Alcohol First Time Offense - Proper Punishment?

This is the Shawnee Mission policy that has been in effect for many years. What do you think about it? If you do not agree with it, explain why and what you think would be a better policy.

HECK NO ITS NOT RIGHT!!!! Let them do anything they want to. We all know that training rules are "old school" and really don't mean anything. We all know that school sports really have nothing to do with schools anymore and that it is no longer special to represent your school and community; no sacrifice is necessary--ESPECIALLY if it means giving up something YOU like to do! or, <GASP>, committing yourself to something bigger than yourself.

Sorry for the rant. Just get so tired of people agreeing to rules and then being appalled and outraged when they are actually enforced -- on them.

If the kid and parent signed the agreement then why is this even an issue? Extracurricular athletics are NOT a required part of the student's education.

I personally think, that is a little harsh but I do like the fact that it is defined very clearly what the consequences are. To be out for the season for a 1st offense that seems more like a 2nd offense, if everyone was not given a second chance where would alot of us be today. A first offense to me would be missing 2 competitions and not being allowed to practice during this time along with written and verbal apologies to coaches, teammates, school admins and parents. Nothing harder in life than admitting you were wrong and then facing the people and apologizing for it but it does make a much stronger person. This is my personal opinion.

I agree with Egg. What is the true message being sent here when someone signs a contract and then doesn't think the rules apply to them. It is better that kids learn the consequences of their decisions at this age than down the road when they have possibly a spouse or children counting on their decision making. If an athlete feels that he/she can not abide by the policies set forth by the team then obviously that athlete can choose not to participate and probably should not.

Check that Shawnee Mission policy. I think its 28 days out for the first offense if its in season (different punishment if not in season) and then out for the whole season on the second offense.

The policy as stated in the opening post on this topic is direct from the SMSD policy. The link is below:

http://www.smesports.com/04-05DrugAlcoholContractX.pdf

The 2nd chance everyone keeps talking about is in effect the next season. If you are in violation during the fall season, you can again participate during the winter season, etc. Even with a 2nd violation, you are out for 1 year, but can come back the following year. The only time there is no 2nd chance is is you are a Senior, you don't have a next year.

First of all I want to say that I take any alcohol violations serious at any age. My sister was killed in a head-on collision by a drunk driver two years ago so I don't take any of this lightly. I also belive if you read, understand and sign a school policy then you know the expectations and should live by those rules (or work to change them). In most cases, these policies are a "no win," either 'too strick' or 'not strick enough.' I believe this; in some cases taking sports away from kids for the entire (or rest) of the season may be the worst option. All you've essentially done is free up more time for them to have nothing to do and be bored which usually leads to trouble (kids + free time + boredom usually = trouble). There are so many busted-up families today that very often the only quality relationships and discipline these kids have is through their coaches and teammates. Does the punishment fit the crime? That can always be debated. Is a suspension the only punishment, or are there other consequences? One last thought, although extracurricular activies are indeed NOT a required part of an education, they are one of the most important educational elements. Sports and competition prepares you for many real life situations (i.e. goal setting, hard work, overcoming fears, failures, making and handling mistakes, relationships with coaches/bosses, relationship with teammates/co-workers, navigating the politics, etc). I could go on. Just want to share the point that I use what I learned through sports and competition everyday. With all appologies to my math teacher, I haven't had to bust out an algebra formula to solve a problem in a long time. Not trying to say anyone is right or wrong here. Greats posts on this topic for a good healthy exchange of ideas. In the long run, I believe we all want what's best for the kids. After all, they may very well be the ones making decisions on our well-being tomorrow.

Coach M.

DJWcoach,

I wish to extend my sympathy for the tragic loss of your sister. I know you and her will be in all our thoughts and prayers. Too many people have lost friends and loved ones due to tragic accidents involving alcohol. That is a major reason why this is such an important topic.

