classifications

Effective immediately - Emporia and St Thomas Aquinas are 5A. Any thoughts on how tough 5A is?

I think it will definately be tougher. The returning 6A champs dropping down, and Emporia is usually a top 10 team. Throw in Lansing (a 4A school that bumped up last year and did really well without losing any qualifiers to graduation), KC-Turner, Ark City, and Bishop Carroll. I think the 5A title is up for grabs. I also think it will creat 2 very tough regional tournaments in 5A (1 in Wichita area and one in KC area). 6A, on the other hand, seems like Manhattan just lost 2 serious threats to a run at this year's title.

5A has been very tough for the last ten years and in my opinion will be the toughest class now.

No one is mentioning Paola's drop into the 4A ranks!

Paola is 5A for Sports this year, it is next year for Football were Paola and Pittsburg will be 4A and as of right now that is just for football. You can be 4A in football but yet compete in 5A for the other sports, I know in 96 and 97 Fort Scott was 4A in Football but 5A in all the other sports

Umm... no.

Umm....how do you figure?

Toughest Class In Kansas Topic!

In all honesty, I think that topic does show the overall depth of talent in the State tournament all levels. Agreed the champions of each class are equal basically, as you begin to look more at the placer in quality the depth drops off after 4A, and the qualifiers depth drops off even more, 15 combined for 123&4A as compared to 72 for 5&6A combined. That in itself says A LOT. There's some facts to back my statement, so disprove the facts and I'll agree 100%.

Alex

Alex

I see you had a pretty good record in 4A last year. So, where would you have placed in 5A state last year at 130. Since you had such a good record, and you wrestle 4A.

To be honest I don't think I would have placed, It might have been close for either 5 or 6. I will admit that 5A 130 was tough, but that doesn't mean that every eight class their above or below is equally as tough. I am not afraid to admit I didn't place in either of my 2 trips to the State Championships. I doubt I would have placed in 5A. Do you have a point? I was talking the overall depth of talent not just the 130 bracket.

Alex

ps. If you really want to be taken seriously sign your name, at least show your a man if you call someone out.

That's funny Alex. I'm really not trying to call you out. I just want you to take a look at your own wieght class. My point is that records and numbers don't mean much when it concerns wrestling. To get a true measure of talent in each class look at how well they've done in tournements against each other. Wrestling is still a 1 on 1 sport regardless of what class your in.

Bronco: Have you taken Lampe down yet?? If so, tell him he must be getting old and slow.

Nope not yet, but he did give me 2 shirts, a pair of shorts, and headgear with kneepads today though! Today was the first practice so I haven't gotten my shot yet... I hope I don't either because I don't think I could take him down. Did you teach my secret move to one who I demonstrated on? Take Care and Good Luck this year.

Alex

You did call me out, when you say Alex in the first line of the post it's directed at me and calling me out. I don't mind it honestly and I'll admit again I probably wouldn't have placed in 5A.

Alex

I think 5A 125 and 135 were even tougher than 130 in 05.

This is not meant to take anything away from the goal and value of working hard this season to place and win state. But, remember to be thankful that you live in Kansas where achieving that goal is a real possibility for just about anyone.
I think KSHAA rewards mediocrity for all Kansas sports by giving it 4 classifications. In wrestling, 4 state champs in every weight class is a joke. KS ranks 32nd in population. California has 34 million people and one state champ per weight class. New York, 19 million and one state champ per weight class. KS has about 2.7 million people. KS gives a state champ to every 675,000 residents. If California did that they would have 50 states champs per weight class. So those of you who are worrying about a tough team moving into your classification need to keep it all in perspective. If I were in charge there would be one state champ per weight class and one team champ in KS.

Nice to see your return to idiocracy. If I am not mistaken, there were a few kansas kids that beat california state champions? not bad for a state that has 4 classifications. Not only did they beat them but I believe Curtis Chenoweth a State Runner-up even majored one of them. Perhaps he can elaborate on this some more. A state that lives in mediocracy sure did place VERY well in Senior Nationals, seventh I believe? Some things never change, such as your IQ for starters.

