to implement than the NFHS rules- which I definitely do not want to follow.

Iowa has been hydration AND fat testing for the past seven years. It is interesting to note that Iowa's current plan will NOT comply fully with the National Federation rule.

Also, it is true that if a state follows all three components of the NF plan to the letter (hydration, body fat measurement AND a descent plan which allows for no more that 1.5% loss of body weight per week (how would you like to keep those records!) a wrestler can wrestle a weight class at Regionals which he/she has not wrestled at all year! How to seed such a thing?

The Jan. 12 date for certification is no different than it has been for the past year. And yes, it is true that a wrestler will have to be hydrated at his weight in order to be certified. I can think of NO situation where a wrestler cannot certify by Jan. 12 (unless sick, injured, etc. ) I CAN beleive that there will be wrestlers who certify at a weight heavier than they would have wanted to.

Yes, it is true that an athlete will not be allowed to practice until they have a hydrated alpha weight. Alpha weight wil be allowed to be taken during buffer week, or the week before practice officially begins. Again, unless a kid decides to come out late there should be no reason why a hydrated alpha weight could not be recorded before practice ever begins. Allowances will be made for those schools with wrestlers athletes participating in the football playoffs--and this would involve four schools in each class by the time wrestlin practice officially begins.
Again a hydrated alpha weight may be at a heavier weight than a wrestler would have otherwise desired.

Checking urine is not one of those things that I got into the school business to do. And I plan to handle none of it; the cup should NEVER leave the athletes hand! But, if checking the specific gravity of urine needs to be done to ensure that our athletes are healthy and wise, so be it. Two people should be able to do our team of 40 or so in 45 minutes to an hour at most. Also, we will have specific gravity color charts posted in our locker room and our athletes will have access to clear plastic cups so they themselves can check their hydration levels daily if they choose.

The committee which developed these rule recommendations is composed of active and retired wrestling coaches, high school principals and superintendents who have wrestling backgrounds, physicians with back grounds and great interest in wrestling and a certified trainer. The committee has worked hard to balance the compliance with rules necessary to lessen all of our liabilities in the event of a tragic accident and to also keep the bookkeeping burden on our coaches and administrators to a minimum.

Wrestling is the oldest sport known to man; a few rule changes designed to safegaurd the health of our athletes and encourage proper nutrition instead of dangerous dehydration is not going
to kill it.

I bet a majority of kids aren't hydrated getting out of school going straight to practice...I see tons of flaws with this system, even at the NCAA level it's not full proof.

Aaron,

No argument here about the lack of hydration in our students; few people, young or old, drink enough water! Soda, coffee, tea does not count. Kids will be surprised if they will cut out their soda intake how much better they will be able to hydrate at a lower weight and how much harder and longer they will be able to work.

Many flaws? No doubt, especially for those who spend a lot of time figuring out how to "beat" the system. But, this is NOT a good enough reason to not do something that is (1) designed to protect the health of our athletes; (2) stress the importance of good nutrition; and (3) lesser our legal liability in the event of a tragic accident. A reasonable and prudent man is proactive.

I might remind you that it is BECAUSE OF the abuses in NCAA wrestling that these rules have been brought to the forefront; so please, don't use the NCAA as an argument against these new rules at the National level and in Kansas.

I still find this troubling on the point of who is going to administrate this endeavor! The Coach cannot, I assume most AD's will not (I wouldn’t) we know most kids will find this degrading. So who Egg? Does the expense of a Doctor or Nurse fall on the program? Also how do you manage the time it will take to have somebody present for all possible weigh-ins up to certification? The preseason Alpha weight I don't see an issue with from a time perspective. The certification seems to me like a nightmare. Maybe we should just do a better job educating our wrestlers about the right way to manage their weight!

Maybe one of the college guys will give us a clue on how it works at their level?

As I said in my earlier post, Red, I will check urine if needed and necessary.

This is not that big of a deal from an administration stand point. In regards to certification the vast majority of wrestlers will continue to certify at or close to the Jan. 12 date. Some communication between coaches and their A.D.s will be helpful and the process of home certifications wil not be cumbersome.

Perhaps the administrative team in Norton is "different," in this regard but we do not see it as being a problem for us to check for hydration nor do we see this duty as being "beneath" us. Whether or not the wrestlers see it as "demeaning," I guess I do not know. But, in my opinion it is not any worse than standing naked in front of wrestlers and coaches you DON'T know in a competition site certification weigh-in.

Take a deep breath, it is going to be OK.

One other thing, if we HAD done a better job before now in educating our athletes about the right way to lose weight we wouldn't be looking at these rule changes, not only in Kansas but across the nation.

Egg... If I recall right you were involved in the initial draft of these new rules (I maybe wrong) I appreciate your comments but we all know that Norton is the wrestling Mecca of the world! And will go to any extent to accommodate their wrestlers. Not so in other parts of the state. I'm sure if you ask a Norton wrestling cheerleader to perform this function they would gladly step up to the plate and contribute what ever was necessary. I would be more than happy to perform this function for the Manhattan team. But I don't see that the majority of the schools will follow these new rules to the letter! I hope I’m wrong, look at the way some schools seem to struggle with legitimate home weigh-ins. How many kids come out the second day at State 20 lbs. bigger than they were the first day! This is when we should do our hydration testing. We will make it work... I just wish there was an easier way. I believe if “everyone” takes this seriously, then all will be good!

Someone help me out on this because this is all still new to me. Truth is that Nathan has never really done what I consider a hard cut until Fargo this year. A special thanks to TC Dantzler and especially Eric Akin who helped tremendously with the process of what to do once you get to weight.

Here is my question. I honest to God don't know if Nathan has ever been more than 7% body fat. I also know there is a difference between start of the week weight and end of the week weight. Truth is, that we found out a kid can cut some, do it safely, and maintain strength and everything else that goes with it. Obviously, there are limits to that, and they will be different for each kid.