Red Storm and Egg, I definitely agree with you that a student should be held strictly accountable to an agreement that the student and/or parent signs such as the one the Shawnee Mission School District has made a requirement for their student athletes to be eligible to participate in extracurricular activities. There is no controversy on that issue in my opinion and I think most people would agree with that.

This topic is asking us whether this zero tolerance policy of Shawnee Mission on a first time alcohol use in season is proper punishment or does it go too far. My first thoughts on the issue were that it was probably too severe for a first offense. But I am starting to change my mind. The use of alcohol my a teenager is potentially a very severe problem that can have devasting and tragic consequences for the offender and others. We all know how vulnerable teenagers are to accidents in their early years of driving. We also know that when you add alcohol into the mix that the dangers of driving for a teenager increase significantly.

I believe a proper punishment along with being a good corrective instrument for the offender needs to be a good preventive tool for others. That is why I am changing my mind on this Shawnee Mission policy for first time alcohol users in season. Due to the potential serious consequences both to the offender and others, I think this a good policy because I do believe it can prevent many young people from using alcohol. I would like to see the KSHSAA consider this Shawnee Mission rule for all schools under its jurisdiction.

as stated in the derby topic i dont believe this policy really prevents kids from drinking. i think kids drink thinking they wont get caught. once they get caught, that can change their mindset they they are untouchable. but, if they are done for the season, what incentive do they have to stop? i am personally opposed to this policy because i do not think "dropping the hammer" on kids should be the goal of punishments. i think changing behavior should be the goal and i think a less severe penalty offering a second chance is better for everyone and is just as likely(if not more) to change the behavior of the student.

The above quote came from another thread that I choose to not contribute to anymore. They may be the best comments on the whole thing as of recent. I wonder how many beer commercials will we watch on television tonight, especially with the Super Bowl? How about inappropriate behavior on television period? How many of our kids wrestlers have observed their kids or HS coaches drinking at various events over the years? How many parents have double standards? How many coaches violate their own standards of decency placed on their athletes by smoking or using chew, or any other form of team policy? How many of us have double standard of one violation of team rules being more important than others?

Another person made comment about checking on their kids or at places like myspace, how many parents have done so? I agree. I am concerned, we as parents and educators are practicing a double standard and it is no wonder many of our youth get into trouble. It is easy to get on here and place blame at a team or individuals when in reality those making the posts may have issues on their own and couldn’t be a role model to a cockroach at the trash dump. It is easy to throw blame around, and sometimes that blame is deserved. But I wonder how much blame do we as adults deserve over letting things get so out of hand? I’m not taking a morality trip here, but I am saying I firmly believe we as parents, and adults in general deserve some of the blame because these types of things are as much our fault as it is the fault of the youth. For anyone who doesn’t believe this type of thing, as well as promiscuous sexual activity is not a rampant problem, you simply have no clue. Not only all sports are facing this problem, but so are all students. With the behavior of some of our parents, coaches, and whoever, is it any wonder? The truth is, while many of us got away with it in the past, we knew there was a price to pay, but even then, it wasn’t readily promoted on the WORLD WIDE NET. Far more are guilty of these behaviors today than yesterday. We really need to ask ourselves what we can do to better resolve these problems. While no offense is intended, the schools have never been the answer. The answer starts at home, and even sometimes with the best of intentions, kids still make mistakes. A good home cannot compete with the peer and societal pressure that exists. While it is easy to talk about what is best for a kid, maybe we need to first ask, what can we do as adults to provide a better image, and be more appropriate. Yes we are all hypocrites, but we can change our own behavior, then, and I believe only then, will we have a right to talk about what is best for the kids. Many of us say, don’t do as I do, do as I say. When we live this kind of life, and express these kinds of “truths,” we have to expect problems. When those problems occur, maybe we shouldn’t be pointing the finger nearly as much as looking into the mirror. I would hope, and I firmly believe that the kids parents and coaches in the recent events have asked themselves the questions about what more they could have done to prevent the problem. If they have answers to those questions, hopefully they apply them, an easy way out is a policy that has serious or severe consequences. I also hope that we don’t always take the easy way out, but take the way that is likely to help the athlete or youth. Personally, I know as a youth I did things I should have never done, I also know that it was very hard to get by with those things on a school sponsored event because of the strict supervision by parents and coaches that was provided.

