Suggested Rule Changes for 2009-2010

Attention High School Coaches: I have begun a thread on the coach's forum for proposals for the KSHSAA board.

Where is the coaches forum?

High School coaches have a forum heading all their own...contact Mike Juby for details.

Why don't we communicate the changes to the wrestling parents and supporters too?

Will,

The proposed changes in the coach's forum are intended to be a discussion for consideration to present to KSHSAA. It is intended for discussion so that recomendations can be bounced off other coaches and the list narrowed to a manageable few that may be presented.

I know you and many others have many valid suggestions and they may be made at any time here but like many threads, they sometimes take on a life of their own and the topics take many turns.

By having the coach's forum, way we can keep the discussion focused and possibly get a few changes made that will benefit Kansas kids. KSHSAA board members will not seriously consider a lengthy list but a focused proposal may hopefully get things going...like getting the growth allowance earlier!

Any parents and supporters wishing to offer advice may do so here! Let the games begin!

How about we create as long as a list as we can. I will challenge Musselman and Bowden to a cage match. They can be a tag team and I will go it alone. If I win we get all changes. If they win I never post a negative KSHSAA comment again.

It is BS that we can't have many changes. Kids only get four years to compete and it takes YEARS to change anything. That isn't right! Lets change the process NOW. KSHSAA works for the coachs and schools, not vice versa. Stand up for what you believe in and FIGHT. Quit being a bunch of namby pambies and get something done.

Unchain coaches so they can coach in March, April and May.

Overturn or disregard the 5 match per day limit. Make it 7 so that big tournaments could be held in one day.

Get rid of that stupid 30 point competition point rule. Develop a system that encourages weekday individual duals and lets kids REALISTICALLY get 60 matches if they want them.

Abolish the rule the prohibits attending non sanctioned events prior to the beginning of the season and during the holiday break.

Deregulate, completely, middle school wrestling so that we can grow the sport. Wrestlers should be allowed to compete in their school program and club program simultaneously.

Allow wrestlers to practice as much as they want to with who they want to. Let them attend clinics or camps during the season. If someone WANTS to get better, freakn let them!

Give the two pounds after the holiday break.

Abolish the 500 mile and video tape rules. Technology has outdated them.

Okay, I am just getting warmed up!

Eliminate the use of the word "fair" in the KSHSAA rulebook and handbook!

How about the state assign a neighboring school to cross against for hydration testing. The opposing AD would test the other team.

Sounds like a valid idea to cut down on the cheaters. But, I wouldn't worry about my two boys Walker and Texas Ranger they wake up in the morinin' and piss excellence like their ole' man.

We could sell tickets to the aforementioned cage match! I am sure Mark Stanley can get the Topeka Expo Center. Between the gate, parking, concessions, and t-shirts we might be able to make a dent in the education cuts that are being debated in the political cage fight at the State Capital.

I'd buy a few myself...should be more entertaining than the political cage fighting about to take place!

Mr. Cokeley,

I could not agree with you more on any of your suggestions, especially the middle school rule. I strongly support our middle school program (and high school). However in order to develop our wrestlers for these programs, club wrestling is needed as well. It just seems the KSHSAA turns a deaf ear to realistic and valid ideas. Your list I am sure speaks for many in the wrestling community, not just coaches. By the time the middle school ruling is changed, my middle schoolers will be in college. The suggested changes for high school will unfortunately have no effect for my senior. However, we need to move forward and get the KSHSAA into the current century!

I disagree with the cage fighting as a fund raiser for budget cuts. Just line up KSHSAA members on bar stools and sell pies. Its alot easier and should more than cover budget cuts. I would buy 100 pies myself and let the unforunate throw them just to be FAIR. LOL...... Choclate pies $5, blueberry pies $3. Would be alot of fun and we wouldn't have to worry about Mr. Cokeley getting hurt.

Most of all, I would like to see the 5 match rule revisited. My son has been bitten twice by that rule. Really disheartening for a kid that has a bad 1st round match (in a large tournament) to understand that he now has no chance to wrestle in the consolation finals.

A coin flip simply does not inspire.