Here is my question though, exactly how do these new rules affect a kid with already very low body fat due to a large percentage of muscle mass, and being small on top of that. I will also say, the answer is not in saying for the kid to eat more. My son eats like a horse and has a very high metabolism rate as will any very active person. I am not being critical of the rules, it is just after reading them, and reading them, and then talking to kids in states where they used the rules this year, I still am not clear as to what to expect. My understanding is, you will need a doctor’s note saying the weight is a safe weight for the kid. I assume the parents pay for that doctors visit and physical if that is the case.

Red,

Yes, I have been a member, from the "get-go" of the committee which is developing these rules . Do I like the fact that we are imposing more rules on a sport that already has more rules to live by than any other KSHSAA sanctioned sport (skin forms, waivers for weightloss, hair length, finger nails, certification, blood clean-up etc. etc.)? HECK NO! (BTW--the KSHSAA REALLY SHOULD have rules on checking for finger nail length for FB & BB players!!!!!!!!! )

In my estimation what is now driving the train in regards to these rules is a sincere belief that some of our athletes are engaing in very dangerous weight loss practices--often with the encouragment, at worst, or benign disinterest, at best, of coaches and parents. Secondly is the concern that when there are rules developed by National Experts (such as those who compose the NFHS Medical and Rules Committees) and we choose not to follow them--what is our legal and legitimate defense if there was a tragic accident? "We in Kansas know more about these things than the nationally recognized experts?" I don't think that will go very far--perhaps Richard can shed some legal light on this as to whether or not this would be a defensible position to take.

I truly believe the rule changes that are being proposed draw the best fitting line which connects (a) giving more protection to the health of our athletes; (b) being able to defend ourselves legally in the event that it is necessary and (c) avoiding an excessive burden of documentation for our coaches and administrators.

It may be, in all likelihood, that there will be training available for persons such as yourselves so as to be "certified" to help with this process.

You know, in some respects this situation is very much like McDoanlds being sued because they serve hot coffee; in that the legal responsibility to protect people who are voluntarily availing themselves of an institution rests with the institution. But, that is a topic for another thread.

Mike -

I don't see how being small or having a low body fat or being heavily muscled will make a difference. Nathan will go in on the first day of practice and pee in a cup. The AD (or someone he assigns) will dip a strip in the cup and it will show if Nate is hydrated enough. If he isn't then he will have to drink some water and retest up until he becomes hydrated. Once he is hydrated then he can step on the scale and get his prelimniary weight. I don't beleive that a heavily muscled small person with low body fat would naturally walk around with a hydration that is lower than someone else.

I am not saying a like the rule. There seems to be a lot to desire in terms of how the hydration test will be implemented. But just like now, you will only be as good as the AD who runs the testing.

Mr. Furches,

I think you are talking about the body fat testing that will not begin next year. The only new rule change for the 06-07 season is the hydration testing at the Alpha weigh in and again at certification. The body fat testing will be implemented in the 07-08 school year, and I don't think all of the details have been worked out yet, but I may be wrong. I assume there will be some appeals process for cases like this, I hope it is process of getting a doctor's consent (which is already the case if a wrestler wants to lose more than 10% of their body weight, and the parents of the athlete bear that cost now).

The rules being devloped and implemented are not the same as the NFHS rules. They are being developed by people involved in Kansas wrestling to try to best fit the needs of Kansas wrestlers, so there may be significant differences between what we will be doing as opposed to those in other states.

Hope this helps, but it probably didn't!

Helps some guys, thanks for the response.

I recall Dan Gable claim, that he never passed a hydration test in his life. That might be a bit of a stretch but I also imagine that it will be as much of a factor for the bigger guys.

The rule changes as being proposed for 2006-07 (hydration) and which are still under development for 2007-08 (body fat testing) will closely mirror the NFHS rules in those two areas.

Where the committee has decided to "go on our own" is in the areas(a) of shoulder-to-shoulder weigh-ins (we were adamant that our home site arrangement be maintained) and (b) having a descent plan to govern a wrestler's total amount of weight loss. The NFHS says a plan must be in place to monitor a wrestler's weight so they lose no more than 1.5% of their body weight per week. This would be administrative nightmare and paper jungle and in the long run, unfair. How many kids (or adults for that matter) are so in tune with their bodies that they can "dial in" a 1.5% weight loss--no more and no less. Is this a Saturday to Saturday week? Is it Monday to Monday for some and Friday to Friday for others? Does it make a difference as to which weeks are heavy in competition and which may be light? If a kid gains some weight back is the 1.5% for the next week based on his new weight (yes) or his previous week's weight? (no) Etc,. Etc. Etc.

At this point the current Kansas rule of no more than 10% total weight loss and at least 1/2 of matches wrestled at weight for regional competition will be our "descent" plan. However, the 10% will be dependent upon a wrestler's body fat level. It may be that his alpha weight and body fat will not allow him to legally lose the full 10%. This is an area which has been discussed at great length and will continue to be a matter for discussion. It is in this area where the possibility of some sort of waiver process to exceed the 10% limit could come into play.

Mike Furches--CURRENTLY if a wrestler seeks the 10% waiver they must have a Doctor's signature and this cost is borne by the wrestler/his family. So if the new body fat rule contains a medical waiver provision, the responsibility for the cost of the waiver will be no different than it is currently.

All I know is stay off the Stress tab's and the off the wall vitamins... the will make your pee all kinds of weird colors.

Egg, I understand the committees concerns and appreciate them... but when you make rules people tend to break them or find ways around them. There must be some kind of consequences for disregard. Not everyone plays fair. What about enforcement? Thanks for all your efforts; I know your heart is in the right place!

Red,

You are right about that some medication and/or supplements will turn the color of urine dark and brackish, and therefore make it look like as though the athlete is dehydrated. This is why the "dip stick" can and should be utilized if there is ANY question as to the degree of coloration or the reason for it.