Let me ask these questions. On school sponsored trips, either for club or athletic purposes, how many parents or coaches will on occasion have a beer? How many will smoke a cigarette? How many will have a dip, even while coaching? How many will make a sexual comment? I could go on, but you likely get my point.

Voice of Reason, good points. I am reminded of a time when our now college-age son was in high school. Fortunately, our home was the hang out for his group of friends. We encouraged this and were glad that we knew his friends and saw them come and go from the house. We live in Johnson County so it is not like the small town I grew up in where my parents knew everyone in the school. Anyway, his friends often asked our son why we (the parents) never went out of town with the point being that they could not have an unsupervised party at our home. We answered that we had already done our "traveling" before we had kids and now we were focused on being parents. In the 4 years of having a large group nearly every weekend, we had 2 instances of alcohol in the house. These were easy to catch because we do not drink and could smell it 3 rooms away. In one case, the drinker was of legal age, but was escorted out of our home because he had no business hanging out with teens and in the other case; I drove him home to his parents. After this, my sons told me their friends were too afraid to come to our house with alcohol. This is a good thing.

One rule of our house is that you always come in and tell the parents you are home, regardless of the time. My parents had this rule with me over forty years ago and it just seemed natural to follow when I had teens. My younger son asked why we had this rule and then commented that it was a good one because we would always know if they had been smoking or drinking by the smell.

I am not saying we have not made mistakes, but we try to avoid those we can anticipate. We have very few rules: wear your seatbelt, don't drink, smoke or do drugs; basic safety concerns. We try not to sweat the other lesser rebellious ways of teens.

wrestle007, LancerM who recently wrestled at a Shawnee Mission high school disagrees with you as to how effective this policy is at deterring Shawnee Mission athletes from drinking. Here is part of what he posted on that issue in another topic.



I agree with LancerM. I think that if wrestling is important enough for a high school athlete that signing this Shawnee Mission agreement before the season and knowing that it is going to be enforced would prevent a dedicated wrestler or athlete of any sport from using alcohol. I believe it has already had that effect for many athletes in the Shawnee Mission area over the years.

i know this isnt really the derby kids arent this discussion, but they are the easiest example, so i will use them. do you think those kids thought, "hey, lets have this party and drink, and if we get caught its not big deal cuz we'll only be suspended a week." or do you think they thought, "we won't get caught". kids who drink dont believe they will get caught. every high school signs an agreement of whatever their policy is. everyone is going to sign it, those who have made the personal decision not to drink would still not drink without the policy. for what its worth i grew up in the KC area(Olathe) and new many kids from the shawnee mission area. i can't say i saw much of a difference in drinking there then olathe, blue valley, kck, or anywhere else for that matter. no i don't have the experience there as LancerM, but i would assert those he knew that didn't drink still would not have drank had the policy said, two week suspension for example.

A lot of kids probably drink "thinking they won't get caught" or thinking administrators/coaches/parents "will just let it slide" because too many people do just let it slide. If every kid who got busted had the hammer dropped on them -- whether state championship contender or JV freshman -- then it'd make some kids think twice. Not all. But some.
I went to a high school where athletes in the school's biggest sport had slaps on the wrist for first and second offenses while other sports cracked the whip on their kids. Most of the time the kids in the spotlight sport drank and took their chances because they knew their punishment for getting caught was sitting out a half or not getting to start for a game or two.
And I agree, why have contracts if they are not upheld? What message does that send? For a quick example of this, look at who started on the offensive line for the Colts in the Super Bowl last night. Former SM Northwest player Ryan Lilja. Remember the uproar back when he was a senior in high school? He got busted for drinking a beer at a party. He'd signed a contract, as had his parents, so he was done for the season. His parents tried to sue to get him back on the team, but the court said "you signed a contract." Lilja lost his DI scholarship, played JUCO ball for two years, went to K-State and still made it to the NFL.
Punishing the kid doesn't ruin his life unless the kid lets it. And if that happens, that's the kid's own darn fault.

