Jr. High and High School Prisoners

I just made a reply post on the Kids page that I wanted to make mention of here. It was in regards to High School and Jr. High Kids not being able to attend the clinic for Tyler Graebner. At some point, something has to be done to ease and change some of the crazy rules in this state.

I love Kansas so don't want to hear any of the things I used to hear about how if I don't like it I can move back to Oklahoma. I just have issues with some of the rules that prohibit our kids from participating in a clinic even from a spectator perspective. There are other things as well but our wrestlers are treated, I believe unfairly.

Here is my response to the post on the other thread.

Just a note, that new photo's of the event are up at the http://www.tylergraebner.com web site. Please make sure to visit them and leave a comment in the guestbook for Tyler.

Ms. Jenni, it would have been nice to hear more from Danny Hodge. It was something to see the kids flocking to him, knowing of what he has done in the sport. For those not there you missed an incredible evening.

I want to also comment on the comment regarding our High School and Jr. High wrestlers. Something has to be done to allow them to participate in events like this, even if it means they can only go and watch. It is a shame that this many legends and great wrestlers can be in a room and our Jr. High and High School Wrestlers can't even be in the room to meet the very people they have had posters of on their walls for years.

I love Kansas, I hope people here know that by now. I love it enough to see that certain things change that hinder our wrestlers and participants in other sports like Track, Swimming and others. Rules that prohibit a athlete from going and watching legends of the sport are crazy. Imagine if Dr. J., Michael Jordon, Shaq, LeBron James and others came to town to do a $10 basketball clinic to help a kid with cancer and our high school and Jr. High athletes couldn't go. We have had the equivalent of that twice now for wrestling and our kids couldn't go and just watch, we are not talking about “participating” we are talking about “watching”. I hate to say it, and don't want this to be a soap box at this point, but I truly have to wonder if the KSHAA in the implementation of some of these rules really have the best interest of our kids at heart. Enough for now on that subject which will get me going about as strongly as I have with issues regarding Tyler.

Welcome to the dark side Furches....

KHSAA in it's infinite wisdom has decided that mediocrity for all instead of excelling for some or an attempt to help someone in need is its top priority.

It would be a nice gesture to see KHSAA step up to the plate and suspend the rule in an effort to show our kids that there are always exceptions to the rule. Don't look for it to happen.

Don't we do this every day? You know, bend the rules? How many times have you done something that isn't "by the book" to help someone out? I've done it plenty. What a great life lesson KHSAA is giving our kids.

I've got two examples. One is in regards to Tulsa Nationals. Many junior high kids would like to compete in it, but can't because they are "out" for junior high. My advice is generally to not go out for junior high wrestling because the level of competition/mat time you'll get in USA Wrestling is much higher. Some junior highs have late seasons, which conflict with state. The same advice applies.

The second example is with the NBA. In my first year of teaching, we had an athlete that as a junior, was looking to jump right into the NBA. The NBA sponsors a camp for kids, free of charge, that among other things, lays out a road map for those they select to get to the NBA. This kid would not, and didn't, make it in college. KHSAA says no, he can't go because he didn't pay for it. Kid finished high school, flunked out of college, and is now running the streets.

KHSAA cost that kid a possibility of a huge payday if he could have got his cards in order, so to speak. How much are they going to cost Tyler?

This organization, designed to protect our athletes, does more hinderance than good. Why there hasn't been a ardent contengency to disban KHSAA is beyond me.

HS kids from many other states wrestled in the Cotton Bowl this past week as well as they were out from HS season.

SlamBam

I totally agree with Mr. Furches. Here in Lawrence we have 7-8-9 grade junior highs. So kids can't wrestle for the high school until after their junior high season is over, which is Christmas time. No exceptions. Which means that they miss all of the pre-season high school coaching and about half of the season. It takes the high school coach about half of that to learn the kids name and correct some of the bad habits he picked up in junior high do to lack of competiion. We have had some pretty good wrestlers here in Lawrence basicly waste a year of their high school careers.

AS a parent that home schooled three sons, I can give you another KSHAA story -- in Ks. students that are not enrolled in public, or "approved" private schools, may not compete at any level of KSHAA events. that means that if you choose to educate your child at home, he will not be able to compete with any of his peers at any school event. we did compete in kids wrestling, and I took my oldest to 5k and 10k running events in Wichita, he was running about 50 miles a week at 17 and finished tenth out of 1500+ runners including several former olympians and some college runners at the 10K River run event at the Wichita River festival, which ultimately got him a scholarship at a juco, and he now runs at Emporia. All this was possible because I took him to non-school sponsored events at my expense and because he was not willing to accept the KSHAA's edict that he would not be able to compete. Later I discovered that I could have taken him to public school events as an unnattached athlete in lowly backwoods Oklahoma, but he certainly was not allowed to compete in cutting edge Kansas!! The really bad part of the whole deal, is that KSHAA as I understand it, is a semi-private organization that controls events pertaining to school age kids on a kind of a contract basis, and could be eliminated. That is only my understanding from communicating with KSHAA and some school officials, perhaps someone
non-KSHAA connected that is more informed concerning that relationship could enlighten me more about that. Son no. 3 is in public school due to the fact that I could not find a way to allow him a chance to compete in wrestling and Football outside of the KSHAA's control. KSHAA cites insurance reasons for this, but they are no more exposed to legal action from incidents involving Public school educated children than to home-educated ones, and they certainly don't mind accepting my tax money each year!