I totally agree,... We wrestle alot of oklahoma tournaments. The kids are ready before we are and wrestle many more matches. We can't hamstring our kids and expect to have the scouts give them a fair look.

i thought the five match limit was a national rule?

It is!

I have seen the list of requests and I have one thing to say, ABDONED the effort to get dual state. In light of all of the cuts that are going to happen we cannot possibly expect a change that will extend the season or cost more money.

I know that we DO NOT have to abide by the NHSFAA rules. We have modifications for weight control and weigh-ins. We MUST adopt the 7 match limit to provide an opportunity for 16 team tournaments on one day and to let wrestlers get more matches in one day as schools will be cutting back travel, overnight stays, etc. Football teams play for 48 minutes and 7 matches is only 42. Kansas could be the trend setter. To me this rule is sorely needed and you all know I am a fan of dual state and a host of other changes. Honestly, why do we need the KSHSAA? There is a cost cut! Schools should police themselves and the glutony of administrators, schoolboards, and other employees could be utilized to perform the functions they now handle.

As queasy as this makes me feel to say....I agree with you Cokeley. (just kiddin) KSHSAA doesn't want to change many things. It's the same way in my "real" line of work, music education. We lobby to get things changed, or rather, fixed and it never seems to get done. And, as with the 5 match rule and others mentioned, there is no real "reason" I can see to not modify them. Oh well, I would like to see you in a cage-but don't think you'll get any takers! And I know why you want more duels in the NEAR future. St. James will win Regionals next year and be in position to punish some teams in duel settings! Good luck this weekend!

Will:

I had never really thought of the football thing before, but you're right. I'd be happy with a sixth-match; my experience is that once you hit a 16-team tourney, you usually end up with two days which solves the problem. As for following the NFHS rules, that was pretty much shot down when Kansas went against the weigh-in rules 10 years ago, and no one appears to have died from that.

Also, insofar as the 500 mile rule goes, sure, abolish it. But keep in mind under the current economic climate, it's a little like being allowed to buy a school airliner to go to meets. You can make it legal, but who is either going to A) approve it or B) be able to afford it? And as for the video tape rule, that's about as well-enforced as the seat-belt law. Nine of 10 times, you're never going to get caught doing it.

I am IN FAVOR for several reasons of expanding the daily match limit to six. I do see some situations that would have to be worked around, especially as it relates to competition with out-of-state schools that would adhere to the five match rule.

But, comparing wrestling to football (or any other sport) is a "straw man" argument. Football is a series of 15 to 20 second bursts of activity followed by 20-30 seconds of relative inactivity. Wrestling is, by far, more physically intense.

To take the offered analogy one step further, high school basketball games last 32 minutes, so should the total daily wrestling time be reduced to match that?

No Stalling Penalties

Don't some basketball tournaments require a team to play two games in one day? That would be 64 minutes.

Honestly, there is NO legitmate arguement against even 7 matches per day. Every summer kids wrestle up to nine matches in one day in Fargo, against the toughest competition in the US. This rule change is an absolute no brainer from an economic standpoint so it should be embraced by all those who are facing budget cuts in the coming year and beyond.

No high school varsity tournaments of which I am familiar require two games per day, though there are some JH and JV tournaments which do. Again, comparing the physical rigors of BB and wrestling is an apples and oranges argument--just as comparing FB & wrestling.

You are preaching to the choir on this one, Will. I think nine is too many; while I think six would capture most of our situations, I could be pursuaded to consider seven. Please remember not all who wrestle in high school are Fargo-caliber athletes and our kids do this multiple weekends.

Again, balance and perspective.

Mann

More stalling calls.

Change out of bounds rules.

Make an exception to the 5 match limit for 16-man brackets.

Universalize junior high seasons across the state, that way everyone is doing the same thing at the same time. Also, have split season dates in JH so kids can both wrestle and play basketball. (this really only applies to smaller schools)

Go back to the old style of wrestling. I went to 321A regionals and state, and saw very few kids with "heavy hands" and basically just punishing their opponents. From the sounds of it I would have been ejected for my style of wrestling, and I haven't been out of the sport that long. Get tough or go home.