Since life seems to be an instance that all seem to want to use as an analogy for this discussion, then we must be honest about how life is not fair.
1. Contracts are constantly nullified or voided;ie, how corporations are backing out of their commitments to retired employees.
2.Some individual's have made mistakes and often gotten away with them based on their family name or who their parents may know.
3. Slavery was abolished after the Civil War, but it took another 100 years for civil rights. Jim Crowe laws in the South were often more destructive to the ex-slaves, tha slavery itself.
4. Children today face a much more rigidly structured environment in school, due in part to the fact that many parents work too much and need someone else to raise their kids. Children today take countless tests, face rigid rules that does not allow for failure or the ability to make amends, and children realize at this age that many of the people before them did the same things they are attempting today and turned out just fine.
5. While all of the above points are just a rant by War Veteran turned school teacher, I just wished to point out various arguements that could be brought forth by the children reading these postings.


I am dedicated to educating our children, but sometimes honesty is forgotten in the equation when dealing with them. We as educators and coaches often speak openly and honestly when behind closed doors, but speak in another way when talking to our adminstrators and boards. Why? Because we often have a clearer understanding of the nuiances that life operates on.
Should we be firm or lax on enforcement? That is a difficult for an individual to truly discuss without knowing the kid or the instance of violation in an up close and personnel way.
I do believe in honor and living by a code with the highest standards, but I also believe in having compassion and temperence when dealing with our young children, who are often just starting to learn who they are themselves.

It is against the law for anyone under the age of 21 to consume alcohol.

wow bystander, that totally added to the conversation

bystander,
It is also against the law to go 31 mph in a 30 mph speed zone. Do we lock them up and throw away the key for that also? I think there is a place for disciplinary action but it seems that our schools are trying to act as probabtion officers and social case workers rather than educators. Suspending a kid for violating school policy is more detrimental to them then keeping them in the class room. I know some schools suspend kids that violate the alcohol policy from activites such as SADD. How much sense does that make????? I am all for disciplinary action when a student violates the school policy but I can guarantee you that most of the individuals that enforce these penalties on the students have violated many, many policies in their day.

I totally disagree with you on this. I think the severity of the punishment absolutely can have a deterrent effect on the actions of student athletes. Since you brought it up as an example, I think that this recent episode involving the Derby team would not have happened at all or at least several of the people who committed the infraction would not have used alcohol, if they had at the start of the season signed a zero tolerance agreement on alcohol, tobacco and drug usage like the Shawnee Mission policy agreement and they believed it would be enforced. I believe that the thought of being thrown off the wrestling team for the rest of the season would have definitely stopped more than one of them from using alcohol that day. I believe wrestling is too important for several of them involved. I just do not accept the idea that the severity of punishment does not have an influence on preventing people from committing an undesirable action.

Of course you would prefer that a person not commit the undesirable action for a positive reason and not just because they fear the punishment, but that will not always happen so society has to have consequences in place to deter certain offenses.

first of all i'm sure they signed some type of agreement at the beginning of the season agreeing to the school policy regarding substance abuse and usually that they won't use them is included. so if they didn't adhere to one signed document what makes you think they'd adhere to another?

i think you are thinking like an adult would think in that situation. when you say "wrestling is to important for several of them involved" that statement assumes they thought of the consequences before they acted as a responsible adult would do. we aren't dealing with adults here. i don't believe they considered the consequences before they acted, had they considered the consequences before they acted i believe at least some of them wouldn't have done it given what the consequences are. do you really think nathan furches thought all of this was worth it? i mean, i know how most high school kids think and i flat out do not believe that the thought process was, "well, if we get caught we're only out for a week so lets just do it anyways because even if we do get caught, hey its worth it for the good time." i mean, someone used speeding as an example, when you speed you don't think about how much the ticket would cost you. you think about how many people speed and don't get caught.