Mr. Fairleigh

I don’t agree with every mandate that KSHAA sends down the pipe, but I have to agree with them on this one. My stance on the issue really isn’t on the same page as the KSHAA mandate, but instead the fairness or equity of public school student athlete vs. the home-schooled student. Put yourself in the position of the public school athlete. Athletes in the public school must maintain their grades according to their school’s eligibility requirements. The rigors of the classroom are usually more demanding than that of the home-schooled student. Remember I did say usually. They must also be in good standing with their teachers in the areas of behavior, showing up to class on time, and turning work in on time. In other words the public school athlete has to jump through many more hoops than the home-schooled student.

You state “if you choose to educate your child at home, he will not be able to compete with any of his peers at any school event.” A home-schooled student does not have any public school peers. (Peer: one of equal standing with another). As I stated before there is an equity issue between the two students. It is impossible to compare the equity of the two when there is no common requirements between the two. This is not something that can be based on grades alone. I’m sure that your requirements for your children are vastly different from my requirement for my students.
There are many reasons that parents choose to educate their kids at home and some of them I agree with, and others I don’t. From a position of a public school educator and as a coach if I’m ever required to coach home-schooled children I will resign. I’m not saying my position on the issue is the right one, but it is the one I believe in based on fairness and equity between students. Again, we both have our opinions on the issue, whose to say who is right and who is wrong.

Scott Neil
Social Studies Dept. Chair
Head Wrestling Coach
Basehor-Linwood High School

I am shocked at the vast animosity towards the KSHSAA (Kansas State High School Activities Association) in this post. While I too do not agree with every rule the KSHSAA has in place, the rules are there for a reason, and that reason is THE PROTECTION OF THE STUDENT ATHLETES. The KSHSAA is not necessarily concerned with developing the best wrestlers, football players, basketball players, or debaters. They are concerned with assuring "that the state's middle level and high school students gain a balanced preparation for life, work, and post-secondary education." (taken from the KSHSAA home page). Their job is bigger than making students better wrestlers, they are concerned with making them better people, and protecting them from individuals/organizations that may not share the same goal.

While it is a shame that sometimes opportunities are lost due to rules that are in place, the rules serve to protect our children. In regards to the issue that started this topic, I very seriously doubt that the KSHSAA would have suspended any athlete for watching a clinic. They are not concerned with attendance, they are concerned with participation. In the same way a wrestler can watch a tournament that they are not competeing in, they could watch the clinic and not participate.

In regards to the home school issue, the KSHSAA has rules regarding eligibility from "Accredited" institutions. In addition they have rules involving age, which must be documented. The KSHSAA's stance on this is to make sure their is a level playing field.

Also, since the member institutions pay for the KSHSAA services, why should people (home schools/nonaccredited private schools) that are not part of the instituions recieve its benefits?

Also, I don't want my students to get the idea that bending the rules is ok. If a rule needs to be changed, it should be done through the approriate channels, but while it is the rule it should be enforced, and anyone not doing that is teaching the person a bad lesson. Why should they learn to follow the rules if they aren't enforced. Pretty soon they will think that all rules are subject to change for them and they don't have to follow any of them.

In closing, I do think that sometimes opprotunities are lost due to the KSHSAA's rules, but their #1 priority is to protect our student athletes, and I feel they do a remarkable job with that!

Kale Mann
Biology/Chemistry Teacher
Assistant Wrestling Coach
Mill Valley High School

What are they trying to protect these student athletes from.

Just when I begin to feel nobody understands the reason for KSHSAA regulations we receive two well written posts defending the same. Isn't it odd that both come from educators and coaches? Props to both Mr. Neil and Mann for attempting to educate the users of this board to some of the many reasons why such regulations exist.
In answer to poster "number two", from over zealous parents and fans!

Very few additional points of substance can be added to Mr. Mann's and Mr. Niel's thoughtful and well reasoned posts. Thank you gentlemen for putting this squabble in perspective and yes Mr. Mann, you are right on point when you say that most of the KSHSAA rules are intended to protect student athletes. From who? From over zealous coaches and parents who all too often forget that there is more to life and growing up than gyms, weights, game balls, and wrestling mats. Our society has become way too focused on sports/winning. The kind of singleminded, year round determination that is now being expected of our high school athletes is what was expected of professionals a generation ago. Sadly, I see it creeping into middle school and even elementary schools (can you say May-Ball?).