Those caught cheating will be dealt with as those who are caught cheating on weigh ins are dealt with.

Some people cheat. Is that a good reason not to do the right thing?

While your 'thank you" for the efforts of the committee is appreciated the comment that ". . . I know your heart is in the right place." sounds as though I am still wet behind the ears. FYI, I am 53+ years of age, have raised four children who have turned out to be A-1 people and have been dealing with other peoples' adolescents, and pre-adolescents, their parents, 7-12 athletes and coaches for 31, and beginning 32, years.
Membership on this committee was accepted with the full awareness that there would be no "holding of hands singing kum-by-yah around the wrestling campfire." Membership was accepted primarily to make sure that we did not give up home site weigh-ins and that the NFHS descent plan was not implemented. It was apparent to me that changes were coming regardless of what we wanted and I wanted to be able to be in a position to help keep the footprint of those changes as small on our athletes, coaches and administrators as possible.

Egg,

I never intended to insult your integrity… I personally know two of your four children and you’re absolutely right they are stand up people from good upbringing’s! I am also well aware of your education background, my comment was sincere. My intent was without malice!

Mark Miller

Mark,

Thank you for the affirmation and I apologize for having read something into your comment that was not there.

Greg Mann

As a coach at Schlagle High School we participated in the pilot program last
year. Maybe one of the biggest benefits was the school getting our program a
tanita scale.

As a coach most of my athletes look for me to decide what weight class they will
wrestle at. With the help of the tanita scale that measures body mass and body
fat % and the hydration test, a lot of the decision making was taken out of my
hands.

I know I have heard of several kids quitting wrestling because of cutting weight.
For some of us older wrestlers cutting weight is like a time honored tradition. I
believe one that should be handles with much care. Our athletes look up to us
coaches and many will do whatever the coach says. I truly believe this new system
will make a lot of the 'what weight should I wrestle at next year?' out of the
coaches hands.

I am glad to hear they KSHSAA got it right by pushing certification back. I have
called and complained about it several times. Moving certification up hurt our
team very bad the last few years.

For some unfounded reason some coaches where thinking lets get it done before
Christmas so the kids can eat... If that's your only reason for moving
certification up than we should certify before thanksgiving cuz that's the biggest
meal in my family...

The biggest problem I had with the December certification date was that even if u
done everything right... (EXAMPLE) u have a 144 pound kids who wants to wrestle
130. According to the 10% rule the lowest he could go without a medical release
is 129.6 (14.4 lbs.) So u are a few pounds within the guidelines so u lose the
1.5% per week (2.16lbs) it would take 8 weeks.
Point is if we admit that weight loss is part of the sport then we should design a system where our kids can follow the guidelines without being penalized. Moving the certification back to January gives kids 3 more weeks to get down to weight in a much safer way and kids can actually follow the 1.5% weight loss per week guideline and make it to weight before certification.

Our team last season had a good size group of freshman and I was worried about
the perceptions they might have when they were told they would have to give do a
urine test. But the whole group responded well and there was not a problem with
it at all.

It is best if u do the alpha weigh in before the season starts because since the
alpha weigh in is the entire time it can be time consuming. I know it took us
about an hour to go 25 kids but we also did other paperwork that also needed to
be done like check physicals, insurance etc...

When we conducted the urine test it maybe took about 10 seconds per wrestler. Its
just a matter of comparing the urine color to the color on the chart. It is a lot
less of a hassle then doing body fat percents, water submersions, skin folds etc...

As far as educating athletes.. I think through the test they get a better
understand that just because they are drinking fluids wont mean they are PROPERLY
hydrated. I guess u can keep in mind that we do work with kids and they u can
educate them all u want. To some degree some of them will refuse to lose weight
and some of them will lose all the weight they can to be in that lower weight
class. I just believe that overall this will help guide wrestlers and coaches
into putting more thought into how am I going to get in the right weight class for
me.

Excuse any typos

A Great product to keep your wrestlers hydrated is Advocares rehydrate. My son has taken this and had no problem maintaing a hydration test. He is 6ft and wrestles 130. I would not allow him to be there if he did not pass the rehydration test at home.

This is my post I meant to use my id but my sons was opened.
A Great product to keep your wrestlers hydrated is Advocares rehydrate. My son has taken this and had no problem maintaing a hydration test. He is 6ft and wrestles 130. I would not allow him to be there if he did not pass the rehydration test at home.

i think theyre tryin to make us bigger in the smaller classes and bigger classes 285 might turn to 300 in a few years but i guess there isnt any harm in that

Egg, and others

I have some questions, comments, etc. on all of this. Egg, With you being involved in the comittee you may be able to answer help out with some of thim

First, I will say I am for the weight program. We too purchased a Tanita scale that does the hydration, mass, body fat %, etc. We were not a pilot program, but I knew it would help us determine the proper weights for our kids. We also have a team meating where I actualy educate them on nutrition, body fat, hydration, diets, etc. Basically I educate them on how to MANAGE, their weight properly. I hardly even use the term weight loss, especially with parents. I use the term "weight management". Believe it or not it helps when talking to parents, especially newly involved ones. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is because I am not against it an intedend no offense.

First, the one the I don't understand, and probably the only negative in terms of the committee, is the comment on legal protection. I agree 100% that it will help protect from legal action, but you mentioned the fact that since the national federation has pushed the rule we would be liable if we don't follow. If we don't following the third component of the recommendation in terms of rate of decent, are we still open for law suit. I don't really see how we can implent parts of it and not all of it and be protected. There is no doubt we need a policy weather it be our own or the National Federation, but I don't see how the fact the National Federation implenments the policy help protect us if we don't coform to it 100%. Regardless I don't see there being much of a legal issue as long as something is in place.