In my mind it is a question of character. What decisions do we make if we figure, we won't get caught?

I find it a bit cavalier to think a rule breaker, a law breaker, a persons who "fudges" a bit with their taxes; thinks they will get caught! But when we outline the potential punishments at least one can make an informed decision.

The consequences of violating the Shawnee Mission district policy are so severe that I believe the decision to not drink is made by most dedicated student athletes way before they are offered a drink or attend a party. As LancerM said, they choose to avoid any friends or parties where they could be at risk. This policy is so effective that years later, we still discuss Ryan Lilja, or the one or two athletes we know who have been dismissed from a team over the years for violating the policy. They serve as a warning for other student athletes for years to come.

Another thing to keep in mind is the emphasis in Johnson County by the law-enforcement authorities to catch and punish under-age drinking, including those adults who allow it. I believe they have a task force that actively seeks out teen parties through blogs, gossip, overheard conversations and by patrolling on Friday/Saturday nights looking for lots of cars in a neighborhood. Parents who host these parties or have even just been absent have been charged. Not sure of the outcome, but Johnson County is serious about catching teens who are drinking.

i do applaud the shawnee mission school district for sticking to their policy regardless of who is involved. i suppose their is no way to prove this, but i just don't believe it really prevents kids from drinking. i'm wondering if anyone has anonymous surveys from shawnee mission students and a couple other school districts to see if we have much of a difference. lots of schools give these types of surveys out so i'm sure they exist, unfortunately we probably cannot get our hands on the data. i suppose all policies are fair so long as they are presented before the season and the policy is kept. so i'm not arguing that whether or not the shawnee mission policy is fair, just whether or not its the absolute best for kids. it seems most of you are not in agreement with me so perhaps you are right. i really wish we had the data to compare between school districts, even if it didn't support me it would be interesting and i suppose i could probably be convinced the other way if it did not support me. in the end i think we're all on the same page in that we want to see less kids drink, do whats best for kids, and see our athletes on field/mat/court competing and following the rules away from the place of competition. i think i've made my points on this topic so unless something completely knew is presented i'll probably shut up about it. about everyone who posted on here made a lot of good points, good discussion, hopefully no incidents will come up to make a discussion like this seem nessasary the rest of wrestling season.

Jumpin Jack flash

Well, I can see you don’t know much about the role of educators today. Did you realize that if I know of a function where alcohol is being served to minors and I don’t report it. I can be held responsible for any injuries. Did you also realize that we are bound by law to report any possible abuse cases. Yes, schools play many different roles today and we as educators don’t have a choice in the matter. Before you chastise educators try living the life of one. It isn’t that easy. We get pretty close to the kids we work with whether they are athletes or not. We probably know the kids better than their probation officers and social workers. Hell, we probably know them better than some of their parents do.

I haven’t been following this topic too closely, but as an educator/coach I felt compelled to address a couple of the comments made on some of the posts. Fist off the difference between a coach/teacher using alcohol or tobacco and a student/athlete is pretty clear. It is called being an adult of legal age to do so. No, educators shouldn’t use it in school, but I didn’t think that was the topic that was originally opened for discussion.

Stopping thinking kids are always so innocent because they are not. The days of Leave it to Beaver are gone forever unfortunately. Our society has become so protective over the possible violation of student rights that our schools have to tip toe when dealing with discipline. Let them stand on their own two feet and learn the lessons of life so they have a chance later on down the road.