A parent chooses to home school his children and then complains that his choice limits their options. How ironic.

welll so were allowing the institution to tell us whats best for our kids and taking it away from what mom and dad thinks best for there son or daughter. i was always under the thought that as long as the GPA. good standing in school,and showing up for class. if these are met then tell me in what way can they say i cnat take my kid to a tourny in oklahoma or any were else.

#2--you can take your child anywhere you want to and have them compete in any evert of your (and his/her?) choice. Have at it as there are NO rules stopping you as an individual and parent from doing this.

However, if you want them to be a member of a SCHOOL TEAM then you and he/her are accepting the fact that there are rules to be followed in regards to participation.

Just remember that the choices you make enhance opportunities in some areas restrict/diminish them in others.

And yes, more othen than not schools because of institutional objectivity have a much better idea of what is best for children than do overzealous on one hand, and uninterested on the other, parents.

I understand the protect our children as there are a number of Whacko parents out there that are trying to live vicariously through their children. However, we state that KSHSAA is trying to protect our students by instead of settling for the "middle balance" aim higher. But if we were to raise eligibilty grade standards then people would cry foul too saying we are being unfair by making trying to eliminate "certain athletes"

I've been at tournaments and duals, and it amazes me that some of our "student" athletes can't even do simple math or communication skills without having a calculator or mumbling. Lets not only change the standards of where and when you can compete somewhere, but also how important your school work and success in the classroom has to be in order to get you there!

In the district I teach in a student may not compete the following week if he or she has one "F" in any class. This continues until the student regains eligibility with no grades lower than a "D". There was grumbling amongst the parents at first, but since our district met the "Standard of Excellence" the grumblings have ceased. In aiming higher you must not only push sports but academics.

Someone help me out here, is it true, that the same types of rules pertaining to swimming in Missouri were challenged legally and the state lost that case? I am sorry to disagree with some on this point, well actually I’m not sorry, the thought that one could not speak their mind is in some ways more dangerous than the fact that there are those that both support and disagree with “some” of these rules on this post, but the truth is that KSHAA has rules in place that prohibited even watching a clinic, exactly as stated in my initial post. For those that disagree with that I challenge you to send your high school students to the next planned clinic and see what happens. I agree with Mr. Sayler in a previous post on another thread. My interpretation of the rule was clear, I would not encourage any Jr. High or High School athlete to attend any of the clinics.

No one here, especially me, is saying that kids shouldn't maintain their grades, I have no issue with that requirement and believe it should be in place. Neither have I heard anyone say that a public school coach should have to coach a home schooled athlete. Just that they should have the same rights they have in other states to compete against a public school athlete. Truth is that national studies show that home schooled students score better and do better in some ways academically than do public school students. I hate to say this because my wife is a public school educator but you can’t hardly argue with the facts on these types of things.

The legal issue of what is fair for a student in Missouri, Oklahoma, Florida, Texas or Kansas comes into play in my opinion. I am not a lawyer, don't pretend to be, but when these types of rules have been challenged in other states, and those states have lost. Please someone explain to me why Kansas athletes should not have those same legal rights? Eventually, I believe that is what it will come down to, is a legal challenge. I certainly am not talking about the organization of KSHAA, but my experience, even with the clinic that brought this to question for me again, is that I have been told to expect nothing in regards to getting anything done. I have found that to be true, in that three weeks ago I requested clarification of the rule and never received a response to the question. The closest thing I received to clarification was an interpretation from Mr. Salyer, I don’t think he is a governing member of the KSHAA. While Richard and I disagree on this point, in part, I consider him a friend and appreciate his willingness to at least debate the issue. Another point here, is that while some coaches have responded here, I know they don’t speak for all coaches. I know of coaches behind the scenes who are telling me to fight on this fight. I have also spoken with educators and coaches from major universities who are opposed to these rules, one of them even telling me recently in a e-mail, “Mr. Furches we have tried to get some of the rules changed but Kansas seems to be in the Dark Ages. I don’t really know if they know how much harm they are doing to their student-athletes.” This is a quote from an email correspondence in part from a major university near here who has one of our nations leading wrestling programs. I’ll leave it at that but some of you can figure out which school has petitioned the KSHAA to reconsider changing some of our rules in the recent past.

Ultimately, the call should be up to the coach and school that the student-athlete participates for. Involved in that decision I believe in part should also be the parents and to some extent the athlete themselves. I would like to see some facts as to how the students in other states where these types of rules don't apply, are hindered, and hurt by the lack of said rules. I don't believe that can be done. There is also the assumption that nothing is learned from athletics and that school is only about academics. As a college graduate with graduate level studies, I find this opinion dangerous. It is the same type of thinking that potentially leads to the absolution of the arts, physical education and the whole bit. I personally grew up in an America which believed in many of the values learned in sports. In some ways, those values of hard work, learning to persevere, stick it out, doing what is good for your fellow man, were learned more in athletics than in mathematics. I am not knocking the academics but neither am I demeaning the value of hard work and dedication to excellence in the athletic field. For those to say, “here are the rules and if you don’t like them don’t go to public school,” it is equivalent to the kid on the playground who says, “It’s my ball and if you don’t like it you can go home.”