Point of emphasis: post match actions. I saw several kids throwing fits, barely shaking hands, etc. Unacceptable, though this may be more of a coaches domain, KSHSAA could take actions to crack down on some of this.

What about increasing the number of matches in Jr. High. It always seemed that about the time a new wrestler was starting to pick up the sport the season would end. Just a thought..

Mann,

I know that the KWCA is in favor and has this change as number one on their topic (thus the choir situation) but I am trying to help explain how to justify it to a group of non-wrestlers. How many on the Executive Board of KSHSAA are wrestling advocates? They all understand football and basketball so while it may not be apples to apples for you and me it might be a great way to justify it to a group of nonwrestlers. I do believe that BB is much closer to wrestling than FB from a cardio perspective. And yes, I only know of non varsity events where they play more than one game a day but I believe that would PERMIT varsity to do so.

I personally advocate 7 matches, not 9, but I feel that pointing out that the number that are wrestled at Fargo is pertinent to the argument. While I agree that the large majority of our wrestlers are not the caliber that wrestle that many matches in Fargo, I do believe it is an APPLES TO APPLES comparison as neither are their opponents in Kansas. On top of that, our wrestlers are attending practice five days a week and wrestling every week and weekend during HS season while the Fargo competitors gear up for one event so it could be said they are NOT in the phycical condition that our athletes should be during the season. Just trying to bolster the arguement to get it done. It is sorely needed just as moving the 2 lb allowance to immediately after the Christmas break.

The apples to oranges of which I refer is the comparison of the physical rigors required of wrestling to the physical rigors of football and/or basketball. The comparison of Fargo to "regular" high school wrestling is more a comparison of apple types, such as "Delicious" to "Jonathan!"

Basketball is PERMITTED to play two games in a day, but at the varsity level it has been utilized almost exclusively as a "LAST RESORT" when necessary to finish a tournament due to postponements. It is not, as is being discussed with wrestling, a regularly scheduled and expected occurrence.

Very briefly, my concerns with eight/nine matches in a day are:

#1 eight/nine matches with 45 minutes rest means that a one-day tournament is going to be a very large tournament and a very, very long day for competitors, fans and coaches.

#2 eight/nine matches for most average high school athletes is more than can be handled at a quality level--even if the quality, as a relative matter, is not high.

#3 Our kids do practice every day and most should be in good condition; but (a) how many times do we see kids "gas" in the third period--even at State? (b) Kids get sick during the season and try to wrestle through it. (c) We wrestle more competitions during the week than just on weekends. (d) Kids have other things that require their time during the season: academics and some even try to take part in other school organizations and activities.

I am in favor of six matches and could be pursuaded to consider a seventh if necessary to wrestle off for a medal. This would allow for the utilaztion of 24 man brackets for a Saturday. Most of us realize that for most of us to fill a 16 man bracket requires 20+ teams and there will, therefore, be those weights more than 16 competitors--which if the first round match is lost but wrestles back through a FULL consolation bracket would require a seventh match for third.

But consider this: Many of us compete with out-of-state schools who are not as "forward thinking" as is Kansas and DO follow NFS rules; these schools will probably not wrestle the sixth or seventh match even if legal in Kansas and when we go out-of-state, the sixth and seventh matches would not be an option. So, the question becomes, just how far out of compliance can we be before we are seen as being a "renegade" state thereby, possibly, reducing our opportunity to compete with out-of-state opponents?

Finally, adding matches to the day cannot be "sold" as a way to save money/cut costs as there is no accompanying decrease in competition dates. Allowing more matches in a day WILL allow more matches in a season under the current point rules, BUT it does not reduce the number of competitions allowed and therefore, is not a money saver as there is no reduction in travel, utilities, referees, table and gate workers, etc.

The executive board is supportive of those rules changes which are evidenced to have wide support and of which they can be convinced by those they consider to be knowledgeable are good for kids and Kansas. Getting too far out of compliance with NF rules (especially when ALL other KSHSAA sports are in)is a MAJOR concern. Just what is it that makes us in Kansas think we are so much smarter than the other 40+ states who wrestle and follow the NF rules?