Alex

Once again, Kansas does fairly well on a national level. I have to admit that it is pretty cool to watch one of our small school kids that has never left NW Kansas take a kid from a more well known state to school on the mat. Take a look at a few of the links on this site. Look at the state records link.....a lot of these kids have GRAND DADS that were kicking butt back in the day. The big schools did not win many state championships until the classes finally split. If you don't believe me, take a look. Do some of those names mean anything to some of you younger guys that think tradition goes back 10 years?

Dear Mr. Sensitive,

CA and NY have 15 state champs per year. KS has 60.

Nobody is bashing the hs elite KS wrestlers who compete on a national level and exceed their state's population rankings. This thread was about KSHAA classification changes and how "tough" 5A has become. If all you have to do to get to state is go through one regional and finish in the top 4 out of 8 in 5A and 6A, that's not very tough by comparison.
To equate the KS high school wrestling state tournament with CA or NY is outrageously naive. Do you know how many districts and sectionals and regionals you have to go through to qualify in NY or CA? (BTW, what CA state champ did Chenowith major? Please point me to those results.) Here are some of the 2004 CA state champs and where they are now in wrestling.

Michah Ferguson Cal Poly
Steven Juarez Arizone State
Nathan Morgan Oklahoma State
Lewis Gonazales Bakersfield
Tirapelli-Illinois
Alex Herrera-Bakersfield
Ryan Williams-Missouri, Cal Poly
Jake Varner- Iowa State
Halsey-Cal Poly
Wade Sauer-Fresno State

Now show me how many of the 60 KS 2004 high school state champs are competing at the highest level in college.

Steel sharpens steel and that's why wrestling the best to win your state raises your game and gets you national recognition.

Alex,

\Id`i*oc"ra*cy\, n.; pl. Idiocrasies. [Idio- + Gr. ? a mixture, fr. ? to mix: cf. F. idiocrasie.] Peculiarity of constitution; that temperament, or state of constitution, which is peculiar to a person; idiosyncrasy.

If I understand this everyone's in a state of idiocracy. Thanks for sending me scurrying for my Websters though.

Young Mr. Ryan, in his youthful exuberance, misused his nouns. While I can not be certain, I believe the intended noun was "idiocy".

id·i·o·cy
n
1. an offensive term for extreme lack of intelligence or foresight
2. an offensive term for an extremely unintelligent or thoughtless act
3. an offensive term in a now disused classification system for mental disability (dated)

Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Kindly explain how an individual exceeds their state's population rankings?

I believe you are the only individual to mention California or New York on this thread.

Yes, I am familiar with the number of qualifying tournaments for the states which you mention. There is no question, based on population alone, regardless of the number of state classifications, it is more difficult to win a state championship in the two states you mention. It is also more difficult to win a state championship in IL, MI, PA, etc.

Population (2004)
United States: 293,655,404

California: 35,893,799
(ranks 1st out of 50 states)

New York State: 19,190,115
(ranks 3rd out of 50 states)

Kansas: 2,735,502
(ranks 33rd out of 50 states)
Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census

Shawn Bunch, Leavenworth High School, currently wrestling at Edinboro, 2nd place finisher at 2005 NCAA Division I National Championships.

Joe Johnton, Shawnee Mission East High School, currently wrestling at Iowa, 2nd place finisher at 2005 NCAA Division I National Championships.

Scott Coleman, Manhattan High School, wrestled for Iowa State, 7th place finisher at 2005 NCAA Division I National Championships.

Other qualifiers to the NCAA Tournament from Kansas were Justin Dyer, Jacob Klein,Jake Kriegbaum, and Matt Murray.

gutwrench1

I disagree with your contention that KSHSAA waters down the athletics in the great state of Kansas by offering more classifications and more state championships. Rather, I think they afford more opportunities so as to encourage participation and prevent the elimination of non-competitive programs. I do, however, appreciate you offering everyone information on how tough it is to be a state champion in CA and NY.