In terms of the 10% rule, I think this is something the committee really needs to look at. I a minimum body fat of 7% wy the 10% restriction. The fact that the National Federation allows a 1.5% decent, that allow for about an 18% reduction over the course of 12 week leading up to regionals from the first day of practice. I'm not saying we need the rate of decent, my guess is the 10% is because that is what was already implemented, but that shouldn't keep it from being revisitied, for some kids it could be just a touch low. on the other side, 18% is probably to high. I doubt the national federation a total percent in mind when implementing the rule. My GUESS is the 1.5% is becuase the average person can only loose about 1.5% of a fat mass in a weeks time without tapping into muscle weight, water weight, etc. So loosing 1.5% allows a person weight loss to truly be fat mass.

I think changing the certification date was a great thing! I never could understand how if the intention of a weight program was to reduce rapid weight loss then why would you have such an early certification weight. All that does is add to the problem. Having the January date is a good thing. As far it being after Christmas, no big deal. If someone is waiting till the last day, regardless of the date, till the last day, it's their own fault if they don't make it. HOWEVER, in 2008 when the full program is implemented body fat, hydration, etc. I don't see the point of a certification day at all. If so in my opinion it shouldn't be till the end of the year. The reason for that is because dehydration or rehydration can be done relatively fast. Rehydration can occur at a rat of about 2 pounds of water per hour. However, correct fat mass loss takes much more time.

Once the certification is in place, fully, what will happen to the 1/2 and 1/2 rule???? I hope they get rid of it. I don't see the poinnt in having two types of certification policy. If the intention is for a person to reduce body fat in order to make weight and maintain hydration, it will often take time. The 1/2 and 1/2 reduces the amount of time a person has to properly loose weight.


I am curious as to why we even have home site weigh-ins????? I don't really get it. I was told it was because the smaller schools longer distances to drive. I also heard it was for the bennefit of the kids so the wouldn't have to "starve" all. I don't know if any are true but both don't seem real valid. I can see a home site certification, but obviously the schools are going to the facilites for wrestling, which is the same place they are weighing in at home for..... Also, why does the KSHSAA take concern in distance and comfort for some things but not others.


Somebody made a point of the NCAA not being a good reference for weight loss. That's rediculous...... The most knowledgable people anymore are the D1 coaches as many have wrestled at the elite level and are very in tune to their nutrition habits. Especially in todays coaching world. Ten year ago maybe not, but they are now. Also to use the the point that they have had wrestlers die which makes them not a good source is rediculous. I would bet more football players die of dehydration every year, and probably have for a long long time, yet none of them are peeing in cups. Three wrestlers died in a short span back around '98 don't remember the exact date. Those are the only cases I have heard or read about in more than 10 years. Football players die every year. Besides, I thought they found legal body building suplements in them which may have contributed. Don't know that for sure though.

in defense for egg, the reference that some people witll try to cheat an beat the system which may pose some issues of unfairness to everyone else doesn't hold water. That's like saying there are people who steal stuff and don't get caught so we shouldn't make it illegal. Just because people are going to break the rules doesn't mean you shouldn't make the rules.

As far as the committee you aren't going to make everyone happy, so I wouldn't worry to much about pacifying anyone, but there is probably a lot of valuable info thay can be inputed at times. Regardless, what you guys are doing is a good thing, and it is NOT going to be as big of a hassel as people are thinking. If people are to lazy to take a little extra time to implement the program they are to lazy to be coaching. Also, it isn't like the tools needed are that expensive.

The 10% rules is that no wrestler shall lose more than 10% of his body weight without a medical release... I dont believe there is a rule stating that a wretstler cant be under 10% body fat... Correct me if I'm wrong but its been this way for a while

Travius, you are correct. The 10% refers to total weight loss; the boy fat minimum for the Nat'l Federation and as is being considered for Kansas is 7%.

Keeping the 10% rule is why we think our descent plan is (a) easier to govern than the NHSF rule and (b) more stringent than the
Nat'l Federation (10% max weight loss vs 18% for the NF).

Do they still get the 2lbs after certifacation?

There are a lot of coaches in Iowa who'd give a million dollars to use the Kansas rules.

The new Iowa rules (which are pretty much the NFHS rules) have there interesting points:

1 — The Friday before the first practice, the kids have to:
A: weigh-in to establish their starting weight,
B: get their body fat checked (calipers) to help determine their body fat and what their weight would be at seven percent body fat
C: Do a urine test, that will by comparison to a color chart, determine whether or not a kid is hydrated enough. If not, the kid must wait a minimum of 24 hours before testing again
(NOTE: COACHES CAN'T BE PRESENT FOR THE TESTING)

2 — Once the health care professional doing the body fat testing has his figures, they go to the IHSAA, which will prepare a chart for EVERY WRESTLER. This chart will list a week-by-week breakdown of what a kid can weigh between. For example, if a kid starts at 150 pounds, the first week of practice, the MOST he can cut is 1.5 percent of 150 pounds, or 2.25 pounds. That makes his second week weight 147.75, which means he can lose 2.22 pounds that week, and so forth.

3 — Now, here's a little curve ball. Let's say it's the week of the first meet and this kid that is going from 150 to 135 is down to 137 the night before the meet. But, according to his chart, he's supposed to weigh 143.35. What weight does he wrestle? 145.
No matter what his body says, the chart is official. And since Iowa does shoulder-to-shoulder weigh-ins, the charts must be available at any moment to be checked.

4 — There is no minimum weigh-in rule, but kids will get their two pounds after Jan. 12, provided they've made their certified weight. Otherwise no dice. And, if takes until weigh-ins for Sectionals to reach that weight, well, OK. That's for the roly-poly kids that come in at 34 percent body fat.

5 — If at some point in the season a kid exceeds what he is supposed to weight for that week, this his chart shifts down an line and he adds a week to the wait before he can weigh his certified weight.