Greg Mann
Norton

Greg,

If you can make a two day event into a one day event you will not have lodging costs. If you make Kansas events more attractive then less teams will leave Kansas, more savings. I DO NOT want to be on record as stating I want 8 or 9, I believe 7 is fine. We are in agreement, sort of.

Out of state teams will not come to our one day events if they are not willing to violate the National Federation rule. I don't think that many are now... Yes, it will increase matches and that is a GOOD thing! The current point system really doesn't work, another topic. We have already broken the NF weigh in rule so be it. We are already renegades. Someone has to lead the change. Perhaps our success will entice others to follow or for the NF to change.

Most of the out-of-state events we go to are two-day events or are set up to comply where there are not forfeits, according to the results data I quickly reviewed.

How do we convince them Greg? What can the parents do to help push change through your system? We just need a little guidance.

Thanks
Will

Just wondering what everyone else would think about these two ideas.

1. Did we need the new starting sequence or could a new rule (and a thicker rules book) been avoided by placing more emphasis on the delayed whistle?

2. Why do we stop counting back points and giving pins when a wrestlers shoulders are out of bounds but one wrestler is still clearly in bounds? I have always thought the rules of wrestling were to create action.

Just curious what you think.

Myron Ellegood

Will,

Curious; you stated- -

How do the events do this (NOT talking about the two-day events) and still comply with the five match rule?

I agree that a fall/back points should be possible when the shoulder(s) of the defensive wrestler is out of bounds but the supporting points of the offensive wrestler are in-bounds. Takedowns are awarded when the offensive wrestler is in bounds and the defensive wrestler is out.

Starting sequence makes no difference if proper start procedure is not enforced. It has been a personal pet peeve of mine for a long time that the top man is allowed push, lay, press, etc. the bottom man as he is getting on and much of the time is not covering the belly button or at a full stop before the whistle is blown. I guess what I am saying is that I believe that better enforcement of current starting position rules, whatever they may be, is needed before another change in the rules.

Greg Mann
Norton

For one day tournaments, 16 man or less brackets are used with a max of 12 wrestlers in a 16 man bracket. Two byes on each side eliminate the need for a 6th match.

The same could be accomplished with 8 man brackets with pig tails, and the guarantee of additional, non scoring, matches for the first round losers. In order for the 12 men in a 16 man bracket to work without the need for a sixth match, you must be 100% sure there will be no more than 12 wrestlers in each weight; and I know of no way to guarantee this.

Unless you only invite 12 teams which means that a majority of the brackets will have less than 12 wrestlers. It hurts the match count for the winners if you get a bye. For example this year at the Derby tournament, a two day event, Ryne only got three matches. 18 teams, only 14 130lbers and they gave the 1 & 2 seeds the byes. I hate it when they do that! Burned up four competition points for three matches, not a good ROI!

For 12 wrestlers with the new format you could have two six man pools and four man line brackets to place. Everyone would get seven matches. An awesome day for all!

National Federation of State High School Association, Wrestling Rules Committee will meet April 1-4 in Indianapolis,Indiana. I attended the NWCA High School Scholastic meeting last Saturday in St. Louis, Missouri. I had the opportunity to sit with Tom McCann of Kearney, Nebraska, and Ethan Hauck of Lee Summitt, Mo. We heard Bob Colgate, President of the National Federation speak about the rule changes for 2009-2010 and 2010-2011. The national office has accepted 37 rule recommendations and 10 editorial changes to consider and possibly change. The #1 possible change is the 14 weight class for prep wrestling. If the National Office uses the data that has been compilied from selected states. We may see some weight classes change. Coach Chenowith of Perry, Oklahoma came in with a lot of documented data. If the committee does decide to recommend weight class change. All of the States that have prep wrestling will be given a year to look at the possible weight class changes. The weight class system will not change until the following year. Now Mr. Colgate mentioned there are states that are not in compliance.These state assocation will have to decide what is best for their high schools. Side note their are 17 states not in compliance with the national office concerning weight control plan. The meeting was very informative and I know many of us look forward to the results of such meeting in two weeks. I was told that if we want to see what the national committee was working on we could contact our local state association and they should have a copy for member schools to view.I know the three of us state reps wanted to see what the national committe would be working on. The NCAA D1 tournament was exciting and next year we are in Omaha, Nebraska. If you are ever in St. Louis, Missouri (2012) next NCAA meet. Stop at Johnny's Brady Lamar and Tyler Gonzales took the old coach for a burger and beer. Wow great place. Looking forward to this weekend Senior Classic and USAW Kansas Kids State. RMG

I heard they have your picture up on the wall as a missing person. Glad to see that you have been rounded up.

