5a break down

First off I want to congratulate this years Ark City 5a State Champions, A few people on the forum thought I was bashing you guys when I said "Ark City would not have won 12 titles in a row in 4a." That comment had nothing to do with your(this years) team and I am sorry if you thought it did.

This post is not to bash 5a it is to simply show that a change needs to be made. There have been some great ideas posted this year. I am all for combining 5a and 6a and having a 16 man regional bracket, I do not care about a rankings list that one person makes or how many so called top ranked wrestlers would be in the combination 56a state. 4a, 5a and 6a team rankings proved that the people making the list are not always right.

As I mentioned before there were 44 kids with losing records in the 5a state tournament. Here is how they did.

Those 44 and a few extra with a 500 record gave up
57 pins = 228 team points
4 tech falls = 14 team points
10 major decisions= 30 team points

That's a total of 272 team points scored off of kids that should not be there.

Of the 47 kids I looked at
31 of them went 0-2
10 of them went 1-2 beating another kid with a losing record!
2 of them beat a kid with a winning record and still went 1-2
4 of them went 2-2 beating kids with winning records.
none of them placed.

It just blows my mind that kids in 3a and 4a have to win at min 2 most likely 3 or 4 matches at regional's to qualify for state And some kids in 5a earn a first round bye that automatically qualify's them before they even show up. Something needs to be changed to make the 5a tourny not have kids with 4-15 records in it.

zzzzzzzzzz

I know you do not like being told how bad it is, so go back to sleep.

you've made this point over and over and over.

you ARE the definition of insanity. just keep doing the same thing over and over and over, and expecting different results.

it's sad actually, i must be going insane as well, 'cause i keep trying to help you out.

Lucas. In any of these statistics classes that you obviously didn't take? You talk about 44 kids with losing records, which is incorrect. There were not 44 kids with losing records. FACT. Then you go on to talk about "of the 47 kids I looked at"....seriously? I looked at 84 kids in the 5A tournament. They went 78-6 in the first round. I looked at the state placers. The only matches they lost in the first round were to other state placers. That means that 6 wrestlers had to come all the way out the back door just in order to get on the medal stand. That's impressive. Get your facts straight first and then come back so I can give you another lesson in basic math.

uh oh firehawks sanity is in question..... don't try to talk sense into him, it's useless

Resistance is futile?

Larry you are right there were 45 kids with losing records here they are.
106
1.Kohl of Hays 8-20
2.Wathke SHEIGHTS 3-6
3.Irwin SSOUTH 12-16
113
4.Tornquist MIEGE 7-27
5.Butler TWEST 3-10
6.Pacha CARROLL 13-21
7.Turkali VALLEYCE 20-22
8.Morris SHEIGHTS 1-4
120
9.Brown MIEGE 9-18
10.Boone VALLEYCE 23-25
11.Walling LANSING 12-17
12.Gray MILLVALL 17-18
13. Beeton TWES 12-13
14.Sims BLUEVALL 12-15
126
15.Smith SHEIGHTS 8-9
16.Camp WINFIELD 8-10
132
17.Mulligan SHEIGHTS 12-15
18.Spurlock TURNER 15-19
19.Moody LIBERAL 9-12
138
20.Kotzias MIEGE 13-17
145
21.Walter LANSING 10-14
22.Garcia EMPORIA 18-19
23.McCarthy AQUINAS 15-19
24.Page ACENTRAL 14-21
25.Mizell SEAMAN 6-10
152
26.Laster LANSING 7-15
27.McCune VALLEYCE 11-13
160
28.Macoubrie BLUEVALL 8-16
29.Dyson LANSING 17-19
30.Camp WINFIELD 11-20
170
31.Eckman EMPORIA 5-11
32.Paxton MILLVALL 12-15
33.Hagenbeck SOUTHWES 12-15
34.Ward LANSING 12-22
182
35.Grado MIEGE 8-12
195
36.Ashi EMPORIA 18-22
37.Goode AQUINAS 9-12
38.Mahoney MIEGE 3-13
220
39.Swearengin MILLVAL 4-14
40.McGrew ARKCITY 14-18
41.Gardenhire HIGHPARK 15-17
42. Nunez LIBERA 9-17
285
43.Flemming SSOUTH 13-15
44.Gochenour TURNER 14-21
45.Pepper SOUTHWES 13-15

of those 45 kids 31 of them went 0-2 Larry Im waiting on my basic math lesson.

Who cares!
They all wrestled there hearts out and most are underclassmen that are learning a lot!

Get a life dude!!!!!

Larry maybe you need a Basic Reading class.

Did I say they did not wrestle there harts out?
s
3 kids in 3a STATE with losing records! 3 kids in 4a STATE with losing records! They had to win at least 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 matches to EARN their way to state.

5a kids made it before even showing up at regional's.

45 kids in 5a STATE with losing records something is wrong with that picture. You guys need to check your emotions at the door. A good argument can only be won with facts not emotions.

Okay, I will continue. Instead of focusing on the negative, I am focusing on the positive.

Ben Lightfoot - Andover Central
He lost first round to eventual State Champion Isaac Dulgarian from STA. He then won 3 straight matches to earn his medal and finishing in 5th place. Scoring some nice team points for Andover Central in the process.

Bryce Dakin - Emporia
He lost first round to eventual 4th place finisher Anthony Monares from Newton. He then won 3 straight matches to earn his 5th place medal and scoring Emporia some nice team points.

Wyatt Villers - Ark City
He lost first round to eventual 5th place finisher Logan Bjorgo from Blue Valley Southwest. He then won 4 straight matches and avenged his first round loss in the process to finish 4th. I am sure Ark City appreciated those team points.

Dalton Rodd - Andover Central
He lost first round to eventual 6th place finisher Dylan Cox from Ark City. He then won 4 straight matches and avenged his first round loss in the process to finish 4th. More team points for Andover Central.

Luke Weldon - Valley Center
He lost first round to eventual 3rd place finisher Brady Munsch from Salina South. He then won 3 straight matches to get in and win 5th place. Team points......Valley Center.

Garret Lee - Newton
He lost first round to eventual second place finisher Zach Callahan from Mill Valley. He then won 3 straight to earn his fifth place medal and help Newton with some team points.

Everyone of these kids could have packed it in after losing first round. Wrestlers are head cases. I am proof of that. Instead, they sucked it up and went to work. Everyone of them finished with 4-2 records and finished in 4th or 5th place. Nice job gentlemen!

Yeah 45. You figured it out. I am proud of you. Just thought if you were going to talk trash, you should have correct numbers.

And 5 of the top 6 teams in 5a. So it's easier to qualify in 5a, but harder to win. One class is always going to have something on another. You can pick the numbers any way you wish.

If your focus is on being a state qualifier, then 5a needs adjusted if the intent of the state series is to crown the state champ and placers, then 5a is as hard if not harder than any.

What is boils down to is some kids in 5a and 6a get to say their state qualifiers, when some kids in 4a do not, but after the first round it's all the same and there is tough kids every where.

Of those 45 kids that you just posted above, all 45 qualified for state the same way the other wrestlers in 5A did. Did some come from small regional brackets? Probably. Is that their fault, NO. They have no control over how many wrestlers are in their brackets or where those wrestlers come from. They also have no control over who they have scheduled matches against during the year. They compete the same as everyone else and they qualified just like everyone else. If you have to put others down to make yourself feel better, go ahead. It's sad. If there is a problem, come up with a solution, don't just whine and insult these athletes.

I am not agreeing/disagreeing with anyone, but LB's data is correct. I counted the same kids with losing records from the 5A state brackets.

There does need to be some sanity brought to the discussion---wins and losses are not the total story. I think most will agree that 5A (and 6A) wrestlers (from the bigger population centers in Kansas (Johnson County, Topeka, Wichita, newton, Hutch, Salina, all "G" towns out SW) wrestle better competition (mainly each other). A wrestler from these schools will certainly have a more balance record of wins and losses. A list of examples from LB's list.
Pacha CARROLL 13-21
Turkali VALLEYCE 20-22
Boone VALLEYCE 23-25
Gray MILLVALL 17-18
Spurlock TURNER 15-19
Garcia EMPORIA 18-19
McCarthy AQUINAS 15-19
Page ACENTRAL 14-21
Ashi EMPORIA 18-22
McGrew ARKCITY 14-18
Gardenhire HIGHPARK 15-17

Probably could add severall others to my list---good wrestlers who met tough competition all year. In fact, I imagine of these wrestlers placed at state!