It's going to be a pain in the butt. A huge pain in the butt. Coaches will have to carry this big book with each kid's chart and not matter what happens, their weight for the week is set.

Believe me, the Kansas rules may seem excessive, but it could be worse.

Could someone in the know tell me how the hydration test process works, from start to finish?
does each high school have to hire a certified health professional? that could get expensive.
I know my old high school our ad was a woman, so she can't be watching the kids pee, but someone better make sure each kid actually pees in the cup.
Cuz if I knew I wouldn't pass the test, but I knew I could get away with it, I bet I'd have Joe Hydrate **** in my cup while all the wrestlers were in the bathroom, and can the school really be held accountable for that?
Those are my concerns

Add water to the cup after you pee in it works too.

Most schools have a school nurse that — at least in Iowa — is authorized to conduct the tests. School administrators are to me in the area to help supervise. We have a PA that volunteers to conduct all of our testing for us.

My biggest problem with the rule is that I can't figure out what was so wrong with what we were doing before. In seven years in Kansas I never saw a thing wrong with the system there. And while it was more restrictive, the system the last two years in Iowa was fine. This system is just a pain and there really isn't a logical reason for it.

Oh well....

Geez, Aaron, your most recent contribution to this discussion is disappointing. For some reason I expected you to offer more, and better, than this.

Now, I don't know why you would expect that.

I know of many wrestlers at many schools that did it in college, and then cut like crazy. I myself just drank a gallon of water or close to it for most of a morning prior to the hydration testing.

I think if the hydration is accurate to many in HS won't be able to cut do to going from school to practice unless they are allowed to have water bottles in class all day.

Sportsfan02, I don't know what your problem is, but if you have a beef with me then leave your real name.

My problem is the same as Egg's. I don't know enough about the mechanics of hydration testing to know if it is even possible to cheat. But, to come on here and attempt to tell high schoolers how to do so is inexcuseable! We already have enough wrestlers and parents reading and responding to this thread in fear of the changes, we don't need to instruct them on how to cheat the test.

Mr Sweazy, as one who has appreciated your posts at times I have to agree with Sportsfan02 on this one. I wonder what good it is to encourage a kid to cheat on the rules. If you encourage them to cheat on one set of rules, why not another set of rules. There are serious concerns that administrators and others would have to say about that.

Another question here, didn't you officiate last year? I have to ask what kind of a reputation this builds for an official.

I am another that has issues with the hydration testing, I am also one that says we need to follow the rules, not encourage cheating on the rules, or the intent of what the rules are for.

The other thing, is what about the wrestler that attempts to cheat the rule, then gets caught. Will you take responsibility of what happens to them if they get caught implimenting the principle that you have promoted here.

In the past you have done positive things for wrestling. I just don't think this is one of them.

I don't think you guys should be calling aaron out like that. I originally posted the comment on how to cheat, so I guess that's my fault. I think you got the wrong idea, though, I just wanted to know that the process of the test required administrators to make sure the kids actually peed in the cup, like they would in a drug test. If the test was run rught and administrators watched the kids pee, there is no way for the kids to cheat.
But if the test is not administered properly then you bet kids will cheat. That's all I was trying to say, and I'm pretty sure that's what Aaron meant to.

Neither Andy or Aaron should be called out for this. When this plan was presented to Iowa coaches at our rules meetings last year, many of the same questions were being asked. And — in all honesty — part of the reason that the coaches aren't allowed in the room while the testing is going on is to make sure there is less danger of cheating (which personally I found kind of insulting).

The NFHS has created what I really think is going to be an unmanagable monster. Every time you make rules more restrictive you create a danger of breaking those rules. This has taken the restrictive to a new and absurd high. Andy and Aaron both asked very valid questions, and a venture a guess that they are the same questions a lot of people will ask.

This was my point in an earlier post! Rules are only as good as the people that play by them! How many of you drive down I-70 at 70 MPH? Or is it 75 because the cops won’t stop me for 5 extra miles over! How many of you have heard “Click it or ticket” Don’t locks only keep honest people out! And I know that “that this doesn’t make it right” but if you mandate and not educate… then you have lost the purpose of the whole program!

Andy your going to have to play by the rule now that your in college... I'm sure some senior will guide you through it!

Just curious if the rest of or do all sports have to follow these hydration test for I think they should wrestling is just going to price ourselves out of the water all together just can't understand all the issues here and I know they don't it was just a rhetorical question.

My post directed to Aaron states exactly what I meant regarding his post encouraging athletes to cheat on the hydration test.

What most of us have to come to grips with is that these rule changes are not unique to Kansas, though Kansas is taking a unique look at the descent plan. Hydration testing and fat testing will be with us in some form or fashion for the forseeable future--until the next weight loss crisis requires rule changes and/or new rules.

Does the board that made this test have the ability to make changes if some unforseen problems come up? Because if there are problems thats when youll find people trying to find a way to cheat.

Certainly; if not this specific committee, then another could be empaneled. Also, don't forget that once new rules are in place, suggestions for procedural changes can come from coaches' through their association. Case in point--the alpha weight. This procedure came about as the direct result of a suggestion made at a 3-2-1A regional coaches' meeting. There is a specific procedure to be followed; certainly one of our Kansas coaches who is involved with the coach's association can provide the details.

wait... so do we have to do this test before every single practice and meet or is it just a once in a while kinda thing?

The urine test (at least in Iowa) is only administered prior making alpha weight.

There will be two hydration tests required in Kansas beginning with this wrestling season ('06-'07): The first will be prior to alpha and the second prior to certification.

The wrestler must be hydrated in order to have an alpha weight recorded and he/she must also be hydrated at their certified weight.

Hydration testing more than these two are not required.

Egg:

That makes sense. Our kids get body-fat tested the same time they take their hydration test. If they are hydrated enough at seven percent body fat, that's all they need.