Society has become so critical of schools in the last two decades that it is no wonder why people have chose not to pursue a career in education. In my opinion society needs to take a long look in the mirror and ask whose at fault for the behavior of kids today. I think you will find that answer is staring back at us in the mirror. My father raised his kids by an almost forgotten adage that he grew up with. “Spare the rod, spoil the child”. It did me some good to be painfully reminded who was actually in charge of my life. Today were so concerned with hurting the self-esteem of children. Why? They haven’t accomplished anything yet to build that self-esteem. Were so worried about building champions and winning titles that we’ve lost sight of our true job. Building people.

I’m done ranting.

Coach Neil, that is a very good post. You are so right that our job as parents, your job as an educator/coach and even the student wrestlers is not to build champions but to build people. That is so true. I need to print out that last paragraph of your post and hang it up somewhere.

It reminds me of something my boss told me that he had read in a book about John Wooden. Mr. Wooden said something to the effect that there are some players that want to be characters when his main goal for them was to build character. I was reminded of that when reading your last two sentences about us being so concerned about building champions and winning titles that we've lost sight of what should be our true job of building people.

I do not think your were ranting. I just think you were sharing some wisdom with us. Thank you for posting and sharing your wisdom and experience on this topic.

The dangers of teenage drinking can be very severe and that is why I believe this Shawnee Mission zero tolerance is a good policy and one that should be seriously considered by the KSHSAA for all Kansas schools. I did a search on MSN to see what I could find on articles that address the dangers of teenage drinking. This is one of many that came up on the search from the Center for Science in the Public Interest website.

http://www.cspinet.org/booze/alcyouth.html

Young People and Alcohol


UNDERAGE DRINKING IS WIDESPREAD IN THE U.S...

More than 10 million current drinkers in the United States are between the ages of 12-20. Of these young drinkers, 20% engage in binge drinking and 6% are heavy drinkers.[1]

On average, young people begin drinking at 13.1 years of age.[2]

By the time they are high school seniors, more than 80% have used alcohol and approximately 62% have been drunk.[3]

Girls are beginning to drink at younger ages. In the 1960s, 7% of 10- to 14-year-old females used alcohol; by the early 1990's, that figure had risen to 31%.[4]

Due to heavy or binge drinking, nearly one out of every five teenagers (16%) has experienced "black outs," after which they could not remember what happened the previous evening. [5]

Young people have easy access to alcohol. In alcohol purchase attempts made by researchers across the U.S., buyers who appeared to be underage were able to purchase alcohol with no questions asked at least 50% of the time. [6]

AND THE CONSEQUENCES ARE DEVASTATING...

Alcohol is a factor in the four leading causes of death among persons ages 10 to 24: (1) motor-vehicle crashes, (2) unintentional injuries, (3) homicide, and (4) suicide. [7]

Young people who begin drinking before age 15 are four times more likely to develop alcohol dependence than those who begin drinking at age 21. [8]

More than 67% of young people who start drinking before the age of 15 will try an illicit drug. Children who drink are 7.5 times more likely to use any illicit drug, more than 22 times more likely to use marijuana, and 50 times more likely to use cocaine than children who never drank. [91

Teens under 15 who have ever consumed alcohol are twice as likely to have sex as those who have not. Nearly 4 in 10 (39%) sexually active teens who use alcohol have had sexual intercourse with four or more individuals. [10]

Underage drinking costs Americans nearly $53 billion annually. If this cost were shared equally by each congressional district, the amount would total more than $120 million per district. [11]

Researchers estimate that alcohol use is implicated in one to two-thirds of sexual assault and acquaintance or "date" rape cases among teens and college students. [12]

In 1999, 21% of 15- to 20-year-old drivers who were killed in crashes were intoxicated. [13]