The problem--one more time--is not the quality of the wrestlers--it the open round byes/the inability to fill the brackets at the regionals---and this is a problem in all four classes in almost all regionals. This is a multipled faceted problem. Several 5A and 6A urban schools do not/can not field complete wrestling rosters (wrestking is not a big inner city sport). Many 4A and 321A are just too small (enrollments) to field complete rosters.

Yes, There are problems. New tournament formats (dual state or Grand State) are not the solutions. Need to get more HS kids on the mats. Need more inner city wrestling clubs (lots of absolutely great elementary and middle school athletes in the cities who need to be introduced to wrestling). Perhaps KSHSAA could relax the restrictions on Co-OPs (let 3, 4, 5 ,6 ?? or more small schools Co-op on one team) with out forcing them into a bigger class (thus increasing the number of wrestlers).

Lots of problems and lots of good ideas how to solve them. Have to look at the big, big picture and then focu on finding a/the statewide solution/s. Just combining on 6a and 5A is not it!






for e

Can you not read? I did come up with a solution! Who did i insult?

Good facts are needed to make a good argument, you must be willing to see ALL angles. for instance the level of competition has to be considered when looking at those records.

You sir, are one track minded.

If you don't care about quality, and rather focus only on quantity, you will never have a good argument.

thus it's the same old tired stuff from the last three years.

what about football? do 4a teams get a bigger trophy because they had to play an extra game than 5a? Many teams make it to the playoffs without winning a single game until districts. I challenge you to take down your 5A state football championship patch, because 4a, 3a, and 2a had to play one more game than 5a. Somewhere in the state there was a 5a team without a winning record, in the playoffs. just a good factual argument right?

You talk about having a 16 man bracket at regionals. Cool, I'm all for that. However, if you combine 5a and 6a you will have FULL 16 man bracket for regionals!! Not all of the brackets in the 4a regionals had full 16 man brackets!! So now you are going to make it harder on the 5a and 6a kids to even get to the state tournament?!! And some that are good enough to place at their respected state tournament might not even qualify!!

Im not talking about football this is Wrestling. The 1998 Salina Central football team dominated that year, not too sure what that has to do with Wrestling though. Please prove to me that the 5a wrestlers are better? With 31 of the 45 going 0-2 and 10 going 1-2 only beating another wrestler with a losing record. I just do not see how you can say they wrestled better quality wrestlers during the season. Please show me FACTS that proves this comment. Let me in to your insight with 45 kids (20%) in a state tourny with losing records, I do not understand how you could possibly think they wrestled better guys. I willing to listen but I think a kid that is 4-14 would get beat by a any wrestler that has 30+ wins You guys act like you never run across a 4a team at all during the season.

I just posted about some problems with filling the brackets by small roster inner city schools. My wife is an administrator at Sumn Academy in KC, KS. Sumner is a five year school (8-12) and I see a lot of all mS and HS sports. I see two problems that I want to highlight:

1. KC Middle school wrestling coaches tweak their lineups--shuffle wrestlers--to get the most team points, i.e., its better to manage their wrestlers in to walk overs foe a team win rather than have the wrestlers get mat time--win or lose. In MS, who cares who wins and who loses--evidently only the coaches. Have talked to the coach at my wifes school, plus coaches from other MS, and all I normally get is blank looks [plus excuses). One solution, waive or relax the weight brackets: within reason let a MS kid wrestle his weight and up or down a weight.

2. Not enough Hispanics in wrestling in inner city schools. Does not seem to be a problem out west. Inner city Hispanic almost totally play soccer--very few footballers, less BBers, almost no wrestlers. Good athletes, need to get them into more sports!!

Austin Right now it is harder for 4a 3a guys to make it to the state tourny! Why would it be such a big deal if it were harder for 5a 6a? 5a regional Emporia only have 5 or 6 guys in many of the brackets. Im not seeing how they will suddenly have a full 16.As a Competitor you should want a full 16 man bracket. Beeson only lets his son Wrestle the tuffest tournys of the year so he can only wrestle great competition. I think he said Jake has only wrestled 5 times this year.

You are ignoring the consensus that believes that the 6a and 5A schools wrestle the better competition (among themselves in leagues and across the state in the better and bigger tournaments (Bobcat, Newton, BIT, EKL, Sunflower etc)

All hell, just put everybody together and have just one State Tournament. Place the top 10 and call it good! You could have lower weights from 8am to 1pm and heavier wieghts from 2pm to 7pm. Start on Thursday and end on Saturday. There you go, problem solved!

[/quote]

it doesn't have anything to do with wrestling. it has everything to do with your "good argument".

The Mustangs dominated because they had to play one less game than the 1998 2a, 3a, and 4a teams. If they had to play a bi-district game, against a team that earned their way to the playoffs, their domination would be proven. That state championship would mean something. Right now the facts are 5a teams that made the playoffs that year, with sub .500 records, watered down the competition. Salina Central has state football championships in 5a, they wouldn't have so many, or any at all, if they had to combine with 6a. Take down the patch Lucas, you played a watered down, easy road, playoff schedule.

please tell me how the 5a football champions differ from the wrestling state champions. 5a football is watered down, according to your standards, the same as wrestling. just facts to a good argument.

#1 ranked wrestlers:

5A - 7
6A - 3
4A - 3
321A - 1

Chief,
They only problem I see with this, is that 321A may not get the credit to be ranked #1 in your all class rankings, as they dont see some of the competion in the east or the bigger tournaments. And I know here it comes from someone (go to the better tournaments) well, remember this is not up to the kids who wreslte, it is up to the school district and/or AD. I wrestled for a small school in western kansas many moons ago, and we were limited on where we could go to compete. JMO.

Also I followed 5A much of this year, and there are some studs in 5A, just look at the salina south reginal 120. State placers from last year were left home. As far as filling up the brackets, I dont know if there is a good solution. Someone is NOT going to be happy if it is changed, and others WILL be happy. So pick your battle.

Your rankings mean nothing to me. Thats how you feel Im not arguing about the kids with winning records, Im arguing that something needs to be changed about the 20% of kids in the 5a bracket with losing records.

Oklahoma has 2 Regionals and an 8 man state I think that is a great solution for 5a and 6a. you would have to earn your way to the state tourny.

Please prove it to me. You guys all seem to think that but were is the proof 20% of the 50% of the kids that wrestle at state had a losing record. Where is this great competition? How can you say that a 30-5 kid in 4a has wrestled weaker competition than a 4-15 kid in 5a.

Finally a good idea! But do it for ALL CLASSES 3A, 4A, 5A, and 6A. And only place the top 4.

I guess its true...you really can't fix stupid!!

Some one ranked the teams for each classification this year, 456a all ended up out different than the rankings. Your ranking for this years wrestlers should have absolutely nothing to do with it. You are not GOD you do not know Who could beat who it is a guess and thats all there is too it.

Mr. Baker do you watch Kansas wrestling on a regular basis??!!

It can't be proven either way. One year, 6A has the best wrestler in the state, next year it's 5A or maybe 4A. Sometimes it's 3-2-1A. It's that way in every weight class. Each year is different as kids graduate and new kids come in. Some move up weight and some move down. It's all speculation. The one thing that is for sure is this.......Who the best wrestler is, has nothing to do their records or what class they are in, because at the highest levels you are going to have a lot of close matches and most of the time they could go either way.

Look at Oklahomas 5a bracket look how much different it is. I found one wrestler with a losing record. Dont call me stupid because I think we need to change. Id bet I could show you 10 more states brackets that have less than 10 kids with losing records.
http://www.stillwaterwrestling.com/statechamps/brackets/2011state/pre/2011_5A_state_brackets.pdf

Most of the kids have single digit losses

Nowhere in that statement did I call you stupid!! However if that's what u think then that's a personal problem. I think this argument is stupid. But you never awnsered my question. Do you watch Kansas wrestling on a regular basis?!!

I LIVE IN TEXAS SO I CANNOT. BUT THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HAVING 45 KIDS IN 5A STATE WITH LOSING RECORDS OF WICH 31 WENT 0-2 AND 10 WENT 1-2 ONLY BEATING ANOTHER KID WITH A LOSING RECORD

emotions???? you can't make an argument on emotions!

here another fact for you. Scott City number (#1 in 321a) (super 16 man regionals) matched up head to head with 4a, 5a, and 6a at Garden City. the beavers finished 11th, behind Ark City (#1 in 5a), Newton (#2 in 5a, Andale (#1 in 4a), Emporia (#8!!! in 5a), Garden City (#8!!! in 6a), Hays (#9!!! in 5a), and Dodge City (#9!!! in 6a.