Since you guys still do intelligent weight management (as opposed to what the rest of us poor saps do) the second hydration test before certification does make sense.

KSHSAA catches hell for a lot of things, but I have to give them their props for this one. Someone posted that the more restrictive a situation becomes, the more that cheating will occur. I couldn't agree more. This is a common sense approach to the problem.

What methods of hydration testing will be accepted. There are three or four different methods that one can test the hydration level of an individual. Which ones will we have to use. There are expensive and inexpensive means. Will all be allowed?

lookwhosback: It is currently the plan that Kansas will implement fat testing at alpha beginning with the 07-08 season.

takedown121: The method that will be used for checking hydration in neither expensive or difficult.

Color charts showing levels of specific gravity will be distributed by the KSHSAA to all schools who wrestle. Additional copies will be available for purchase for a nominal fee. Urine, in a clear cup will be placed on a white sheet of paper next to the color chart. If the urine is obviously in the "OK" range of colors, the wrestler is declared to be hydrated. If it is difficult to determine whether or not the color is sufficent to establish hydration a "dip stick" will then be used. These will be simple "pass, fail" sticks; that is, they turn one color and it means hydrated and if it turns another color it means not hydrated (I am not sure what those colors are). As vitamins, supplements, etc. can turn urine darker a wrestler should let the evaluator know they are taking them so a dip stick could then be used.

According to the doctor on the KSHSAA committee, dip sticks of the type being described cost about 50 cents each.

I'm joining this topic a little late but...

1) Wrestlers wear very tight clothes.
2) Wrestlers come into very close contact with other sweaty men.
3) Wrestlers are naked frequently for showers, weigh-ins, frisbee, etc.
4) Wrestlers contract skin diseases.
5) Wrestlers bleed frequently (just ask Chase Verdorn, who finished 2nd in the nation and suffered a bloody nose at the hands of one Prant Garker).
6) Wrestlers now will have to pee in cups and carry them around in order to compete.

No wonder we get so many chicks.

Is the "we" you referred to including yourself, or are you basing this statement on seeing that others, especially former coaches you have had, have dated/married attractive women?

Prant, There is no requirement that you carry the cup OUTSIDE the locker room! Could this be be a MAJOR reason for your inability to impress the girls?
Coach Twink--what all did you NOT teach this boy?

Egg:

Welcome to our world. Just hang in there with the home morning weigh-ins — you remain the last bastion of civilization!

Iowa just released their official rules for weight control rules for this year. Kansans, take heart — yours could be worse.

Here's the link:

http://www.iahsaa.org/Body_Comp_Rule.htm

Where the Kansas and Iowa plan will differ, greatly, is the descent component. Alan Beste, the Iowa High School Activities Association counterpart to our KSHSAA Rick Bowden, has set in on most of the Kansas Weight Control Committee meetings. He has also been very helpful and enlightening due to Iowa's long experience in using hydration and fat testing. I think I can safely say that he is distressed about the amount of work the descent plan is going to cause for the Iowa coaches.

After speaking to a close personal tie… this the way the college boys do it:

1. No caffeine products what so ever for three days prior to testing (coffee, tea or the killer Red Bull) continue to drink nothing but water!
2. No supplements what so ever for 3 days prior to testing
3. Be two to three pounds under the weight you want to test at Alpha or certification.
4. Drink at least two litters of water within 4 hour of testing.
5. Piece of cake on the hydration tests… no problems or no worries.

And I don’t mind the decent plan either, after fat testing they are given a print out of exactly what they can weigh on any give day of the season. With a minimum weight to top it all off. You would be surprised how weight they will let you lose depending on your body composition. The neat thing is that it is all mapped out for the duration of the season. You can only certify on the date it says your weight can be there. Fully hydrated!

I sent an email to "Egg" (i.e. Gregg Mann) to make sure I understood the hydration testing. With wrestling season approaching we thought it would be helpful to put the questions I asked and Mr. Mann's answers on the talk forum. Here it is:

Mr. Mann – I was reading your comments on the wrestling forum about hydration. Soon teams will start having a preseason meetings with their wrestlers and parents. I want to be able to clearly explain the new hydration test if asked. Would you please check the following to make sure it is correct?

1. On the first day of practice wrestlers will give a sample of their urine. It will be examined next to a color chart. If clear enough then the wrestler will be deemed “hydrated” and allowed to weigh in to get a base weight. If not clear enough then a dip strip will be placed in the urine to see if other factors colored the urine and not dehyration. If the dip strip shows hydration then the wrestler may weigh in. If the urine doesn’t pass the dip strip then the wrestler must drink some fluid and submit another urine sample until the urine passes the hydration test. Once this is done he may weigh in?

"This is correct. It is very important to note that the did stick will NOT indicate what is in the urine, only if the urine is composed of a high enough level of water."

2. Once this “hydrated weight” is established then the rules are the same as always about how much weight a wrestler can lose (no more than 10% of the hydrated weight unless medically cleared)?

"For 2006-07 this is correct. In 2007-08 there will be a fat test component added to the hydration test. We hope that the 10% rule can be “fitted” to the fat test component—but that is also still being worked on."

3. Certification of weight will take place on or before January 12th. This must also be a “hydrated weight” as described in 1 above?

"Correct. There was one change made by the KSHSAA Exec council from the committees original proposal. The committee had recommended that certification could take place at any time prior to January 12, that it did not have to be at a competition weigh-in. The Exec committee did not approve this recommendation and certification must occur at a competition weigh-in, but it can be a home weigh-in; that is, the opposing team(s) need not be in attendance."

4. Once certificatio weight is established there will be no more hydrated weigh ins (ex: a state)?

"Correct."

Mr. Mann also added: "The new KSHSAA wrestling manuals should be out soon and it will contain the hydration plan."

Seems to me that a descent plan is not needed at all if:

(a) a wrestler's minimum weight is established based on a hydrated fat test;
and
(b) the certified weight must be a hydrated weight.