I'd like to see a couple weight classes added between 215 and 285, say 235 & 255.

There are some rule changes I'd like to see made that weren't discussed and some that were.

1. The number of matches should be increased to 7 as long as the rest periods between matches are provided. I can remember the old days when spring freestyle tournaments were pools with bad marks not brackets. I had kids wrestle 7 matches before the round-robin.

2. Instead of a weight limit on Hwt., I'd like to see a maximum body fat percentage mandated. If a kid is 300 pounds and under 15 percent body fat let him wrestle. This would let more football players compete in wrestling, and the football coaches shouldn't complain since you aren't making them cut weight.

3. Stalling, I have for a long time wanted a rule implemented that no points would be awarded by the official. Instead the other wrestler would be given his choice of positions. This would give referees incentive to call stalling more rigorously throughout the entire match, because they know they wouldn't determine the outcome of the match.

4. Weight management needs to be revisited. The amount of weight that a wrestler can lose per day is way too low. If a kid wrestles a dual on Wednesday at 130, he can't cut to 125 for a tournament on Friday, and most coaches don't want them cutting down to weight twice in that short period of time.

5. I'd like to weight classes added to freshman and JV competition. There are still kids who weigh in the 80s and 90s until their junior year. It isn't a bad thing that they don't make the varsity lineup until they are juniors, which is usually the case for many middle and upperweights. However, they don't get a chance to wrestle in competition against kids of the same size.

6. Some junior high kids are much more physically advanced than others are at the same age. The only way these kids can get a good workout is against high school kids. We know they workout during the fall, spring, and summer against high school kids, but aren't allowed to in the winter. Waiver forms signed by the parents would probably suffice to eliminate the liability issues.

As a former college wrestler i think that they should make high school more like college wrestling so the future wrestlers have a little more taste of it and are more ready. Such as riding time and i agree with the 7 match Cokeley is saying. Let these kids get more from the sports they love and deserve.

.

Been away from the sport for three years…so here’s my 2 cents (if it is worth even that!):

I understand the need for some regulation to foster some fairness and to avoid any blatant disregard for kid’s health and safety by potentially overzealous coaches and parents of the sport.

However...I believe that often regulations from "governing bodies" of any kind can take on a life of its own and hinder the ambitions of those striving to be the best they can be. In fact, I believe that in today’s world this might more often be the case than not.

The rule making bodies should strive at all times not to limit a kid’s pursuit of excellence. Wrestling is a tremendously competitive sport. Kids with lofty college aspirations are competing not just within the boundaries of the state but nationwide for scholarships and opportunities. There are some decisions that belong with parents, coaches, perhaps school administrators. Governing bodies can at times run a risk of applying almost a lowest common denominator standard to all and therefore, however unintentionally, hinder the ambitions of those striving toward elite goals.

Maybe the burden of proof should be as follows: unless there are very large risks that cannot be reasonably addressed by parents, coaches, school administrators maybe, then regulatory bodies should not impose restrictions.

I expect that these regulatory entities probably believe that they are doing this already. And I know reasonable minds can differ but my sense is that some of these rules affect more the goals of the elite than they do protect the participants.

Just my humble opinion.

I would propose an additional weighin before the placement rounds of all tournaments with an additional pound from the previous weighin. So one day tournaments would have a second weighin, and two day tournaments would have a 3rd. That way the placements rounds would be more representative of kids ability to compete fairly at the weight they are representing, rather than being 15 pounds or so over by the finals. There is a clear difference in the big cutters from Friday of a two day tournament to Saturday night. If we can't have matside weighins this would be a close second. It would eliminate the big cutters and make a fair playing field. And don't give me it would cause kids to starve longer speach. They would only do tha once, then they would realize they cannot cut that much and compete for a WHOLE tournament sucked down and they would move up. Food for thought. Blast away.