I'm not trying to say one class is tougher than the other, call you stupid, call you GOD, or get all emotional. I'm just showing you some facts, to a good argument. Level of competition means something

If you live in another sate then you shouldn't be worried about Kansas haha. You shouldn't call these kids out that have losing records. Especially if you haven't watched them wrestle!!

NEBRASKA STATE WRESTLING BRACKETS
http://108.166.67.236:8080/tw/predefinedtournaments/MainFrame.jsp?sport=wrestling&TIM=1330630602184&pageName=&ie=false&frameSize=1109

COLORADO STATE WRESTLING BRACKETS 1 KID WITH A LOSING BRACKET IN 4A= 5A IN KANSAS
http://www.thewrestlingtourney.com/pub-tourney-reports.php

MISSOURI
http://www.mshsaa.org/2012C4HomePg.aspx

THATS GREAT WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH INDIVIDUAL RANKING THAT CHEIF MAKES UP EVERY YEAR? AND WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THERE BEING 45 KIDS IN 5A WITH LOSING RECORDS COMPETING IN THE STATE CHAMPIONSHIP?

I WRESTLED FOR ABILENE KANSAS, MY DAD IS A KANSAS HALL OF FAME WRESTLING COACH, BOTH OF MY LIL BROTHERS WRESTLED IN KANSAS, BOTH OF THEM AND MYSELF WRESTLED IN COLLEGE. MY YOUNGEST BROTHER AND MYSELF WRESTLED AT LCCC. MY OTHER BROTHER WRESTLED D1 FOR NEBRASKA. ITS PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE THAT THOSE KIDS WRESTLED IN THE STATE TOURNY WITH A LOSING RECORD. I WAS ONCE ONE OF THOSE KIDS! JUST BECAUSE I MOVED DOES NOT MEAN I CANNOT STILL LOVE KANSAS WRESTLING. I JUST WANT TO STOP BEING EMBARRASSED WHEN PEOPLE ASK WHY A 4-15 KID IS IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT.

From what I can see is that Scott City was also missing 2 of their good wrestlers that were state placers, this could have changed some of their points.

I went to the Missouri post that you supplied. Thank you for the information Lucas. By the way I counted 33 wrestlers with losing records. Found one kid that was 6-28.

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions here...

A couple of facts:
106# Tyler Irwin did in fact win a match to qualify. He won twice and dominated the 2 seed (with a nice winning record)10-0. He also beat a 321A state qualifier from Smith Center (24-11) and Norton (22-9).

285# Grant Flemming did in fact win a match to qualify. He beat the #4, #1 seeds at regional and placed 2nd. Both had better records. 2 state placers came out of this region.

I'm sorry you had to leave Kansas due to your embarrassment. I'm pretty proud of their accomplishments. They peaked at the right time and won their spot on the bracket.

Not to take anything away from these 2 athletes, but from what i am getting out of Baker's post, is that these wreslters went into state and did not win a match at state against an opponent with a winning record or win a match at all. Tyler Irwin 0-2, and Grant Flemming 1-2, 1 win against another wrestler with a losing record.

63 wrestlers listed on the Nebraska brackets with losing records.

They sure did. Aren't there plenty of guys in 321A and 4A that also go 0-2 or 1-2? Do those guys belong??? Does their record really matter?

He is knocking kids for not winning a match to make it to state. The fault lies with our state to get more kids out and fill some rosters. It is not the wrestlers fault. The wrestlers have no control over whether or not another team supplies a wrestler in his weight class.

Coach Seibel,
My son wrestled Tyler Irwin at the regional. Since he and others have been called out by an individual who thinks it cool to belittle young men. I can say without reservation that Tyler is a stronger wrestler than some with winning records from various classes we faced this year. Don't let one person taint his accomplishments.

not 1 4A regional bracket I saw was full either. It is not that much harder to qualify for state in 4A. Who cares if the kids have to win 1 or 2 more matches, that's life.

I also find it hard to believe that anybody would ask You (baker) about losing records in the state tournament. Without you bringing it up first.

He's knocking guys for having a losing record at the state tournament and how they obviously do not belong. The percentages are also amazing. Did you know that 25% of the wrestlers at state go 0-2?

Baker asked for facts that records can be misleading. My 106# Irwin (finished 12-18) BEAT two 321A state qualifiers that I know (usually don't pay much attention). Those two had a combined record of 46-20. Don't call kids out on a public forum. Learn to live with your shame and embarrassment. Do something else. Go outside and play.

I'm done with this.

Exactly my point. All these wrestlers qualified the same way. Whether they had a winning record or not. Whether they won a match or not. They went to regionals and placed and went on to state. If we don't like having 4 people in a regional, then we need to get more kids out for wrestling....state wide.

just showing mr baker that sometimes records don't reflect the true story. not trying to get you western ks 3a guys excited. thanks.

lucas you asked about the level of competition at the 5a level. just showing you facts. keeping MY emotions in check as i do.

Lucas,

How many kids in Texas with losing records qualified for state? Just curious.

I'm with lucas with its too easy to qualify for state in Kansas. Takes the luster away from the meaning of state qualifier. Minimally go back to the 80s when they had substate and only 8 qualified.

talk about emotions, i'll bet you're probably crushing the keyboard during this rant.

Let's assume all 3 of the 4A kids with losing records only were either 0-2 or 1-2.

That means 49.3% of 4A kids with winning records 109/221 also either were 0-2 or 1-2. Based on Lucas logic maybe some 4A kids had some padded records and didn't belong at State lol

I am not sure if you are talking about me as the one knocking the wrestlers with a losing record or not, but if that is the case, I was not knocking these wrestlers, I have no clue who these 2 wrestlers wreslted all year, I am just trying to make since of the vicious circle this fourm keeps taking and try to put some of these post into perspective. As I said before I tried to follow adn support 321A and 5A (western ks) this yeas. So I am not trying to take anything away from these kids that made it to state. I think the only way to end this argument is to convince more kids to go out for wrestling to fill all the spots on the teams.

not knocking you only Lucas

In what class Larry? Please remember 5a had 45 of them. 4a had 3 and 3a had 3

I never said they didnt, Just said they should not be able to.

I left Kansas to get a better job! My mom lives in Salina, I will stop by and say hello next time I am back home whats your address?

You must be counting the entire state. how many of them had 45 in one class?

IM guessing the average 9-12 kids per bracket. compared to 4-6 you know only twice as many kids in regionals in 4a.Its going to be a lil bit harder!

Not sure and dont care Im only here for a few more months Texas does not care about wrestling its a football state. My cousin played for euless trinity one of the best teams in the nation. There wrestling program was not school funded the parents drove the kids to the meet. This is a very large 6a type of school. With a football stadium that seats 20,000

I was simply trying to show you that those states had similar situations. They are based on people qualifying. I don't know of any states that require a wrestler to have a winning record or have a certain win total to reach state.

See why I quit arguing with him....it is POINTLESS.

I know a wrestler very well that finished the season 25-19 in 6A. In those 46 matches, 25 matches were against wrestlers that qualified for State (3 in 4A, the rest in 5/6A) and nine of those matches were against wrestlers that placed at State. (1 in 4A, the other eight in 5/6A). I am not sure how the Tulsa Union wrestler or the two Missouri wrestlers he faced did in their respective states, but they were pretty dang solid too.

My point is, this wrestler lost almost twenty matches during the year and still placed at State. This is probably because he faced incredible competition all year, not because he had a great record.

ROTFLMAO!!!

I wish I knew how to do cool stuff like that.

I did not get to see 5A state this year, but I usually do follow 6A and 5A often. This is my first year following 4A. Prior to moving I taught and coached in a 6A school for 3 years and I have sent guys with losing records to state. Some of these kids beat very good wrestlers to earn their spot in the state tournament. I also had a wrestler one year who was 8-20 and was the 8 seed in his regional. He lost his first match then finished 3rd in his regional. He gets to state and wins a couple matches. He wrestles kids state and finishes 4th beating state placers from 4A and 321A in the process. Sometimes the light bulb goes on late in the year and I think every kid who makes it to state works hard and puts forth the effort needed to go.

Jason Storm

Wrong, the only way to end this argument is to ban Lucas from the forum.
He should have been banned last year when he made the horrendous comments about a physically challenged kid and all the other asinine derogatory comments he has made over the last two years.