It should not make any difference if a wrestler is a pound too heavy or too light on any specific day.

Egg is spelled with two g's, but Greg Mann spells his name with one!

Like Red's advice on fluids to avoid. Soda pop needs to be added to the list of fluids with caffiene to avoid. Don't like the idea of losing more weight than is necessary for alpha, but know that this will be done so fluid can be added, if necessary, to get hydrated.

If wrestler can stay away from caffiene for three days, maybe they should try to stay away ALL season. They will be amazed at how much better they feel.

Thanks for including soda pop! My suggestion is to stay on strictly water prior to the test. This is what they (college guys) were advised by the team physician. The decent plan is based on they can certify on any given day up to qualifiers. Like most guys they will challenge all the way through the season for varsity time at the given weight for that prematch weigh in. They are trying to establish what weights that they can wrestle all season from start to finish. You may do time at higher weight for one set of duals then a lower weight a couple of weeks down the road. The NCAA approves the print out.

I would have to agree with Egg on the fact for a HS kid to be under his normal alpha weight by a couple pounds would be self-defeating based on the 10% rule. If your really fat then most physicians will release you any way if you have the weight to lose. To the older guys it’s all a numbers game.

updated Q&A

I sent an email to "Egg" (i.e. Gregg Mann) to make sure I understood the hydration testing. With wrestling season approaching we thought it would be helpful to put the questions I asked and Mr. Mann's answers on the talk forum. Here it is:

Mr. Mann – I was reading your comments on the wrestling forum about hydration. Soon teams will start having a preseason meetings with their wrestlers and parents. I want to be able to clearly explain the new hydration test if asked. Would you please check the following to make sure it is correct?

1. On the first day of practice wrestlers will give a sample of their urine. It will be examined next to a color chart. If clear enough then the wrestler will be deemed “hydrated” and allowed to weigh in to get a base weight. If not clear enough then a dip strip will be placed in the urine to see if other factors colored the urine and not dehyration. If the dip strip shows hydration then the wrestler may weigh in. If the urine doesn’t pass the dip strip then the wrestler must drink some fluid and submit another urine sample until the urine passes the hydration test. Once this is done he may weigh in?

"This is correct. It is very important to note that the dip stick will NOT indicate what is in the urine, only if the urine is composed of a high enough level of water."

Hydration/alpha weigh-in will be allowed during the buffer week, prior to the start of wrestling season; this is so practice time does not have to be used.

An athlete must have a hydrated alpha weight before they are allowed to practice.

2. Once this “hydrated weight” is established then the rules are the same as always about how much weight a wrestler can lose (no more than 10% of the hydrated weight unless medically cleared)?

"For 2006-07 this is correct. In 2007-08 there will be a fat test component added to the hydration test. We hope that the 10% rule can be “fitted” to the fat test component—but that is also still being worked on."

3. Certification of weight will take place on or before January 12th. This must also be a “hydrated weight” as described in 1 above?

"Correct. There was one change made by the KSHSAA Exec council from the committees original proposal. The committee had recommended that certification could take place at any time prior to January 12, that it did not have to be at a competition weigh-in. The Exec committee did not approve this recommendation and certification must occur at a competition weigh-in, but it can be a home weigh-in; that is, the opposing team(s) need not be in attendance."

4. Once certificatio weight is established there will be no more hydrated weigh ins (ex: a state)?

"Correct."

Mr. Mann also added: "The new KSHSAA wrestling manuals should be out soon and it will contain the hydration plan."

Egg:

When Alan Beste presented this plan to us at rules meetings in Iowa last year, it was obvious he'd have rather been in a room full of snarling tigers than with a bunch of ticked off high school wrestling coaches. The poor guy was just the messenger for something I really don't think he agrees with.

Maybe this was covered and I missed it, but do the wrestlers get the extra 2lbs after certifacation or after the Jan 12 date, or is the 2lbs allowance a thing of the past?

There will still be a 2 lb. growth allowance after Jan 12.

The following was contained in the Minutes of the KSHSAA Executive Board Meeting held on Tuesday, September 12 & Wednesday, September 13. Not all of the minutes have been reproduced here, only that portion dealing with the implementation of the hydration assessment.

"Assistant Executive Director Rick Bowden provided Executive Board Members with a report and recommendations from the spring meeting of the KSHSAA Wrestling Study Committee. . . Following Mr. Bowden's presentation and additional discussion the Board voted unanimously to adopt the following components of a weight management plan for the 2006-07 senior high wrestling season:

1. All wrestlers must pass a hydration assessment before being allowed to establish their baseline weight (alpha weight) prior to being permitted to practice with the team.

2. All wrestlers must pass a hydration assessment when establishing their certification weight. Certification weigh-ins will only be permitted during a weigh-in for a competition.

3. All wrestlers must complete weight certification no later than Friday, January 12, 2007. Wrestlers not certifying by that date become ineligible for further competitions.

The KSHSAA will purchase materials and assemble hydration assessment kits for each member senior high school competing in wrestling. Kits will contain sample collection cups, color charts and specific instructions for school personnel to conduct proper hydration assessments. Schools may also use refractometers if they are available.

In addition to hydration assessment materials, KSHSAA staff is working . . . to develop new information on proper nutrition for young athletes who are involved in weight control and weight loss. All wrestling schools must give increased attention to this important aspect of the overall weight management program."

Egg were you a party to why the KSHSAA did not follow the recommendations of the committee to allow certification any time and not only for a “competition weigh-in”.
This could pose some problems trying to get out of the building on time on a Saturday morning or even having a JV kid ready to go if somebody doesn’t make hydrated weight.

Red, I was not at the exec meeting so cannot give you the "without a doubt" reason as to why the committee made a change in that portion of the recommendation. However, it is my understanding that the Exec Board saw the "any time" provision as being administratively burdensome.