I like Badbo's idea. It would be a lot more practical than matside weigh ins from a logistics/time perspective and still achieve the same affect. I think excessive weight cutting is the number one thing that hurts this great sport. Hope somebody at least tries this.

I think now is a great time to change the 5 match a day rule, but not make it unlimited. The only way to change the 5 match a day rule is to propose it like this:

Wrestlers will be allowed to participate in 6 matches in a day, if they are participating in a tournament with a 16 man bracket.

This is a financial issue now. There are many two day tournaments that could be wrestled in one day if this rule is changed. This would help schools defray costs of travel and lodging and would allow many schools who have recently been forced by their districts to drop two-day tournaments to get back in the tournaments they want to be at. There is no need to wrestle 8 times a day in a dual tournament or a tourny that uses pools. The season is plenty lengthy to get enough mat time in.

Next:

End hydration testing.

The test that Kansas uses is not a legitimate hydration test. An official hydration test can only be conducted by a certified person. Holding a cup of urine up to a color chart does not prove or disprove a person's hydration level. We are simply going through the motions to satisfy the National Federation Rules which we, as a state, do not have to follow. This test is a waste of time, it is a waste of money, and it hurts the perception of our great sport.

The question I came up with this week was, would this include regionals? Would the coaches be in favor of having the 3-2-1A and 4A regionals run as a one day tournament? Moving those regionals to one day would help the host school have a more profitable tournament, and would eliminate some expenses of attending schools. It seems to me that would be the way to sell the change to the KSHSAA board.

I like it also!!

There are a lot of ideas being floated around out here. I am going to list the one's that I think could be implemented very easily without incurring additional costs to the school system....

1. Increase the match limit to 6 or 7 matches in a day. I think this would actually save the school district $$$ because a lot of tournaments could go from 2 day tournaments to 1 day tournaments.

2. Incorporate Bad Bo's idea of an additonal weigh in before the placing rounds. He is spot on with his reasoning and it doesn't cost a thing. In fact I think it would do more to keep kids from cutting an unhealthy amount of weight than the current certification and hydration testing does.

3. Increase the season point limit in order to do more duals. We are losing the casual sports fans and the support from the student bodies because hardly anyone has home duals at the school anymore. The mid-week duals are great to get the student body energized about the wrestling team. We need to improve this.

4. Lift the 500 mile rule. What purpose does it actually serve? The schools that can afford it or want to fund raise should have the freedom to do so. If a school doesn't want to travel like that.....they don't have to.

I think these 4 rules are very easy to implement without a large cost burden on the respective school districts.

Shawn Budke

I'm not sure increasing the point limit is the answer. How many schools will use the extra points for home duals? My bet is that they will just find another weekend dual tournament to attend. There are not anymore points allowed now as when I was in school, and we had plenty of thursday night duals. We also only wrestled about 30 matches a year. The problem is that too many coaches got greedy, and went to dual tournaments. They trashed the weekly duals, and in turn the student body support dwindled.

I agree with Beeson on this. If your program is losing support and you think the problem is the lack of home duals, then the coach of that program needs to change his schedule. I agree with Budke that duals increase the local fan base and I am a strong supporter of home duals. However, I would be totally against any home dual against one of Beeson's old high school teams.

The increase in points would be ONLY for Mon, Tue, Wed, or Thur night SINGLE DUALS.

There are nine competition weekends in the season. You could wrestle 9 one day tournaments and only have three points left for duals. 30 points is too few. Other states are getting 60-70 matches while we struggle to get 45. Tournaments are the best way to improve your individuals. At most duals, if you have a good kid, the coach runs away from them. Dual team events are cool but many times the best individuals don't get to wrestle each other. If a coach doesn't want to use of all of his points no problem, DON'T! 30 Points doesn't offer much flexibility. Points for WEEKDAY ONLY DUALS will force teams to host such. I am talking about two teams, one dual. Something a crowd is willing to give up 1.5 to 2 hours for. Pack the gym once a week.