This forum is for the betterment of Kansas wrestling. Lucas is not interested in bettering Kansas wrestling. He just want to get on the forum and rant. If he were truly interested in making Kansas wrestling better, he would go through the appropriate channels and discuss his issues with the appropriate people. No, he gets on the forum and bashes classes and towns that OUR Kansas kids wrestle for. Does he not understand that when he bashes a class or town, he is bashing OUR kids, their families and their programs and communities? He even bashes OUR kids with losing records. Does he not know that those same kids that he declares are not worthy and their parents read the forum? Does he not care about how insulting he is and how he is insulting them? Apparently not. And if that is the case, then that only justifies my suggestion even more that he be banned.

This whole thing is ridiculous and I can't believe that we let it go on. Lucas wants people to listen to and consider his points but he doesn't listen to or consider others points. He wants people to respect him and his opinion but he doesn't respect other people and their opinions. Lucas is a terrible reflection on Kansas wrestling. He is making us all look bad. He has already been pretty much denounced by Abilene and that should say enough right there. What does he think that people from other states think when they read about this stuff? Does he even care? Apparently not. And if he doesn't care about Kansas wrestling to the point that he is embarrasing with no regard, then that only justifies my suggestion even more that he be banned.

So I make a motion that Lucas be banned from the forum until he can prove that he can follow the guidelines and be a positive reflection on Kansas wrestling and try to be mature and professional and do things the right way instead of saying terrible things about others to advance his point. He is clearly being a selfish person that just needs attention.

Excellent post X!! I dont usually read much of his stuff as its really not all that interesting, but I thought he was way over the line by publishing on this forum a list of kids that might've had a sub .500 record that made it to state, I would consider that a personal attack on every wrestler and the moderator should delete it. Most likely those kids didnt miss a practice and worked as hard as some of the best kids in our state. Example what if wrestler X with an above 500 record shows up @ Bobcat unseeded gets tossed in 1st match against Pursel loses, gets to the backside wins one then wrestles an Engles, or Durossete, or any other state placer quality kid and leaves the tourney 1-2 and this repeats itself 3-5 times at other tourneys? The thanks he gets is seeing his name posted on this forum berated by a guy that doesnt even attend Ks high school tournaments. Very unfair!!

Kevin Seybold

1.Please send me the link where I was making "Horrendous comments about a Physically challenged kid"? I have asked you several times to do so you have yet to do it. I told a story that happened to me while attending a Camp in ARK CITY. I did in no way shape or form insult the kid, I simply typed a memory of Ark City, THAT REALLY HAPPENED TO ME. IT REALLY HAPPENED IT IS THE TRUTH, I AM SORRY IF YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

2. I have came up with ways to improve KANSAS wrestling JUST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT LIKE THEM DOES NOT MEAN I AM NOT TRYING!,
a. combine 5a 6a so you get better QUALITY WRESTLERS IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT
b.SINCE YOU DO NOT LIKE THAT IDEA I also mentioned doing 2 regional's and having an 8 man bracket keeping 5a and 6a separate tournys.

3. I am not bashing kids by putting there name on a list, I simply took there name and record from the State Tourny Bracket and compiled a list. If you want to be mad at someone be mad at the state for putting there records on the bracket. I never once said anything bad about those kids on that list. Again you cannot handle the truth! those kids really do have losing records! Did I ever say they were BAD WRESTLERS?.... NO I DID NOT!!!!!

4. I have admitted to being on that list my self my soph year in high school I was 1-30 for 5a Salina Central 5 man at regionals if i win i go to state with a 2-29 record, did you not read that?

5. I have never asked for anyone to respect me, I could care less what you think about me XGHSWC, I could care less what James Stout and Curtis Ryan thinks about me. I know where I stand with people back home, Im not worried a bit.

6. I do not care what people from other states think either not really sure why you do?

7. Call Bill Christner, see what he thinks of me. Call Steve Wedel Call Tom Taplin, Call Robert Zey, call Deb Lytle Call Dave Robinson You think because James Stout was being politically correct people in my Home town have denounced me? You have no idea what you are talking about, James was covering his ass.

8. How am I selfish? Who have I bashed? You are so easily offended by the truth. So, if a kid loses a match can you not talk about it on the form? That might hurt his feelings right, If a kid has a losing record it is not mentionable, that might hurt his feelings too? If I tell a TRUE story about 4 other heavy weights not wanting to catch a disease by wrestling with a kid that came into practice smelling like pee for the 3rd day in a row. Does that make me mean? Am I bashing that kid, or am I just telling a true story?

9. I make a motion that you be banned for not following the forum rules.

Straight from MR Salyer himself

Quote:
Board Rules
This is a free forum, created for the purpose of promoting Kansas wrestling, and those who wrestle, through the exchange of thoughts and suggestions, and for the recognition of the accomplishments of those involved in our sport. There are just two basic rules that are necessary to keep in mind. First, remember that this is a family oriented forum, and is regularly viewed by young wrestlers. Second, "cheap shots" will not be tolerated. If you are going to post a message critical of an individual, group or idea, you must give your true name and/or email address. Be willing to stand behind your comments, or keep them to yourself.


You will find I signed my name, as always. My target on the other hand, while taking a "cheap shot" did not have the integrity or courage to sign his name.



A few text I get from Beeson, daily now,

"people from Abilene told me that your father had a one nighter with a stripper or a whore and oops here you were"

"speaking of parents...was your mom a stripper or a whore...I cant remember... and why is your last name different than your dads?"

He then went on to bash my father for nevering wining a 3a state title." wow looking to see how good ole coach Lamar is.... not really impressed he couldnt win a 3a title...disappointing Im sure...thats why you never bash 123a....lmfao" "couldnt even place higher than 4th and your talking $%^& on everyone else?

"and the Best Coach in the state still has more state Championships than your beloved daddy whose last name he wouldnt give you"

"Abilene had two good years.... that doesnt make you a wrestling Dynasty...Just makes you a two hit wonder team...It Happens...try winning 19 out of 40 years."

"im starting to see where this is really coming from...Wayne Jackson and Ark City hogging all of the state championships...hurt feelings cuz your daddy wasnt a good coach?"

"who did your dad coach for in High School...and did he ever win a team Championship?"

"did he win so many your having trouble counting them all...or youR ashamed?"

XGHSWC You get upset with me for speaking the truth about 5a wrestling, while for two years now I have had to put up Beeson and his crap behind the forum.

X bottom line 5a wrestling had 45 kids with losing records, 31 of witch went 0-2 giving up TEAM POINTS THAT HELPS TEAMS WIN STATE TOURNYS. SO IMO AND ONLY MY OPINION A 1234A TEAM TITLE MEANS MORE BECAUSE THEIR ARE NOT 45 KIDS IN IT WITH LOSING RECORDS, OF WHICH 41 OF THE 45 LOST THEIR FIRST MATCH 3 OF THEM BEAT ANOTHER KID WITH A LOSING RECORD AND ONE OF THEM HAD A BYE. 31 OF THE 45 WENT 0-2, 10 KIDS WON THERE SECOND ROUND MATCHS BEATING ANOTHER KID WITH A LOSING RECORDED. IF I REMEMBER RIGHT 3 OF THE 45 WENT 2-2 OR BETTER I THINK ONE OF THE KIDS WON 3 MATCHES.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ EXCEPT FOR MY OPINION UP THERE THOSE ARE FACTS, I AM SORRY IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THOSE FACTS, IM SORRY IF YOU THINK I AM BASHING A KID BY STATING FACTS, YOU SHOULD DO SOMETHING TO CHANGE THOSE FACTS, BECAUSE IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN NEXT YEAR FACT I WILL POST THE SAME THING.

SEE YA NEXT YEAR!!!!!

As a competitor of the 5a state tournament, in my opinion classes 5a and 6a do not need to be combined. Throught the whole year you wrestle many different teams in all classes, as a senior I like the distinction between classes. I just moved here from Virginia beach and was a competitor in the state tournament there where there is only 3 classes which makes it harder to to make it to the state tournament but coming here the distinction was better and more organized. I understand your opinion lbaker that you see a lot of losing record kids in the state tournament (I was not one of them) but it doesn't take from the fact that those kids did something that many others could never do which is get the chance to compete in the state tournament. Whether they went 0-2 or not they still were given the opportunity to compete and everyone of them earned their right and placed in the top 4 in their region.