REFERENCES
1. Summary of Findings from the 1999 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, August 2000.
2. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Main Findings 1998, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
3. Monitoring the Future Study, University of Michigan, 2000.
4. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, Substance Abuse Among Women in the U.S. United States Department of Health and Human Services, 1996.
5. Summary Findings American Academy of Pediatrics Survey: Teen Alcohol Consumption, American Academy of Pediatrics, September 1998.
6. Wagenaar, Alexander C., "Alcohol Compliance Checks: A Procedures Manual for Enforcing Age-of-Sale Laws," University of Minnesota Alcohol Epidemiology Program, May, 2000, p 6.
7. Kann, L., et al. (2000). Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance -- United States, 1999. Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, vol. 49(SS05): 1-96.
8. Grant, B.F., & Dawson, D. A. (1997). Age at Onset of Alcohol Use and its Association with DSM-IV Alcohol Abuse and Dependence: Results from the National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Survey. Journal of Substance Abuse, vol. 9, p. 103-110.
9. Cigarettes, Alcohol, Marijuana: Gateways to Illicit Drug Use, Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse, Columbia University, 1994.
10. Dangerous Liaisons: Substance Abuse and Sex, Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse, Columbia University, 1999.
11. Costs of Underage Drinking, Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation, 1999.
12. Youth and Alcohol: Dangerous and Deadly Consequences, Office of the Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1992.
13. Traffic Safety Facts 1999, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

May 2001

Mr. Nowak,
those statistics are chilling. i'd just like to clarify one more time that i am not arguing the seriousness of the issue, but rather what i feel is the best way to handle it in the best interest of kids.

originally posted by coach neil:

Jumpin Jack flash

Well, I can see you don’t know much about the role of educators today. Did you realize that if I know of a function where alcohol is being served to minors and I don’t report it. I can be held responsible for any injuries. Did you also realize that we are bound by law to report any possible abuse cases. Yes, schools play many different roles today and we as educators don’t have a choice in the matter. Before you chastise educators try living the life of one. It isn’t that easy.

coach neil,

I think you would be surprised how much I do know about educators and the roles they have to play these days. I do realize they have to wear many hats and it is sad and that is one of the points I was trying to make. And by no means was I chastising educators, if I came across that way I apologize. I do however think some educators spend TOO MUCH time trying to figure out what the HIGH SCHOOL KIDS are doing this weekend. I know in our shcool system, as a very knowledgeable church going lady that works for our school system told me, some of our educators see our kids as guilty until proven innocent.

wrestle007,

I do realize that just because you are not in support of the Shawnee Missions zero tolerance policy that doesn't mean that you are saying that teenage drinking is not a serious matter. I know you realize how serious a problem it is. You are just saying that you do not believe the Shawnee Mission solution is the best way to deal with it. I think a lot of people, who are not posting, share that belief with you. I myself had that opinion that it was too severe of a punishment for a first offense, when it first was adopted and subsequently applied in the Ryan Lilja incident several years ago. I have recently become a supporter of the Shawnee Mission zero tolerance policy after following the Derby incident and the ensuing discussion on it on this forum. I started thinking about it more and looking more into the dangers of teenage drinking. I have come to believe that the dangers of teenage drinking are severe enough that the zero tolerance policy of Shawnee Mission is warranted. This is what I believe is ultimately in the best interests of our young people.

In Fort Scott your first offence for drinking, Your off the team. Bob Campbell did this with the 2002 and 2003 players that were on the State team. These were juniors and the next year two other juniors tried and failed . I think if you can save a whole and just lose one you have done a greater deed for the team. As the saying goes, " NO ONE IS BIGGER THAN THE TEAM "