Does anyone know if the Kansas rules are going to include the 1.5% descent plan?

I understand the reasoning behind it and I am not totally against it (other than the amount of paperwork it will create) but I think it might be a little unfair to the heavyweights. If I am reading the rule correctly, It would take a 285 lb wrestler about 6-7 weeks to become eligible to wrestle if they weighed in at their max alpha weight. Any other wrestler can simply wrestle up a weight class and still be allowed to participate, but this is obviously not the case for the heavyweights. Has there been any discussion about this?

MC Delta T: Kansas has NO plans to adopt the 1.5% descent plan. At this time our current 10% weight loss rule will be our descent plan. When fat testing is added to the mix in 2007-08 we hope to be able to continue the use of the 10% rule; no doubt will require some modifications. That is to be worked on this year.

Thanks for the info Egg.

First of all the new forum look is weird!

Here is some intresting reading and concept to hydration testing.

http://www.nhsca.com/sports_wrestling.php

Mat side Weigh-in

by Tony DiGiovanni, Head Wrestling Coach, Solon High School, Solon, OH (27 year head coach).



This commentary is in support of a simple mat side weigh-in which would absolutely ensure the safety of all competitors. It has proven to be impossible for wrestling*s governing bodies to eliminate dehydration. It still occurs at every level, including the NCAA, even after installing hydration testing.



However, the National Federation Rules Committee can eliminate re-hydration by installing a mat side weigh-in. This procedure would render dehydration useless because you cannot wrestle dehydrated unless you have time to re-hydrate.



In the mid 1990s, amateur wrestling sustained a blow that threatened its very existence. The tragic fatalities of three college wrestlers shook the wrestling community and focused all eyes on the sport of wrestling rather than the circumstances that caused the unfortunate events. Wrestling, the world*s oldest sport, had never sustained a weight related death before these incidents. What went wrong?

It was extreme dehydration, linked with creatine use, combined with 24 hour weigh-ins, and only one weigh-in per weekend that allowed such a harmful abuse to occur.



The new hydration and body composition procedures are an administrative and logistical nightmare. It is costly, time consuming and rife with corruption and deceit at every level. At the core of this situation is the traditional belief among the wrestling community that it is not cheating as long as you make weight.

The only truly safe, fair and immediately effective system is to instate mat side weigh-ins. The key to its effectiveness is not only its simplicity, but its ability to eliminate all the *methods* used currently in the college programs at the start of the season to fool the test/testers in order to drop another weight class. More importantly, mat side weigh-ins will also eliminate the weekly bouncing of extreme weight that still occurs within the current NCAA system.



With a mat side weigh-in, athletes will police themselves. Even small amounts of dehydration or weight control abuse will dramatically reduce their ability to perform. This is the ultimate correction for our sport. Wrestlers would consistently develop and maintain more healthy dietary habits throughout the season as well as throughout the year.



The one hour weigh-in rule has proven to be an effective method to protect kids but we know that a significant amount of re-hydration can occur in that one or more hours before their individual match. Mat side weigh-ins would eliminate all re-hydration and thereby eliminate any significant dehydration.

Problem solved. No need for a costly mandate requiring state officials to spend inordinate amounts of their time managing an unpopular program that rewards cheating, deceitfulness and the knowledge and ability to beat the system.



If you question the truthfulness of this commentary, talk to 10 NCAA wrestlers and I can promise you at least 10 different ways to beat the system. In addition, almost all of them will tell you that the test is beaten by any wrestler who wants to beat it.



The key to mat side weigh-in is that the wrestler himself will not want to cut weight incorrectly. We all know that you cannot wrestle a match when you are dehydrated.



Please do not subject our nation*s high schools to this *knee jerk reaction* proposal. I would hate to see high school athletic and education department administrators use this additional program*s cost and associated administrative difficulties as a reason to eliminate our sport from small, rural, large, or inner-city high schools whose budgets are already stretched to the limit.



Let*s get the fans and parents more involved. Take the secrecy out of weigh-ins. The media, fans and family will no longer sit in the stands and swear that *that boy can*t weigh 103 lbs.!* They will see it with their own eyes.



Proposed mat side weigh-in (MW) vs. Current hydration testing (HT)



MW - Truly safe, no time to re-hydrate, eliminates dehydration, dramatically reduces weight bouncing...HT - Somewhat safe, allows re-hydration time, allows weekly weight bouncing



MW - Zero cheating...HT - Uncontrolled Cheating

MW - Easy "total" enforcement...HT - Impossible to uniformly and fairly enforce

MW - Fair to all participants...HT - Unfair because every trainer, doctor, coach, and site are different

MW - No paperwork...HT - Unmanageable paperwork

MW - Fan, media, and family involvement...HT - Public relations nightmare

MW - Cost effective, no cost...HT - Costly

MW - Promotes healthy dietary lifestyle...HT - Promotes some re-hydration, 1-3 hours

MW - Understandable and exciting addition...HT-Complicated and discourages involvement



It is my sincere conviction that the one hour weigh-in has demonstrated its ability to protect our high school athletes.



However, it is evident that some wrestling executives felt a compelling legal responsibility to do more, and it is clear their current dog and pony show is not designed to protect athletes from rampant, continued dehydration/ re-hydration.

Its purpose is to generate income at the expense of financially depleted high school programs and eliminate any potential legal responsibilities.



IF MORE MUST BE DONE, and I*m not sure that is the case, then let*s do the only right thing: For the SAFETY of the kids*For the SANITY of the coaches* and For the SECURITY of wrestling in the future.
MAT SIDE WEIGH-INS: AN OLD IDEA WHO'S TIME HAS COME!
If you support Mat side Weigh-in, please voice your opinion to your state wrestling coaches association, state high school athletic association, as well as posting your thoughts on wrestling forums and websites. We must take action and do what is best for high school wrestling, before it is too late.