I just quickly skimmed through the results of the 5A regionals, and it appears to me that many of these wrestlers with losing records either beat or placed higher than the wrestlers with 500 or better records in their brackets in regionals. This shows me that these wrestlers were the better wrestler on that given day, and they deserved the opportunity to be at the state tournament. There is no way anyone can argue this point, as that is the results of the regional tournament. This is what is great about the sport of wrestling. It is not decided on paper or by records going into a tournament. If you are the best wrestler you still have to beat everyone, or you are not the best that day. CONGRATS TO EVERY WRESTLER THAT COMPETED IN THE STATE TOURNAMENT, NO MATTER IF YOUR RECORD WAS 40-0 OR 2-15.

AMEN!

Mr. Baker, my old grand pappy used tell me" he who says the most , knows the least"
You have proved him right!

Very nice post. Welcome to Kansas wrestling.

The only thing I'm having trouble figuring out is this. If 5a and 6a are so weak and Lucass hates Ark City as bad as he obviously does. Then why would he be at a camp in Ark City? Just a thought.

WOW! I am appaled by the threads on this. Who cares? Let kids wrestle. What happened to "it's about the kids?" Apparently I dont care about records. And neither should YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So next year i'm going to go 0-14, go to regionals win one match against a kid with mental disabilities, and go 1-16 and make it to state. You expect ANY kid to feel accomplished with that? Thats just putting them on a stage to get embarrassed.

You have mental disabilities.

Well I am not sure who you are, but you just embarrassed yourself by making this statement. But if you do go to regionals with 0-14 record and you win a match or beat other kids out of the bracket, than you deserve to go to state, if there is only 4 in the bracket and you advance with a 0-16 record, than maybe there will be a gripe. JMO

PS: post your name, so we can follow your season next year.

Lance Geyer.

Oh no, the wrestling universe has collapsed some athletes with a losing records made it to the big dance in St. Louis.

At 125, Camden Eppert a sophomore from Purdue came out of the Big Ten Tournament with a 12-15 record.

At 133, another Big Ten sophomore from Penn State, Frank Martellotti, qualified with an 8-9 mark.

Looks like the NCAA should just cancel the tournament.

NCAA Wresting Tournament

141 Goetti (Iowa St.) is 11-11??? only a .500 record

141 Mattingly (C. Michigan) is 15-22

133 Aruajua (Cornell) is 5-5? half of his wins were at regional qualifier

Oh no!!!! Having those guys on the bracket cheapens the event. Bet all the other National Qualifiers now feel like it's nothing.

Yep, they might as well be wrestling in the Kansas 5A State Tournament.

There are some 5A wrestlers in the tournament.

Yeah but they have winning records.

... and once in a lifetime, Derick Cope wins the Daytona 500!

Does anyone remember Mark Branch? Freshman year qualified for NCAA DI nationals with an 8-9 record. Didnt do much, finished the tournament with a 5-0 record...

Record going in doesnt matter much, just where you finish!

It only matters to one poster on this site.

can't imagine how all those KS wrestlers in the brackets are all from 5a/6a. i mean all that wrestling in such weak HS regionals, maybe they're well rested cause they had it sooooo easy. yep that's it not well trained, battle tested, they're well rested.

Sorry fellas but I think Lucas might have logged off until next year.

I poked the bear...he has a doozy of a post coming.

NCAA Wresting Tournament

Looks like your supporting Lucas's point. 2 out of 330 make it with a losing record or less than 1%. But 20% qualify for state at 5A. 1% is an anomaly, 20% is too much. Anyway I know Camdem from Purdue, and he had a stacked schedule this year and he missed some of the easier matches.

I don't have a problem with kids qualifying for state with losing record, the problem in Kansas is its statistically too easy to qualify for state, as the bar is set low. 50% of potential varsity spots qualify for state in 5A or 6A. With all the open spots, more than 50% of varsity wrestlers qualify, that's why you have so many losing records.

You guys can huff and puff about these kids earned it and they deserve recognition. But I think its a valid discussion to look at the qualifying process in Kansas.

Here is the deal. Look at it, try to change it, hypothesize about alternate outcomes, throw statistics at it until the cows come home. If nothing changes, then the wrestlers that make it to State deserve to be there. They are still busting their tails in practice (helping teammates), they are still there at the end of the year, they are still sacrificing to make weight, and if they happen to fall into a bracket that presents an opportunity to make it to State, and they make it happen, then they deserve to be there.

Are we still arguing this?

Seasons over! Think I will check out of the net until November. Can pick back up on this discussion then.

Been an interesting season. Haven't had this much fun since grandma caught her t_t in the wringer.

Wins at this level are a little tougher to come by. It is not a apples to apples comparison. I know Goettl and Araujua. Goettle was a Fargo Champ. Aragujua an All American. His dad was a World Champ from Russia.

Their total season records were most likely much better before they stripped the wins against D2, NJCAA, D3, and NAIA wrestlers.

Add a few more to the list:
141 Scott Mattingly (CMICH) 15-22
157 Brian Tanen (LEHIGH) 7-15
285 Peter Capone (OSU) 14-15
285 Cole Tobin (WISC) 8-16

That makes 6 total wrestlers with losing records. There were also a quite few kids with .500 or one win above records, but I didn't want to count them up.

Even more interesting there are 4 wrestlers from the Big Ten with losing records in the tournament. Must be the worst conference in college wrestling.

We need to go with

48 Biggest schools with wrestling (4 12 team regionals)
64 Next biggest schools with wrestling (4 16 team regionals)
The rest...

At most, we only need three classifications. (Someone list the schools that do NOT have programs)

BIG 48 Total enrollment 71,512

Wichita-East 2308
Olathe East 2023
Olathe South 2005
Wichita-North 1983
Garden City 1976
Olathe North 1920
Derby 1891
Shawnee Mission West 1826
Shawnee Mission Northwest 1800
Shawnee Mission East 1797
Dodge City 1782
Topeka-Washburn Rural 1756
Junction City 1753
Olathe Northwest 1730
Topeka 1702
OP-Blue Valley Northwest 1659
Manhattan 1599
Wichita-Southeast 1561
Wichita-Heights 1556
Shawnee Mission North 1546
OP- Blue Valley North 1535
Wichita-Haysville Campus 1532
Lawrence 1525
Lawrence-Free State 1509
Maize 1489
Wichita-Northwest 1446
Shawnee Mission South 1408
Wichita-South 1403
Hutchinson 1395
Gardner-Edgerton 1345
OP-Blue Valley West 1334
Leavenworth 1289
Wichita-West 1281
Stilwell-Blue Valley 1260
Kansas City-Wyandotte 1224
Liberal 1203
Emporia 1176
Kansas City-JC Harmon 1171
Topeka-Seaman 1165
Wichita-Bishop Carroll 1150
Shawnee-Mill Valley 1140
Kansas City-Turner 1139
Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights 1109
Salina-South 1106
Topeka West 1024
Newton 1020
OP-St. Thomas Aquinas 981
Kansas City-Washington 980


Middle 64 (Someone please let me know which schools don't have a program) Total enrollment 37524

Great Bend 952
Salina-Central 939
OP-Blue Valley Southwest 909
Goddard 903
Wichita-Kapaun Mount Carmel 901
Lansing 859
Valley Center 811
Hays 800
Andover 786
Kansas City-FL Schlagle 778
Arkansas City 765
Topeka-Highland Park 753
Andover Central 747
Goddard-Eisenhower 740
SM-Bishop Miege 740
Winfield 720
Pittsburg 717
Bonner Springs 709
Maize South 697
Lenexa-St. James Academy 689
McPherson 683
De Soto 679
Kansas City-Sumner Academy 642
Paola 638
Buhler 636
Ottawa 633
Spring Hill 625
Tonganoxie 620
Basehor-Linwood 607
Rose Hill 582
Mulvane 581
Independence 570
Chanute 565
Augusta 560
El Dorado 557
Fort Scott 555
Towanda-Circle 545
Altamont-Labette County 544
Kansas City-Piper 537
Coffeyville-Field Kindley 517
Topeka-Hayden 500
Louisburg 492
Wellington 486
Abilene 484
Atchison 468
Baldwin 445
Ulysses 443
Wamego 434
Andale 428
Eudora 418
Parsons 393
Iola 386
Clearwater 384
Carbondale-Santa Fe Trail 363
Osawatomie 355
Girard 343
Chapman 338
Kansas City-Bishop Ward 331
Garnett-Anderson County 327
Pratt 327
Holton 326
Columbus 319
LaCygne-Prairie View 319
Concordia 313
Lindsborg-Smoky Valley 311