In closing, I guess the response given by sports fan and others is the primary reason of debate here. I personally don’t believe it is the responsibility of educators to protect my children, nor the children of any other parent with what they perceive as being “right” or “wrong”. That, I and I believe many others believe, is the parents’ responsibility. It is the educators responsibility to educate. As a former high school coach and educator myself, I speak on behalf of those who would disagree with this perspective. I know from personal experience of coaching high school in another state that did not have these types of rules that you can maintain a high level of academic excellence while at the same time allowing outside opportunities. The team I coached was allowed to participate in these types of events, even participate on other teams during the season and maintained a 3.7 GPA to obtain Pepsi Team Scholar status. Did I as a coach have to encourage strong study habits, yes, but I believe that should be a part of a coaches expectations as an educator anyway.

In closing, on many of these rules I think we would agree on, myself, sportsfan, Richard, even the two coaches, Coach Neil and Coach Mann, I just don’t agree with all of the rules. I do believe a specific question is appropriate to those coaches and those that disagree with my original post. What would be wrong or what harm would come about from a student attending and watching a clinic like described above. In any sport for that matter, again, not talking about participating or lacing up the shoes getting on the mat, on the basketball court or whatever sport you want to apply here. I am talking about watching. I personally hold it equivalent to a FFA student who attends a local judging contest to watch others judge cattle, sheep or whatever and then explain the judging process. Why one standard is appropriate and another not, is still beyond me.

I feel that My statements were beaten around somewhat. I did not attack anyone who chooses to participate in the public system. I feel that by referring to "whackos" and bringing up discipline as a qualification for participation, that some are missing the point that I was attempting to make. as for not sharing in the cost of membership, you forget that the schools are spending tax money, not private enterprise money, on their decision to enroll as members, and that means that I did pay into the membership of the school in my district. as far as discipline, my oldest son ran a tougher track schedule by far than any my youngest son ran when he was in his high school's track program, and my youngest son was quite equal to most wrestlers when participating in the kid's program. When I mentioned the term "peers" I didn''t say anything about public school peers, I specifically referenced the term to include all children in his age group. My two home schooled children have both earned ACT scores above the average level for acceptance into college, which many public school products achieve after several attempts and many clinics that help them utilize the system to raise their scores. That is not a complaint or whining, it is a fact. As for my choice to home school and my complaint that I can't selectively participate in some school programs, it is a point well taken. My third son is in the public system because I was willing to put him into public schools so that he could participate in sports. He has done relatively well in the sports, has had some trouble in the academics. That may be proof that his home school background did not prepare him for high school, or it may be a reflection on his priorities. at any rate, I meant no hostility to the purveyors of public education, and was somewhat surprised at the hostility that resulted from my post. My decision to home school my children, while in the view of some would make me a "whacko", has not affected my basic desire to be civil to others.

Mr. Salyer,

Let me first give a brief background of myself. I have been in the educational/coaching setting for the past seven years and have been an interested observer of how KHSAA handles it's business.

As you stated, and correctly so "Membership in KSHSAA is strictly voluntary, and the members of KSHSAA, through their elected board of directors and executive board, determine the rules for their organization, and KSHSAA's only function is to enforce the rules and regulations to properly implement the activities agreed upon by the organization."

The problem that those that wish to not participate can do so, but will get black balled and any event will not be sanctioned. So if Abilene says to heck with KHSAA, it has every right to do so. But by doing so, they wouldn't be able to compete with any other KHSAA school in a regular season format. It is understood that they wouldn't have any post season honors.

But back to it's mission statement....

"The Kansas State High School Activities Association advocates principles and sponsors services which assure that the state's middle level and high school students gain a balanced preparation for life, work, and post-secondary education."

Aside from sports, what is the one thing that KHSAA does that advocates, "life, work, and post-secondary education?" I mean this in all sincerity. What life skill initiative have they proposed? Does this orgainization promote some sort of vocational training skill that I'm not aware of? And post secondary? Please inform me how they prepare students for an education beyond high school.

I will give you credit however. You are absolutely right that legal action should be taken if we aren't happy with their policy. Only one problem - the organization has a history of being able to crush any malcontents in court - for various reasons. One is obviously a poorly organized case. The second is the fact that they have lots of legal help, whereas, for the most part, we do not. Every once in a while a group is able to persuade someone to do a case pro bono, and KHSAA makes it clear through long drawn out cases, that this is not in the best interest of the lawyer/s involved.

And of course, doesn't it just drive you nuts that they are beating us with our money?

As for Mr. Mann, you state:

"Also, I don't want my students to get the idea that bending the rules is ok. If a rule needs to be changed, it should be done through the approriate channels, but while it is the rule it should be enforced, and anyone not doing that is teaching the person a bad lesson. Why should they learn to follow the rules if they aren't enforced. Pretty soon they will think that all rules are subject to change for them and they don't have to follow any of them."