I am not sure how NY and CA handle their other sports? Do they have one basketball, one football and one track champion or is this just something that they do for wrestling? KSHSAA has not been welcome to the idea of a grand state or grand state dual tournament and are not open to the idea of extending the season as would probably be needed to host a sectional, district, regional and state tournament.

True, "steel sharpens steel," but the goal of KSHSAA is not to produce these elite athletes that are produced in NY and CA by only having one classification. I think there is much satisfaction in knowing that as a school of 100 students, I will be competing against schools in a similair range and have a realistic opportunity to be successful. With our small population, we can not afford to have programs eliminated because they would not be able to compete year in and year out with the larger classes. We want to find ways to have more programs and more opportunities and having multiple classes allows this to happen. There have been many elite wrestlers from Kansas come out of this system and have gone on to represent Kansas very well.

I am not sure where the comparison between the KS state tournament and the CA and NY tournaments was made. I think people were talking about KS elite wrestlers vs. CA and NY elite wrestlers and how they do on the national level.

Mr. Salyer,

I commend you on your strange ability to read into the intentions of posters on this forum. If was as perceptive as you I might surmise that you are suggesting the word idiocy rather than idiocracy is more appropriate.

Mr. Salyer, if you are going to address me would you mind sticking to debunking or even supporting my arguements rather than getting personal? And, while I'm asking you to tidy things up might I also ask you to encourage your young comrade to do the same? Thank you, Mr. Salyer

Mr. Dewitt,
Thanks but you're sounding more like a liberal Californian than a Kansan here. Do you mean that the CIF (California's KSHAA) doesn't care about wrestling and other sports in all of the many small and rural towns in California because they have one champion per weight class? Are you saying that California, the most liberal state next to New York, is less sensitive to opportunity than Kansas? You say that when it's easier to be a state champ or placer or qualifier, it keeps kids participating and that's the goal. I don't accept the premise. I don't think kids in states with less classifications and fewer state champions quit wrestling because the goal is too high. Relatively speaking Kansas's 4 classifications waters down the relative value of being a Kansas state champion. Knowing Kansas kids I think they'd rather have 15 state champs than 60. They're not afraid of making it more difficult and meaningful.

Well, so much for not getting personal. Good to see old gutstench back for another season of bulletin board abuse. As usual he/she picks a fight upon entering our sanctuary. One question, why not hang on the NY or CA boards if they are so sacred to you? When Nigel shows up we'll have the whole gang back for the season.

Shucks, in my previous post, I thought I asked several questions, while recognizing the obvious.

Also, the association which you refer is the Kansas State High School Activities Association (KSHSAA), not KSHAA.

I am flattered. I have never been called a liberal in my life. Maybe that University of Kansas education is finally starting to rub off on me. I think you assume too much from my response. I have never said that the CIF doesn't care about wrestling nor that they are less sensitive to the opportunities of wrestling. I can not speak as to what the goals of the CIF are, but I am glad that they are satisfied with their treatment of wrestling. Is there a reason why they do not do this for all sports?

All the state of Kansas and KSHSAA would have to do is extend the season one more week, have a Grand State tournament and then annoint one state champion per year. Even if that were the case, I am quite certain that NY and CA would still proclaim how difficult their tournament is because of the sheer number of participants that compete each year and what it would take to go through that many people.

You've made your point that it is more difficult to be a state champion in CA or NY and I don't think anyone is here to argue that statement. Most people were already aware of that. I would not expect you accept my premise. I don't think kids in states with less classifications and fewer state champions quit wrestling because the goal is too high either. Nobody believes that, at least not for wrestlers. My concern was for the elimination of programs because of their inability to compete with larger schools.