The rest...242 Schools (some don't have wrestling) Total enrollment 32,369

Clay Center Community 306
Meriden-Jefferson West 301
Perry-Lecompton 301
Wichita-Trinity Academy 299
Hugoton 295
Colby 291
Hoyt-Royal Valley 288
Larned 286
Nickerson 280
Baxter Springs 279
Hesston 266
Wichita-Collegiate 264
Cheney 261
Hiawatha 261
Haven 258
Burlington 254
Frontenac 252
Kingman 251
Easton-Pleasant Ridge 250
Goodland 249
Riverton 249
Hays-TMP-Marian 247
Holcomb 247
Scott Community 245
St. George-Rock Creek 244
Gypsum-Southeast of Saline 241
Silver Lake 240
Halstead 234
Marysville 234
Russell 234
Beloit 233
Douglass 230
Neodesha 230
Anthony/Harper-Chaparral
Cherryvale 229
Caney-Caney Valley 228
Council Grove 226
Effingham-Atchison Co Community
Sabetha 226
Wellsville 225
Cherokee-Southeast 223
Conway Springs 223
Riley County 222
Osage City 221
Norton Community 219
Galena 218
Pomona-West Franklin 215
Wichita-The Independent 212
Minneapolis 211
Garden Plain 210
Rossville 201
Belle Plaine 196
Phillipsburg 195
Fredonia 191
Wathena-Riverside 191
Kismet-Southwestern Hts. 189
Cimarron 188
Richmond-Central Heights 187
Atchison-Maur Hill-Mount Academy
Horton 183
Leon-Bluestem 183
Hillsboro 181
Lyons 181
Marion 181
Lakin 179
Hoisington 175
Sedgwick 175
Erie 174
Eureka 172
Salina-Sacred Heart 171
Seneca-Nemaha Valley 171
St. Marys 170
Humboldt 168
Hutchinson-Trinity Cath. 166
McLouth 166
Pittsburg-St. Marys Colgan 166
* Salina-St. John's Military Academy
Whitewater-Remington 163
Moundridge 162
Eskridge-Mission Vly. 158
Prairie Village-KCC 156
Sterling 156
Arma-Northeast 155
Ellsworth 154
Smith Center 153
Elbing-Berean Acad. 150
Brookville-Ell-Saline 148
Inman 146
Shawnee-Maranatha Academy
Herington 145
Meade 145
Oswego 145
Lyndon 144
Medicine Lodge 144
Mound City-Jayhawk Linn 144
Oakley 144
Winchester-Jefferson County North
Valley Falls 142
Sublette 140
Belleville-Republic Co. 139
Washington County 139
Uniontown 138
Bennington 137
Allen-Northern Hts. 131
Alma-Wabaunsee 131
Elkhart 129
Oskaloosa 129
Plainville 129
Ellinwood 128
Holton-Jackson Hts. 126
Claflin-Central Plains 125
Greensburg-Kiowa Co. 125
Yates Center 125
Leoti-Wichita County 124
Oxford 124
Cottonwood Falls-Chase County
Hill City 121
Johnson-Stanton Co. 120
Ellis 119
Leavenworth-Immaculata 119
Oberlin-Decatur Comm. 117
Highland-Doniphan West 114
Onaga 114
Solomon 114
Syracuse 114
Burlingame 113
Wakeeney-Trego Comm. 113
Canton-Galva 111
Troy 111
Pleasanton 110
Ness City 109
Kinsley 107
Moran-Marmaton Vly. 107
Sedan 107
Atwood-Rawlins Co. 106
Lincoln 106
Lebo 103
Howard-West Elk 102
Peabody-Burns 102
Melvern-Marais Des Cygnes Valley
Pratt-Skyline 100
Little River 99
Olpe 99
Jetmore-Hodgeman Co. 99
St. John-Hudson 99
Downs-Lakeside 98
La Crosse 98
Langdon-Fairfield
Quinter 98
St. Francis 98
Burden-Central 97
Wakefield 97
Blue Rapids-Valley Hts. 96
Lost Springs-Centre 96
Macksville 95
Mankato-Rock Hills 95
Coldwater-South Central 93
Montezuma-South Gray 92
Udall 92
Deerfield 91
Osborne 91
Scandia-Pike Valley 91
Lawrence-Bishop Seabury Academy
Spearville 89
Hartford 88
Hoxie 87
Randolph-Blue Valley 87
White City 87
Satanta 86
Stockton 86
Minneola 84
St. Paul 84
Madison 81
Goessel 80
Hanover 80
Pretty Prairie 80
South Haven 80
Rosalia-Flinthills 78
Clyde-Clifton Clyde 77
Kensington-Thunder Ridge
Waverly 77
Linn 76
Burrton 75
Centralia 75
Caldwell 74
Leroy-Southern Coffey Co. 74
Ashland 71
Sylvan Grove-Sylvan-Lucas Unified
Bucklin 70
Dighton 70
Norwich 70
Ingalls 69
Stafford 69
Victoria 68
Chetopa 67
Kiowa-South Barber 67
Sharon Springs-Wallace County
Wallace County 66
Baileyville-B&B 65
Rexford-Golden Plains 65
Frankfort 64
Otis-Bison 64
Hope 63
Logan 62
McPherson-Elyria Christian
Colony-Crest 60
Longton-Elk Valley 59
Tribune-Greeley County 59
Grainfield-Wheatland/Grinnell
Wetmore 58
Olathe-Kansas State School for the Deaf
Axtell 56
Fowler 56
Buffalo-Altoona Midway 55
Moscow 55
Argonia 53
Cunningham 53
Dexter 53
Rolla 53
Tescott 53
Natoma 52
Almena-Northern Valley 50
Glasco 50
Wilson 50
Bird City-Cheylin 49
Junction City-St. Xavier 49
Palco 48
Ransom-Western Plains 47
Attica 44
Chase 44
Bern 43
Weskan 39
Beloit-St. Johns 38
Hutchinson-Central Christian
Cedar Vale 34
Hamilton 28
Healy 28
Miltonvale 27
Brewster 26
Rozel-Pawnee Heights 23
Winona-Triplains 23
Tipton Catholic 14


Arguably we should go to two classes:

BIG 48 total enrollment 71,000 plus
SMALL 306 total enrollment 69,000 plus...


With only three classifications we could have all state tournaments in one site, especially if we expanded it to a third day.

Cokely,

Totally right. Kansas has so many kids qualifying for state, it can't even manage the tournament at one site. And as a result they lose money on the tournaments. 3 classes would be good. 2 would be just right. My opinion is when you qualify everybody it takes the recognition from your outstanding athletes. You know these kids, the ones that wrestle year round and go to camps and put the time in. They now get grouped in with the ordinary wrestler on the team. Set up a system that rewards the elite wrestlers, make the term "state qualifer" means something.

Kansas is a low population state with a lot of wrestling classifications. Nebraska and Oklahoma are just as guilty of this and Missouri maybe a higher population state, but they don't need four classes.

Look at the eastern states,(NJ,OH,PA,MI, NY, IL, IN,IA) they have fewer classes and higher populations. The competition pushes them and raises their levels. If you're a state qualifier in these states, you're a stud and people know it.

Just like beating horses.

OK,

2% of the guys at the NCAAs have losing records. But you know were comparing apples to Oranges when we look at state tournament and NCAA qualifying.

It is what it is. Have you paid attention to some of the horrible teams/records that qualify for the State Football playoffs in every class? I'm talking about 2-7...in some cases 1-8. Losing records dot the State Basketball landscape. 130 feet javelin throws qualify an individual for State Track in one regional while a 160 thrower in another regional stays home. Bottom line...it always gets sorted out at respective state events. These wrestlers with losing records aren't placing, so to me, it's no big deal.

Maybe too many classes in other sports too. Also should make state qualification on overall record. Not just some 3 game pre season scheduled regional.

Have to admit my Alma Mater was one of those 2-7 teams.

[quote=fan of the sport "Set up a system that rewards the elite wrestlers,"
[/quote]

There already is. Its called the podium. The more "elite" you are, the higher you go.

There already is. Its called the podium. The more "elite" you are, the higher you go.[/quote]

Do we need 56 podiums in Kansas?