Quick scenario for you. Lets say the school strongly discourages and will reprimand any coach to be found giving rides to athletes after practice. The legal issues are just to great.

Lets say you have a kid that is an average wrestler, but you know his family history and the best thing for him is to be involved in something other than homelife. But he has no transportation. Do you give him a ride anyway?

I've done it plenty. Does this make me a bad person? Am I showing the kids that rules are only applicable to those that chose to follow them, or am I showing compassion.

What about deadlines? Have you ever secretly extended a deadline in your class for someone because of a legitimate excuse or just to get them over the grade hump from one grade to the next?

I have. Was I wrong for doing so or was I just being a teacher that realized that the end of the world will not come by giving a kid a ride or extending a deadline on a rare occasion. Then again, you and I may very well be teaching two very different types of students.

The problem with KHSAA, as I see it, is that they are reluctant to any sort of change and if that change does come, it's at the expense of various groups challenging them in court, an expensive process.

Elected officials through an "at large" election are effective (to some degree, depending on your city/town) because they are capable of understanding that a change needs to take place. I'll use Topeka as an example. We just changed our form of government from strong mayor to city manager. Topekans realized that something needed to be done and voted to do something about it.

This liberty is not afforded to those KHSAA directly affects. Instead, the Executive Board is voted in through representation of the school boards (usually the AD), who is not voted on by the citizens he or she oversees in the district.

Ask me how many times an AD I've worked for has come to me about any issues I think would make this organization better. Zero.

In the symposiums KHSAA sponsors in August, look to see how many sessions involve making KHSAA bettter.

I think it is interesting how clearly there is a problem with many of KHSAA's policies. Let me share this story with you:

My family is moving to KC because of a job situation. My kid brother is still in wrestling up here in WI. On several occasions my dad has talked to those involved with various programs in the KC area and was actually told that Kansas does not have a midschool program. It seems pretty clear that the reason that he was told that was because Kansas might as well not have one the way the rules appear to be applied, at least a first glance.

Also having been told that there was not even a middle school program it is clearly evident that the KHSAA has in all likelihood failed in its task to promote HS and MS sports. In doing so it has failed every one in the state because (and corrects me if Im wrong) it was created by legislative mandate and as a result ought to be answerable to the public. It seems interesting that a state values personal freedom would create a governing body for HS sports...that compared to the states around and in the NFHSS it fails to live up to its mandate, has no direct accountability, and instead uses its governmental status to make it a 500 pound legal gorilla.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not ripping on KA, but instead very frankly dumb founded as to the KHSAA is tolerated. I also think it ironic that two of the people who so adamantly defended the KHSAA are teachers. In everywhere I have lived or traveled to, teachers (or professors), for the most part will never attack an organization that is big, authoritarian, and most importantly government backed. Also Mr. Mann’s and Neil’s posts, while thought out don’t address the rules themselves. Based on previous posts it seems clear the KHSAA would be fine if some kid had to walk home everyday from practice, even if it’s a thunderstorm and a 5 mile walk, kids problem not there’s. Or better yet, student athletes shouldn’t be able to pay a former college wrestling coach to provide extra training in the the form of structured practice with other paying wrestlers on a Sunday durning the season, even though that extra training will enable him to get a full ride to Cornell, Missouri, UW-Madison, or a host of other schools that I can list that not everyone can afford. The point of HS sports should be to enhance opportunities, not stunt them. As far as kids being pushed to hard I can list several kids who quit even though there parents were the kind that drove from across the country to wrestle in the cotton bowl this weekend…and none of these kids got taken out back to the wood shed either.

Hey Kale,
Glad to hear that you will be bringing your team out west. From what I hear it has been your dream to bring them here.
I assure you the community of Norton will be tickled pink to see you and also to see if you have shared some of your hard nose work ethic with your wrestlers.
I sure would be interested in how your program has developed and would like to know more about your league and some of the teams that you meet thru out the year. This can be handy for me to give you credit when I speak of you on the radio,I know that the listerners will enjoy hearing about your accomplishments and your future goals for your team.
Stop by the radio stand and we will chat,who knows maybe I can get you to do play by play with me....
Good Luck
fig

Mr. Slayer,
very nicely said, I just have to add a few things.

1: Mr. Farleigh, the funding issue is complex, but basically the schools recieve their money from the state based on enrollment. If your children are not enrolled in the school, then technically, you have not paid any tax dollars to the school, the state divies them up and sends them out.

2: Gibby, I have never "secretly" extended a due date for a student, however I have extended due dates due to outside circumstances. I would be completely forthright with my administration as to what I have done and the reasons for that. As for the ride issue, I too have given athletes rides to and from practice, I simply had their parent/gaurdians sign a release, the same as if they were going on a field trip, which satisfied my administrators concerns. If that had not worked, I would have worked for another solution.