Obviously Will and I have talked. I didn't explain very well that I would make the extra points only for weekday duals.

As I was thinking about this I had another idea of how to solve this and almost guarantee to increase weekday duals.

If we increase the points and say they are only used for weekday duals we run a risk of them being used differently and not getting at the intended outcome....therefore what are your thoughts on this idea.....

1. Keep the points the same but they only count toward weekend matches.

2. Make it so that weekday duals don't count any points at all.

3. If you are concerned that people would then be trying to wrestle duals everyday of the week you could say they can only have 2 duals per week. That would mean if you have a tri-dual during the week.....you have met your allocation. Or you could do 1 dual on Wed and 1 dual on Thurs for example.

Thoughts?

Shawn Budke

Regional Start Times.

Just looking at some very recently published regional start times.

4A and 321A 2 day regionals starting at 2 Pm on Friday and final rounds starting at 6 to 6:30 Pm. Probably not ending till close to 9 PM. Saturuday starting 11 AM, again not ending till 9 PM with ceremonies and awards. Two long, long days

The only 6A Regional with apublished start time is Manhattan. They are starting at 9 Am and finals start at 4 PM. A full day, but only one day.

Are we making the regionals too long. Realize that lots of schools, especially 321A, have to travel a long way to get where they are going. Not as bad for 4A. No problems for 5A and 6A.

Why cannot 4A and 321A start at ll AM or 12 Noon on both days. Start early, finish earlier, get home earlier. All 5A and 6A regionals should start, if not 9 AM, surely not later than 10 AM.

why is it necessary to wrestle so many rounds?? Why not eliminate the first round of the looser's bracket. How many wrestlers advanc very far out of the first round of that bracket. Elimination of this round for 4A and 321A would than have the looser's of the 2nd round winners bracket becoming the new first round of the loosers bracket. The first cross brackets would pit the winner of the new first round loosers bracket against the loosers of the Championship semi-finals. 5A and 6A would not require cross bracketing.

Won't save much time--probably two++ hours.

How about this RULE CHANGE "The Puffer Rule".

"If a wrestler stops a match for any reason other than blood or an illegal move injury, or referees time out (for head gear or shoes), the other wrestler gets awarded a point. THis would keep the puffers from getting a free timeout!!!!

you can also add when the coach asks the ref a question every time they go out of bounds or the whistle blows. I have seen coaches ask the ref about the scoring just so the kid can get a free timeout.

Do you seriously think using an inhaler is an advantage? Now we're getting a little out there. He's got an advantage, he can breath again. Give me a break.

Gary - I think you are misinterpreting the term puffer. The puffer rule is in regard to those out of shape kids who find any reason to take a break to catch their breath and get back into the match.

Why not allow near-fall points and pins when a wrestler’s shoulders are out of bounds. It seems like we are rewarding those who look for the edge of the mat when they are on their backs. If you can score a takedown in that situation it seems like you should be able to score near-fall points. It would also eliminate another judgment call for the officials.

There are two if not three open forums RIGHT NOW cussing and discussing stalling. I have been onthis forum for I think 3 years and I think stalling is the most consistently discussed topic over that period.

It seems current wrestlers, ex-wrestlers, coaches, ex and current, fans and parents, all present their views--and the vast majority all adovacate toughing the rule. Sorry to say, but all I read from refs is the alabi it's ajudgement call, or a quote from a rule book. OK. Let'do it by the rule book, but my judgement is refs control the pace of the match, and if they let the wrestlers rest, be non aggressive, flee the mat, hand fight, tug and pull, grunt and groan, and lots of other slow down tactics--then refs are not doing there job. how many poster have negatively compared Kansas Stalling to other more active refs/states with this issue.

I f refs need help calling stalling, I will call it for them from the bleachers.