At Neodesha the policy is two weeks of competition whether you are in season or not in season. If you are a wrestler and get caught during football season and don't play football, you are out the first two weeks of competition in wrestling. On the second offense you are out for a full year. You do have the option of going through counseling over the summer and being reinstated the following fall. If you get caught in the spring you are only out one season but if your second one is in the fall you are out the rest of the year. I guess if you get caught a second time that early in the year you have bigger problems then not playing sports. We went to two weeks verses 3 thinking kids would confess quicker. Some tell the truth and they are punished the ones who lie get away with it.
I don't buy into that double standard about what adults do or don't do. If a teacher/coach is caught drinking, chewing whatever with students or while supervising students they should probably go through due process and be fired but on their own time their business. If they get in a car then if they get nabbed by the law due process and they should be fired or whatever. 21 is the law for more then just a magic age, people under that age are still developing brain pathways, they are less experienced drivers, judgement isn't the best. They don't always make the best choices sober let alone drunk, neither do adults but they are legally responsible for their choices. I try not to drink during season, I don't drink in front of my children but I'm not going to say it's a double standard if others do. I just think a lot of people work hard to help our children stay drug and alcohol free why would I blow it but being a bad example.

I have been reading this thread for awhile with interest as 2 wrestlers in a nearby school were kick off the team for drinking some time back. I thought it was a very sever punishment. Remember these are kids. A year or so ago a study came out saying the brain passages that deal with immediate thinking do not fully form until we are in our mid-20's. As such, kids are going to make mistakes. With that said, punishment is necessary to make sure they know it is serious. Kansas loses way too many teenage boys to drinking and driving. But what is the right punishment. I think we need to remember we also make mistakes. Do those of you advocating harsh punishment ever speed with your kids in your car? All I am saying is rules need to be reasonable and TRULY have the best interest of the kids in mind. Kicking some kids off the team might wake some up, but for those who are really only trying in school for the sport, I am not sure. Guess I am glad I am not making these decisions. We should all be careful about judging others. And, finally, did the last post advocate firing a teacher who chews after work while around students? I sure hope not, with the time coaches put in and having the school and every parent in the district watch their every step, why would anyone coach.

Like several others I have been lookin at these threads and honestly I'm in disbelief. As many of you know I coach at Schlagle High School and if you was to walk through the hallways at Schlagle and poll the students on what would happen to a student if they were caught drinking during athletes they would ALL mockingly say your would get 10 days and a hearing. That's 10 days out of school suspension and a hearing on weather or not you even deserve to return.

But then again the numbers of fights that happen at Schlagle are also very rare because they are also an automatic 5-10 days of out of school suspension regardless of fault or the situation. The best part about it is that is ALL known information and what I call common knowledge. Some kids have even become creative "meet me at the park down the street after school" because they didnt want to get kicked out of school for 2 weeks.

I like many of you think that kickin a kid out of school for 2 weeks is a bit extreme HOWEVER, someone fighting is still a choice that each of the students made as proven by the lack of the number of fights that happen at the high school.

Maybe high school students dont make the best choices. But ALL kids know right from wrong and are able to reason. They have to know that after ever decision they make a consequence will happen. There are good consequences and bad ones but something will happen after every choice and decision that is made.

I personally dont smoke nor drink and that is my preference. I never pretend to be able to control what anyone do when they are not in my presence but I tell them this. If you guys love wrestling the way I do and if you value being a member of this team then you wouldnt never even think about smoking or drinking anytime you are in my presence. This would result in a dismissal from the team with zero chance of returning EVER. Not only is it disrespectful to me but it could cost me my job and its not healthy for the student athletes themselves.

There is no suprises as this is somethin we talk about with the student athletes, with their parents at parent meeting and it what I consider common knowledge.

So know you know the rule, do you want to break it and face the consequences.

I dont pretend that there are kids that dont drink or smoke but they will respect me and understand my stance on the issue. When I was in high school (I attended Schlagle) I have lost a friend due to drinking and driving. How much more serious do it get past death. I tell them all the time. Dont try to grow up faster than you have to. When you get of age drinking and smokin and other things will be your choice. Enjoy your youth and the experiences you have in high school will last a life time.

Sorry if its choppy