I agree that we need to figure out a way to fill the brackets. But I cant help trying to visualize the future of peoples views, if we combine all these schools, for bigger and "better" quilifying tournament. Someone or prob. more than one person will be pi$$e@ off becuase thier kid is ranked in the top 5 of the state, but his reginal was stacked and he did not make it to state, because of the way everything set up. No matter what is decided, somebody is not going to be happy. JMO

NO there are 4 podiums, 1 per class. debating weight classes is a another argument, but nationally not just KS.

I know I am going to regret this but I would like to add a thought to this subject if I may. I coached wrestling for three decades in this state and did most of it in class 5A. For most of that time, that classification was hands down the toughest in the state. Like any of them, it rises and falls with the trends of the programs, no big deal. As coaches and parents, educators and providers, we only have a couple of obligations. We are given these jobs for one real reason and that is to help kids as they build their experience base for real life and the state wrestling tourney is not real life. We are here to help them experience exciting and stimulating days before things get real serious and sometimes ugly.

So, once in a while things get a little slim and some (wonderful) kids with less than stellar records make it to the state meet. Tell you a secret, when they walk in that meet in that big parade, they are just as thrilled and just a worthy as that kid beside him with that sparkling 40-0 record. It means as much to his parents, and to his school, but most of all to him as it does that three timer that he is following. They don't all have to be nationally ranked wrestlers of renown to deserve to be thrilled a little in this small window of their lives.

I coached 27 kids in my career who are no longer living on this earth, nine who are or were in prison, many who are very very successful in their vocational pursuits and hundreds who have wonderful families and meaningful careers and I didn't have much to do with their outcome, but I hope that I helped them to feel like winners and that day when they got to walk in with that parade was not the high point of their life, but something thrilling and fullfilling for that moment in time. After the first round most of those guys are gone anyway, so then all of you can get down to watching those guys that you think are so worthy of the state tourney. Fellas, I think we got to remember who we all do this thing for and somewhere along the line, not everybody does. That is a shame.

Maybe you're right, start with ripping those district champ patches off the letter jackets. make a statement start small, move your way up the chain. i mean if you walk into the KSHSAA meeting complaining about weak classes with your 2-7 patch on, you've lost all credibility.

No regret required Coach. Most likely they are not as good, but they are just as worthy. They have put in the work just like the 40-0 guy.

Well coach or former coach tell me something those kids that you talk about walking in the parade do not exist in 4a and 3a. So is it fair to those kids? Why is it that in 5a we allow the below .500 wrestlers, (45 of them) get to experience the parade but in 4a and 3a only 6 of those kids get to experience it. I can tell you why,

Logic tells me that if you have 4, 8 man regionals 50% of the kids in 5a make it to State.

Logic also tells me that in 4a if you have 4 16 man regionals 20% of the kids make it to state.

5a had 360 wrestlers in regionals this year, trying to fill 224 spots. That means that 62% of all wrestlers in 5a compete in the State Tournament.

4a had 603 wrestlers in regionals this year, also trying to fill 224 spots. That means that 37% of the kids in 4a wrestler in state.

That is the true reason that 45 wrestlers made it in to 5a stae this year with less than .500 records you take 62% of the field.

Thats not elite at all. 5a needs to drop down to 2 regionals and have an 8 man brackets at state. This would put you a 31% of the 5a wrestlers competing in the state tournament, also this would eliminate those guaranteed losses like you say that only help rack up team points.

Also you guys keep saying these kids earned there way to the state tournament. Well I disagree 5a had 13 kids make it to state this year with out HAVING TO WIN A MATCH! 13 KIDS ALSO 85 kids made it with only winning one match. 126 kids in 5a had to win 2 matches. 0 kids had to win 3 matches!0 kids had to win 4 matches!

In 4a 4 kids had to win 4 matches to make it to state, what about the 80 kids that had to win 3 matches, or how about the 140 that had to win 2

Im not talking total matches wrestled Im talking matches to qualify. Why is it so much easier to get to the 5a tournament. It should be that same for every kid in the sate. We should not give 5a a pass because they cannot fill a roster.

I don't care about any of that. I don't "keep saying" anything. I think this is a non issue. I been around a long time, and in that time each classification have had their days and years where they were the "best" and other divisions were having a hard time. It doesn't matter to me what you think of how "hard" it is to get to the state in 4A. I know that is the point you are trying to make. Big deal, it is different in every weight class and in every division, and it changes by the year. We are in the business of helping kids, not eliminating opportunities for them to compete. I think this topic is stupid and without merit. All your stats and comparisons are a waste of time for me.

Lucas hates Ark City, end of story. He does not care about the sport of wrestling in Kansas. He volunteers NO time, he donates NO resources, you will never change his mind. Lucas only cares about Lucas' beef with Beeson. This is all an elaborate ploy to get back at Chad. He still hasn't taken down his weak class 5a football patch. he still won't admit that others have offered better solutions, for a more equal state series. he simply wants to get under Beesons skin.

Lucas,

This is what we have to work with. When a wrestler qualifies for State, regardless of their record, regardless of their High School classification, regardless of whatever else, then they should be proud of their accomplishment. To come on this forum and downplay what they have achieved is not doing the wrestling community any favors.

This is what we have to work with. When a wrestler qualifies for State, regardless of their record, regardless of their High School classification, regardless of whatever else, then they should be proud of their accomplishment. To come on this forum and downplay what they have achieved is not doing the wrestling community any favors.

I been on forums in other states, and lived IN & OH and know people in the community. They would be just offended as you are if somebody tried to suggest to increase the number of classes and affect generate more state qualifiers, state placers and state champions. They would say you are watering down are sport, decreasing the competition level and downplaying the achievements that are kids have acquired. I thinks its ironic that their reaction is similar. Instead of getting offended, maybe we should have an open mind and have a peaceful debate about the pros and cons of each situation.

I'm not criticizing any kids achievement has done in the past, but we should try to open our minds to new ideas that may or may not improve wrestling in Kansas. I think we get stuck doing the same thing we've always done and think thats the best way.

I'd like to see you're 5 best reason why the class system that exists currently is so good or fair.

1. It may not be good or fair, but that is not for me to decide.
2. It might be good and fair, but that is not for me to determine.
3. The current system with the classifications that are in place requires that four wrestlers out of each Regional qualifies for State, regardless of their record or their classification.
4. Wrestling is a great sport, the most demanding sport in my opinion, and I would like to see more wrestlers participate.
5. Watered down? Do you really understand the grind that these young adults go through? I really don't care what people say, the wrestlers that make it to State should be appreciated, not because they are the best, because they have worked hard and stuck it out in the most demanding sport that they can compete in while in High School.

Let me be the first to say that I don't care what Ohio, Illinois, Wisconsin, or any other state would say about the way we do things here. Oklahoma has five classes, and nobody would say a word about that. Missouri has four and nobody is on here having an identity crisis about that. If you all like those Big 10 states so much then go there and put your kids in one of their programs and have a ball. We do what we do. Get used to it.

Bout time people got over the huge inferiority complex they have here. If Ohio was so darn good then why are you here????

BUMP!!! Have seen the big boys use that expression.

I think that means I agree, WELL SAID, Right On, Hell Yes------

Bill Mason

hahahaha, Bill you know a guy that coached in Caney ain't gonna let that go haha.

I don't think he hates Ark City as much as he would like for us to think. Dug this old post up, it almost looks like he has a fondness for The Purple and The Gold!!! I'm starting to think that it MIGHT just be me that he doesn't like.

i really don't think the topic is offensive. the delivery is. i sent you a PM on this. read other posts on the same topic. Contrarian has posted on this subject, Cokeley has posted on this subject, their delivery was mature, well written, and fair. this topic attacks one class, and 45 young men who have busted their a$$ all year long.


1- equality- the system is designed to give kids the opportunity- no matter what their school size
2- quantity- the more STUDENTS who are involved in positive extra ciricular activities
3- parity- combining 5a and 6a into 1 super class would flip the coin on the weak class argument- wouldn't solve anything
4- excitement- you admitted that your football team qualified for the state playoffs with a 2-7 record. how was the atmosphere during those district games?
5- opportunity- to combine classes would take away an opportunity for some athletes, cutting classifications because some records at the state tournament is like cutting gym class, art class, and auto class because no one every graduated, then opened an auto mechanics shop, art studio, or fitness gym?????

i would be all for changing it up, if you can keep those 5 things in mind

notice it didn't include fair, nothing in life is fair- no solution will make everyone happy! someone is going to feel it's unfair.

give me your top 5 reasons that less classes make, better athletes. keep in mind that texas football has 5 classes plus 8 man and 6 man. you can't argue texas football. the eastern states have greater population, smaller distances, and more exposure to college wrestling.