3: Gibby (again), in regards to your earlier post, encouraging kids to not wrestle in the Junior High Program, I am shocked that a coach and teacher would encourage that. While the competition may not be as good, this is usually the first time the young wrestlers are able to be part of a wrestling team, which is an important part of our sport. It is also a chance for them to be introduced to the system of wrestling that is taught at their High School. I for one wish that my district had a Junior High wrestling program, even though we have a very active kids program. I think they can compliment eachother in developing wrestlers for High School and beyond.

4: Vidar, I have no idea what you have been told regarding Middle School Wrestling, many districts have programs and many do not, but that is a district by district decision. There is not state sanctioned championship for Middle Schools, that may be what you are referring to, but he can always compete in the Kids Wrestling system after his season is finished.


Fig: I am extremly excited to bring our kids on out west. I think we will compete well. Shoot me an e-mail with any questions you have and I would be happy to answer them for you. As far as the play-by-play is concerned, I would hate to bring the level of your broadcast down , besides I hope to be real busy coaching all day !

Take care and see you Saturday.

Kale Mann

In Iowa, everyone who lives in the bounderies of a given school district pays the same rate of property taxes. Therefore, by state law, ALL children who live within those bounderies are eligible to participate in school activities in that district. We have two girls' basketball players, one boys' basketball player and a couple of track kids doing that right now (no wrestlers so far).

Now, I will say that this is not a popular rule among educators and coaches. The issue of grades is always coming up as well as the idea of "Well, if our classrooms aren't good enough for those kids, then why are our gyms/fields/wrestling rooms?"

It is a tough question though, and Mike, I wish you luck with it. Hey, you can always move to Iowa! When I was in Kansas, I always had people telling me if Iowa was so great, why don't I move back.

I did.

VS Vike Coach, thanks for the offer but I love Kansas and am committed to staying here, although we do like Iowa as well.

Richard, you have totally missed my point, and it is interesting that none of the high school wrestlers are responding. My point was as stated, a kid could not even attend to meet one of the legends of the sport. In addition, if they are sitting in the stands learning, I still fail to see the problem with that. I understand it is the rule, but to say we have to like it is absurd. I just think the process of changing rules is out of the hands of those in the athletic community.

Let me ask this question, if the majority of people want a rule changed, should the rule then be changed? Remember, we are not talking about doing something out of the ordinary, we are talking about doing something that many other states do for their students. That is a simple question that I believe is a fair question. I believe the majority of people, would like to see "SOME" of our rules changed but it is as if they have no voice.

I must also say this, I believe it an unfair statement to say that a coach from OU, your designation not mine, was only serving a self serving purpose. That is to imply that you know all of his intent and heart. My faith tells me that only one knows the heart of man and it is not you or I. I have spoken to numerous college coaches; none of them like the rules as designated in Kansas for our athletes, is that to say that all of them are also self-serving? I could also imply that any organization that takes rights away from students and parents is self-serving; I however refuse to do that because I believe the problem is bigger than that and that to make those types of references will not solve any disagreement.

Simple question, should not parents, coaches, and athletes have a say in adopting rules such as those adopted by other surrounding states? If the answer is no please give legitimate reason as to why not. I would also challenge someone to state the question in a fair way, then lets do a poll and see what the majority of those involved in this forum think. I would even support a supporter of the current rule on this issue phrase the question as long as you give a fair response option for both sides. While I may not like the overall conclusion supported by the poll, I would still find it interesting. I would find it interesting because if it really is about the kids, then to allow those kids a say and see how they feel should be a process we all support. If we can’t support them or their parents in expressing even their voice, then I have to wonder about the legitimate reason for refusal to consider any rule changes.

Last note, don’t get me wrong, I have to say that from what I have seen I support 96 or 97% of the rules of our governing organization. I just happen to believe that a small percentage of them do more harm than good. Last note is that Richard seems to indicate that the question shouldn’t even be brought up here. I don’t agree with that. If anything forums have shown me that they are a place to establish and start some levels of grass roots organization. I believe that discussion of those issues and others as they have been addressed on these forums are more positive than negative. Then again, the silencing of the voice of our athletes is a process that some may support. I just happen to believe in the maturity of many of them, and the wisdom of their parents more than I do any organization. Enough so to give the ones paying the bills through their tax dollars more of a voice than they currently seem to have.

Sorry to change topics, but we (KWCA) have been trying to get a dual state approved by the KSHSAA executive board for several years that is backed by virtually the entire wrestling community and that is a slow process, but we are resolved to see it through, so it gets put on theiur agenda every year.

My advice to you, if you want it changed, start early, get as much support as possible and be prepared to address and defend your position each year.

The KSHSAA at least gives wrestling coaches far more freedom in coaching their athletes in the summer than they do for other sports. This is a fairly recent change that no doubt took some time to get changed. I beleve it took 8-9 years to finally get 6 medals at the state tounament in 1992, which worked great for me in 92 but bad for Kit Harris in 91 (sorry, Coach, yeah I know, you still have that common opponent over me.) Anyway, change is possible, just get the ball rolling soon!!

Good Luck!!