Relatively speaking Kansas's 4 classifications waters down the relative value of being a Kansas state champion. Relative to what? California or New York? or just being a state champion in general? Due to sheer numbers, Kansas will always be relative to either state based on population alone. That is why I believe people are stating on this post that Kansas does well at a national level versus more populous states that have a much larger pool to pull their "studs" from.

If you are saying that being a state champion in Kansas is watered down because there are four classifications, then you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I won't attempt to change it.

As per this post. I do believe that 5A will be very diffucult this year with the addition of STA and Emporia.

Gutwrench,
Good to have you back on the forum to shake things up. I coached in the CIF for several years, many times against national powers Poway and Calvary Christian. Having experienced their system first hand, i still would put up many of the Kansas kids i have been around as equal competitors.
I don't think KSHSAA waters down anything with the current classification system. Kids are kids, coaching is coaching, it is all relative. Sectional champions in CA are very much treated like state champs here, your exceptional kids go to the masters tournament for a true state championship, but you have the same controversy there with some geographical areas and sections being a bit easier than others.
I think if you look at our national level teams over the next couple of years, you will see how successful kansas kids can be.

I hope you enjoy the upcoming season,i assume you are not coaching this year?

Here's your great CA wrestlers against a few KS wrestlers:

Josh Baldridge, KS dec.Dustin Rocha, CA; 7-2
Consolation Pigtails

Curtis Chenoweth, KS Maj. Dec. Kyle Dubs, CA; 13-1
Championship Third Round

Michael Sprigg, KS WBF over Jared Schwanz, CA; Fall: 3:45
Championship Third Round

Curtis was never a Kansas High School State Champion, a runner-up his senior year was his best finish, but he majored a CA state champ or runner-up in the god's gift to wrestling state of California. Sprigg pinned one of them. You're right Kansas has nothing to prove....

Alex

Gutwrench, as you can see by looking at Bronco Wrestler's spelling of my name, and by looking to the left of the screen where my name is posted, or at my signature for all that matters, my name is Curtis Chenoweth, and there is clearly and e there, and not an i. I am glad that your back to bash Kansas wrestling, but please, spell names right when you try to make a point. And I did not beat a California state champion, but he was a state placer.

sprtsfan,
Always good to hear from you. As a liberal, I certainly meant no disrespect to Mr. DeWitt. I enjoy and respect the way he approaches a discussion. I've learned something from what he's taken the time to write. I can't say the same about your post.

Bronco---Darn those facts. Wrestling USA Magazine had Baldridge was ranked 5th. Rocha was 24th and finished 4th in CA this year. Chenoweth, note the spelling correction, says he didn't beat a CA state champ, but he obviously has the right to feel good about a quality win. Bronco do you have the same problem with your wrestling? Do you let emotion get in the way of methodically picking apart an opponent?

Mr Deere, you are in the best position to make a comment here on the comparison. Thanks for your insight.

Mr Salyer, none of the great KS wrestlers you mention doing well in college are from the 60 KS State Champions of 2004. I'm not debating that great individuals rise to the top regardless of how little the system helps them accomplish their goals.

Among the 17 states with less population than Kansas are there any with as many classes as 4? So could we say that relatively speaking their are a states with less meaningful state wrestling tournaments?

Folks, who wouldn't want to go see a Kansas state tournament if all the best kids went against one another? Rather, you're talking about how tough STA and Emporia are making 5A. That's weak. Sorry the BTK caught during the 2005 state tournament about 4 blks from the Wichita Coliseum was the only interesting thing to come out of your 2005 tournament.

So the proof of your argument is that none of our redshirt freshmen or sophomores has reached AA yet?

sptsfn-- I'm not talking about AAs. the CA list I provided from 2004 was a list of kids participating on elite college programs not AAs. Take Eric Lueke. He went to Colby JC and I'm sure he's glad he did but he's a top talent that had to earn it by proving himself on the JC scene for 2 years. Same for Murray. I know Kansas's State Universities are to blame. But, we might give these kids more exposure if we didn't KSHSAA didn't hide them in the charade of 4 classifications.