This topic surely needs to go as the number one issue to the KSHSAA-----

I agree totally with toughening the stall calls. This year was the worst I have seen. Between that and all the time outs, I thought I was watching volleyball or basketball a few times. My fear is if this keeps up there will probably end up being a rule allowing for substitutions and I will have to send the kid to drama classes instead of wrestling camps to better play the refs. I think we all agree it's time to swing that pendulum back to the right and go back to some old school ways when the kids actually had to wrestle, be technically proficent, and be in condition.

I think this would just make it harder for some kids. Yeah some kids are gonna so it one time and quit cuz it was really tough but there are thos hard nosed kids out there that are going to do it if it kills them and its going to end up with someone getting seriously hurt

The way Kansas does their middle school wrestling is a shame. Splitting the season with basketball does nothing more than further deplete the number of potential wrestlers who will go out. The major issue is the ability of different leagues to decide whether they will wrestle early, or late in the season. By going late, it ruins the ability of kids to participate in clubs until very late in the club season. The choice, reduces the number of possible matches middle schoolers will get due to finding other schools going when they do.

But the biggest hurdle to make any changes regarding anything in this forum is that a large margin (I would modestly suggest 85-90%) of the state's ADs are basketball guys. I am not trying to start the BB vs WR argument, but these guys truly: 1) Don't understand the sport; 2) Don't really care to; 3) Will not suggest any changes if they believe that in some way they will negatively effect BB...Period. I have been in those meetings. Additionally, very few changes are proposed by the WCA. And when they are, coaches aren't doing a good job of discussing/convincing/explaining how and why the changes are good for kids to their admin.

This is a systemic issue. We all own some of the blame. At some point we have to get organized and put together a prioritized Master Plan of what needs to be changed, to get the changes we whine about on here to take place. Use the system in place the way it was intended and quit blaming KSHSAA for everything. 'They' (KSHSAA) didn't write the rules, school ADs and Administrators did.

That is where we have to start.

Thank you very much.

". . .Splitting the season with basketball does nothing more than further deplete the number of potential wrestlers who will go out."

My junior high basketball coaches say the opposite; they think it depletes the number of potential basketball players.

The problem isn't depleting the number of kids for either sport. Except in the smallest schools kids know if they have the size and skills to play basketball or if wrestling is their sport. No one can deny, that in many circumstances, the skill sets are totally different. However, that short little amount of time they call jr high wrestling isn't long enough to introduce a kid who has never wrestled to the sport. It sets them up for failure. The experiences you have had at Norton are unique. Norton, Hoxie, Smith Center, to name a few, and I mean few small schools are unique. They have tradition and a history of success and you guys still live in an area where kids may have a work ethic. Jr High wrestling needs to last a full season, not half. Kansas competes on a national level due to kids club, for most part. Yes, there will be exceptions, but they will be just that. Kansas wrestling will not progress any further until we change this rule. This is bigger then the 500 mile rule and all the others people complain about.

Finally, do you really have any basketball players in Norton??

I think our morning weigh-in for a 7pm dual needs to be addressed. This only causes our high school kids to cut more weight than they would if they had 1 hour weigh-in. I know we don't want kids holding weight for the entire day and don't want it to affect classroom studies but I would argue that morning weigh-ins for 7pm dual hurts the high school athletes even more. With a morning weigh-in athletes hold their weight down the entire day before and then after weigh-in the next morning it takes kids all day to recover for a 7pm dual. So now as it stands a high school kid cuts more weight and is worthless for 2 days if not more. 1 hour weigh-ins don't lie, kids are forced to do it the right way so they can be healthy and compete 1 hour later.

College meets are all 1 hour weigh ins for duals and meets for this reason. 1 hour weigh-in has taken a lot of the extreme weight loss out of the college level. In return you have healthier young men. These athletes still go to class and have to perform academically as well.

I always think it is funny when a high school dual is rescheduled due to whatever reason and the weigh-in is pushed up to 1 or 2 hours prior to wrestling. Funny how the big weight cutters on the team are all wrestling up a weight for the dual. Not all but many kids do cut too much weight in Kansas and are doing it by not being healthy.

there are ways around a hydration test / ways to get doctors notes. 1 hour weigh-in is a legitimate way to help young kids maintain a healthy lifestyle.