Kale-- I must agree w/ Fig that we are all very excited to see you and your team this weekend. It'll be a great weekend, filled w/ great wrestling and the whole family! I'll see ya friday night after my game!

Kale Mann: I DO have one child in the system, so I DO have the allotted 3800 dollars or so going into the schools decision to have membership in the KSHAA. If I were a school administrator I would elect to be a member-- to do anything else would be an incredible abandonment of my responsibilities to the students. I made my educational decisions based on the individual needs of my children, something a public school administrator does not have the luxury of doing, for the most part. What I am pointing out, is that the regulatory body in Kansas is much more restrictive, and I believe needlessly so , than several of our neighboring states, as we have seen. As for not having a financial share in the public system, that is not correct, as whether you have a child in the district or not, money is being deducted from every check you earn, and the state allocates more of it for schools than for any other interest, so everyone is paying, you just don't know where it is going unless you have a child in the district. In my communication with KSHAA officials, as in Mr. Furches' apparent case, it seems to be more about control than anything else, and that is good only insomuch as the control is for the sake of better adolescent development (for students, not parents). I, too, find it a bit interesting that so far most of the defenders of the status quo are coaches or teachers, or both. If Iowa, Missouri, and Oklahoma can offer participation to all who pay taxes, I can't see why KSHAA has a problem with that. Also I found the post that explained to me that my child has no peers in the public schools because he is not "equal" to them to be a bit unpalatable, as he is one year away from graduation from a Board of Regents school, likely one that has turned out many teachers in Kansas, and has had no problems out of the ordinary. Vike Coach: Thank you for the support, I appreciate it.

Lets be honest here, the rule that started this thread is, not allowing athletes to participate in non sanctioned events IN season. IMO there are two rules that if eliminated or changed much would gut the very intent of the KSHSAA. Those are the participation rule during season and the rules regarding transfer eligibility. Both if effected could put a high school coach in a very compromising position. As a fan, I don't want your wrestler risking injury in a non-sanctioned event and having an effect on my school's team.
As to the "everyone else is doing it" routine, that didn't work on me with my kids while growing up and will not work here. Just because another state does it differently doesn't mean they do it better or correctly. Besides, according to the majority of posters on this board Kansas wrestling has made great improvement on a national level in recent years. Apparently these rules have not had too much of a negative effect on the quality of wrestlers we produce.

By non-sanctioned, it sounds like you mean completely not sanctioned, where the reality is that most of these events our wrestlers must miss, such as the Tulsa Nationals, Cotton Bowl, etc. are sanctioned and insured, just not through and with the approval of the KSHSAA. An athlete would be just as likely or unlikely to sustain an injury in a KSHSAA sanctioned tournament.

These rules, while there is a purpose behind them, can absolutely affect an athlete's chance to be noticed by a school who may have some type of scholarship for them. I think athletes should be allowed to compete in outside competition with some type of "first priority" clause to the effect of you may not miss any team practice or competition to participate in an outside event.

Mr. Fairleigh

I apologize if my post seemed hostile. I was not trying to attack you or your opinion. I was simply just stating my opinion. Again, I don’t agree with all of the rules set by KSHAA, but there are rules and we have to compete by them. I think the same can be said about many state and federal laws, but we have to abide by them also.

(This is not directed to Mr. Fairleigh) As for the post that addresses my questioning of KSHAA rules earlier, I never did question any of the rules in my post. But if I did, so what! Just because I’m an educator and a coach why shouldn’t I question a rule that I think is unjust? Remember our country was formed by questioning the unjust laws that were placed on us by King George III and Parliament.

Since we are on the topic of rules I would like to throw this one out. This rule has bothered me for years and I would like to see how many other people view this rule as discriminatory. I don’t remember the exact year the weight classes were changed to include this rule, but never the less I think it was a horrible decision.

The 275 class use to be the HWT or the Unlimited class. Now, we have a weight class, 275, that discriminates against our kids. Many coaches have students/athletes walking the halls that top 300 pounds that cannot compete in wrestling because they can’t reach 275 pounds. Athletes today are bigger and stronger so shouldn’t we make allowances for that. I’m not saying that I want to add another weight class, but instead change 275 back to unlimited. When I wrestled we only had 12 weight classes, which I wish we could go back to, but the aim was to get more kids the opportunity to wrestle and stabilize weight loss. The rule itself was contradictory to it’s intention by limiting the highest weight class to 275 pounds. The rule not only limits who can compete, but it also suggests extreme weight loss for those really big kids. I’m sure that the safety issue will also get mentioned here so I will address it. In the 29 years I’ve been involved in wrestling I have seen many more kids in the lower weight classes get injured than in the heavier weight classes so you can throw the safety issue out. I know this is a federation rule, but it is a rule that KSHAA can choose not to follow as it does with the head-to-head weigh in rule.

I just want see what some thoughts on this rule are. Thanks.