[quote]Maybe you're right, start with ripping those district champ patches off the letter jackets. make a statement start small, move your way up the chain. i mean if you walk into the KSHSAA meeting complaining about weak classes with your 2-7 patch on, you've lost all credibility.

Headup,

I graduated 24 years ago, so I didn't get the patch. I think its kind of novel with a 2-7 record, and I would feel funny wearing one even if I was on the team. But KS football has a huge issue with with regional disparity. But thats an issue for another site.
So I don'tunderstand how I lose credibility, because my Alma Mater got an extremely favorable draw in a football regional.

Headup,

You have some good points. And I agree one class shouldn't be singled out. Lucas is getting carried away with his attack on 5A as many a year its been the strongest class and Ark City is probably the most successful team in KS history. I'll give you the 5 reasons tomorrow, as time is running out tonight.

the point i'm making here is that all sports have disparity at times. look at the NFL over the past few years, the team that "squeaked" into the playoffs have done pretty good. so records, don't mean so much. I was on a state championship team that lost 2 of our first 3 games. both to missouri schools, we rolled everyone is KS, so sometimes a team, a kid, gets in that doesn't look so good on paper, then the switch hits, and they are in the dance.

you may not feel you would lose credibilty because you weren't on the team, but why not go back to that school and denounce their accomplishments, your credibilty and reputation will suffer.

every sport has an underdog story, if we simply take away that opportunity, we will not be growing or improving anything.

i will say this. records dont really mean anything. but not having to win a match to get to state shows there is a problem with the system not the kids but the system. thats all i will ever complain about on this topic.

I LIVE IN TEXAS, PLEASE TELL ME WHAT I CAN DO now? WHEN I WAS GOING TO SCHOOL IN CONCORDIA, I WENT IN AND "VOLUNTEERED" MY TIME WITH THE HEAVY WEIGHTS, I HAVE WORKED OUT WITH SILVER LAKE KIDS I HAVE WORKED OUT WITH A BONER SPRINGS KID NOW AT LCCC. When I was working in Oklahoma I worked out with the heavy weights there as well. I helped Tonginoxie run there kids tourny a year ago, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME, PLEASE DO NOT SPEAK FOR ME AND WHAT I DONT DO.

SO YOU THINK IT IS OK THAT 13 WRESTLERS IN 5A MADE IT WITHOUT HAVING TO WIN A MATCH? WHILE A HANDFUL OF KIDS IN 4A HAD TO WIN 4 MATCHES AND WRESTLE 5! WHY DO WE HOLD THE 5A KIDS HAND AND BABY THEM THROUGH TO STATE? Would you be proud if you went 0-2 at regionals and made it thru to state?

REGUARDING #5 PLEASE TELL THAT TO THE 379 KIDS IN 4A THAT WENT HOME AND DID NOT GET TO PARTICIPATE IN THE STATE TOURNY BECAUSE WE HAVE DIFFERENT CRITERIA FOR 5A SCHOOLS. EVERY DAMN KID IN THE STATE FIGHTS IT OUT ALL YEAR AND GOES THROUGH THE GRIND. LETS BE FAIR TO ALL NOT JUST THE BIG SCHOOLS! TOP 20% SHOULD WRESTLE AT STATE. OR MAYBE SINCE YOU DONT WANT TO CHANGE WE SHOULD QUALIFY 8 MEN IN 4A REGIONALS, SO AT STATE WE COULD HAVE 32 MAN BRACKETS AT 60% OF THE KIDS IN 4A CAN PARTICIPATE. PRETTY STUPID RIGHT?

OKLAHOMA HAS 8 MAN STATE BRACKET. http://www.ossaa.com/Sports/Wrestling.aspx

MISSOURI ALSO HAS 16 MAN REGIONALS FOR ALL 4 CLASSES. MISSOURI ONLY TAKES THE TOP 20% LIKE WE DO IN 4A

I DO NOT HATE ARK CITY JUST CHAD BEESON I MOST CERTAINLY DO NOT HAVE A FONDNESS FOR ANY TEAM THAT WINS STATE 27 TIMES BEATING OVER HALF OF THE WRESTLERS IN THE FIELD AT STATE. ITS JUST NOT THE SAME TO MANY EASY MATCHES TO WIN AND RACK UP POINTS.

1 NO ITS NOT AT ALL!
2 WHAT? TWICE AS MANY WRESTLERS IN 4A
3AND 4 IM PRETTY SURE IT WOULD BE MORE EXCITING IF THE TRULY BEST WRESTLERS IN 5A WERE IN A 8 MAN BRACKET. TAKING 20% OF THE FIELD IE TWO REGIONALS.
5-TAKING AWAY OPPORTUNITY? YOU MEAN LIKE THE 379 WRESTLERS IN 4A THAT DO NOT GET TO COMPETE?

THANK YOU SCOTT IT HAPPENED 13 TIMES THIS YEAR AND EVEN MORE LAST YEAR. THE BEST WAY TO FIX IT WOULD BE TO HAVE TWO 16 TEAM REGIONALS AND AN 8 MAN STATE BRACKET. SINCE THEY GET ALL PISSY ABOUT COMBINING 5A AND 6A SO THEY WOULD HAVE 60+ SCHOOLS LIKE 3 AND 4 A

Seriously? Get over it. Records do NOT matter? Maybe we/YOU should focus on things that really matter? This topic is so stupid.

Forgive me, this is funny though, very similar to a PM i sent you two years ago. Those PMs where you spent half your post cursing....... you certainly aren't trying to do anything positive in this rant, so the few things you actually claim to do....... don't add up. better thoughts and ideas have been given about combining classes, but you can't admit it. your hatred runs too deep, you have seperation issues. you are blind with hate, admit it, and i will lay off.

finally some admittion, but still seperation issues, because you still display that 5a football championship patch. where you played less games, and teams with losing records to win.

if you combine it all you would see a decline in small school wrestling, it would just flip the argument, not solve anything

when schools can't compete, they stop trying. bockman, why is it we played in the same conference, but never lined up against each other in varsity football??? the system isn't perfect......but neither is this "throw them all together" idea.

I'm going to help poor Lucass out. It's not 27 times...Only 19. We did not win 13 or 14 in a row....Only 11.

Cant believe this thread is still going on.

My solution to the "class envy" and "under one roof" probelms. - I dont think anything big was going on at the Bi-Center last weekend. Good time to get the top 4, or even better 6 finishers from each class together for a little fun. Im fairly sure that would keep the "loser records" out of the tourney and we could all see how week 5A really is. =)


Like I said earlier, if its a money isue I will pay the rent on the building, as long as I get a cut of the gate. Im sure I could even find a few investors that would love to go in with me if need be. Cha..Ching Cha..Ching

separation issues? do tell?

have explained it before, you'll NEVER get it.

Ignore him!

I think you are completely out of touch if you think that in combining it all one would only see a decline in small school wrestling. A fairly arrogant comment. With this comment you are saying kids from small schools cannot compete and would drop out if there was no prize at the end. Yes, I understand the all class rankings are going to be top heavy with 5/6A kids. It is just a factor of money, population and opportunities. However, after you take out the elite, the small school kids would more than hold their own. Small schools already go to 2 day regionals where most will have to win 3 or more mathes to qualify. For many who compete, just being the best on their team or even placing in league is an accomplishment. They know they are probably not going to qualify for state. The 321A Council Grove regionals at 138 maybe didn't have any 'all class kids' but it was very deep. Many of those kids who did not qualify for state there, might in some of those other regionals where kids go to state without winning a match. In other words, many of the small school kids already compete knowing they will most likely never go to state. But, they keep coming out and competing - I guess for pride. Something I guess some do not understand.

Finally, Lucas you have some points, but remember Ark City normally goes to one of the best regionals in the state. You are aiming your comments at the wrong person.

Like I said, you have never met me before you have no idea who I am. You are the only one with issues thinking it is ok to let 13 kids into 5a with out winning a match at regionals. Something needs to be changed 250+ kids go home in 3a and 4a while we let kids in 5a make it with out winning a match.

Richard tell him to ignore me, thats fine it wont change the fact that 5a regionals are in need of reshaping. I dont see how any of you can think it is ok to let 13 kids into state with out having to win a match to be there.