Coach Neil, your last posts indicates to me that you are a man of integrity and wanted to tell you that. Your question brings to light my very concern, Let me make clear, I believe we should support and follow the rules, although there is a historical precedence and need at times for revolt, our history from the very beginning tells us that to the times of Civil rights certainly including race and suffrage.

Now to your question. I agree that rules of this nature are discriminating. At the present time, my son is light, and I believe will be okay in high school in that he is gaining weight appropriately. I have noticed though that the heavy kids and light kids suffer from the same issues in some ways. I would hope that we could encourage and support changes that make participation possible for all kids. I didn’t like the 275 pound class nor did I like doing away with the 98 pound class. The issue you bring up is a very valid issue, especially when considering the athleticism today of the heavier athlete. I believe it to be true that our athletes are getting better, more mobile and stronger. There are many in shape 300-pound athletes today that could wrestle.

Last note to sportsfan02. Please do not misinterpret what I have said. I personally believe that observing and participating are two different things. The question is that they could not even attend and watch. I have also stated and I believe this; these types of decisions should include all of those involved, especially, and most importantly the head coach of the team the athlete is a part of. It should be their bottom line decision due to the needs of the team and the fact that they have the best understanding of the needs of the team and in some ways the needs of the athlete themselves.

By the way, there does appear to be a loophole in the rule. Say the history club decides to go to a clinic and see and hear about the history of wrestling, say for example from an all-American or even someone like Danny Hodge, who is certainly a historical figure. The way I read the rules is that if going with the history club then the wrestler could go to said event. Is this a misunderstanding of the rule, just asking because it does look like an out for something like this.

I am trying to understand this topic - I know that athletes cannot participate in outside contests during season, but where I'm at a loss is why they can't watch. I asked all of our coaches and our AD and nobody at my school knew anything about the athletes not being able to attend as a spectator. Does this mean that a basketball player cannot go to a professional basketball game, OR watch his/her younger sibling play biddy basketball? Many of our high school basketball players in the past were hired to referee Saturday morning biddyball games. Have the rules changed? I guess I'm just abit dense on this issue.

Kyle,

I should have prefaced the issue with Junior High wrestling by stating these wrestlers are kids that have been involved with wrestling for quite some time.

I don't think anyone will dispute the facts that for the most part, junior high wrestling is a hinderance to those that have been involved with wrestling for quite some time. I too was introduced to wrestling in junior high, which spurred me into kids. At the time however, I wasn't that good and doing the "federation" route wouldn't have been the best for me. For those that have asked, I don't blatantly call out federation over kids, but sit with the parents and discuss it.

On towards the issue of giving rides. You do give a sound resolution - at the same time, that resolution holds little water in court. Check the court case involving the death of two girls and severe injury to another that had permission slips for the girls to ride with someone on the team to softball practice, held at another facility. The case is a little fuzzy, it's been a while, but I believe the premise was that if the students were traveling to a school sponsored activity (practice), it was the responsibility of the school to provide transportation. I believe it was settled out of court. The case was with a KC school district.

This case was a major concern with me while teaching in the Wichita school district. The wrestling team was not given a school bus for competition. For close competition, the students were to either drive themselves or with their parents. This drove me nuts, and was one of the reasons I left. Kids "carpool" to the events and that in itself was a no-no. Seeing the huge liability placed upon my shoulders concerning actions I had limited control over, I left.

A piece of paper, though signed, is really nothing more than a piece of paper. It may excuse you from liability, but rest assured, a crafty lawyer can work around it.

Richard:

I find it intriguing that you bring up STUCO and Kay as life skill answers - two organizations that traditionally take the cream of the crop and make them better.

I should have prefaced my post by stating something along the lines of taking the average/below average kid and making them better. Many of the sports do not have "cuts." Wrestling and football are examples. I understand the needs for cuts, not enough gym space or spots. Which furthers my point.

I also wouldn't be inclined to use Music as an example of something that affords kids the opportunity to gain a scholarship - at least not in what is deemed the traditional model of athletics. I would be completely happy if athletics were held to their standards. If they were, the following changes would occur.

1. A class on thier sport. We would be just like Oklahoma and Texas in that regard.

2. No distance restrictions for tourney travel. When I was in high school, the music department went to the Orange Bowl to play. How great would a wrestling trip to Florida be?!

3. (From an athlete perspective), missed class time to help raise money for the wrestling team. Several high schools do "singing telegrams" on Valentine's Day as a fundraiser.

4. More time with my family. Then again, my wife may feel differently. But if I were able to hold practice during "class", I'd get to see my wife and baby more. Let's be honest, I'd probably stay at school drawing up defensive schemes instead of going home.

But back to the initial post, which was frustration over the inability to support Tyler by the wrestling family. For the most part, I understand the intent of the rules, I just don't agree with the rigidness of the application.

To Mom160, I believe the problem was not so much being a spectator, it was that spectators would be watching instruction being given, the same as the participants, only maybe not participating in the actual drills. I may be all wrong, but that was my understanding of the problem. It was okay for the high schoolers to be in the hall socializing or bidding on the auction items, but not to receive "instruction".