I stand corrected! In my haste to answer your question, I failed to recognize the qualifying statement regarding the class of 2004. The only participant at the NCAA Division I Championships from this class was Jake Kriegbaum from Abilene High School and a true freshman qualifier from Air Force Academy.


Inasmuch as there is no benefit to be derived from researching other states classification system, I will not do the research to answer this question.

What qualifies you to determine that one states championship wrestling tournament is less meaningful than another? Is an IL, OH or PA state championship tournament more meaningful than a CA state championship tourmanent?

I do not believe you will find any individual who is involved with wrestling in this state who will disagree with this statement.

The addition of Emporia and STA to the 5A classification strengthens the quality of this class while weakening the quality in 6A.

The only weak comment(s) on this thread are your statements which were off topic. As stated earlier, you are the individual to bring up CA and NY, the other posters were commenting on the 5A classification, flawed it may be, which they compete in.

To the contrary, the statement, intended or not, was denigrating the athletes. As in life, there are certain issues which are beyond ones control, and these athletes, while dealing with an imperfect system, will be endeavoring to reach an elusive goal.

The CA list you provided includes Jake Varner, who was not involved in an elite college program in 2004. Based on this error, I must ask if Jake is the only wrestler from the class of 2005 to be included with the class of 2004?

I am not sharpest crayon in the box, therefore I will not attempt to reply to this convoluted garble.

***SWISH*** with the most intelligent use of words.

If you don't intended to take anything away from the athletes that are working so hard then why do you make the following statement?

To me that statement is an insult to every Kansas State champ, placer, or wrestler who has ever competed for the "joke" (your words not mine) of becoming a state champion. What you said definitely takes something away from their accomplishments.


I think almost everyone associated with Kansas wrestling feels very fortunate that you are NOT in charge (and this has nothing to do with wanting it to be easier- but instead is an indication of our concern with the development of the entire student-athlete, not just national caliber wrestlers, which we do a pretty good job of anyway).

Just off the cuff here. What Gutwrench is essentially talking about is a grand state, or single classification state. Here is my question. How many states have that, and who are they? If not very many, it seems to me that Kansas is following suit with what most other states are doing.

Okay you knuckle heads, you get one more crack and then you're off the show. Just curious. Is it the wind off the Kansas prairie that makes it so difficult for you to understand this? The list I researched comprised 2004 California State Champs and where they are now. Not that they AA or qualified in the 2005 season just that they made it into an elite college program. The point being that CA's 15 are more recruited and recognized than our 60. I could do the same for Ohio, Ill, PA, NY, NJ, etc. Furthermore, it's the 4 classifications in Kansas that hides talent. What's so difficult about grasping that? I guess it must be the constant howling of the wind against your sod homes.

That last bit about the sod homes, that was a little funny, I must admit.

Okay ... it's time to chime in! I support Gutwrench1's premise that the Kansas system does not select the “elite” wrestlers in a given weight class. Given this opinion, I will quickly counter (for fear that someone will suggest I need chapstick) and also agree with the esteemed Coach DeWitt.

If the goal of KHSHAA, is to produce “the elite” wrestler, then I would suggest that we fail in that regard. But if the goal of KSHSAA is to produce good student-athletes then I think that that goal is being met.

I would venture to suggest that it is not the duty of any public school system to produce the elite wrestler. I would also suggest that looking at the number of State titles a wrestler holds … does not correlate with their placement on the elite level. Jamil Kelley, might support Gutwrench1’s ideas. He was never a State title-holder in California but is clearly, an elite wrestler. As far as Kansas, Neil Erisman, has yet to wear a State crown (any one of the four per weight class) and while I can’t put him on the same level as Kelley (yet) he may in fact be our states best wrestler.

I’ve got some other thoughts but I’m running out of time. More later …

Gutwrench - I think I get the point you are making. Simply put - it takes more to be a State Champion in a single classification state like California then it does in a multiple classification state like Kansas. And you feel that by being a multi classification state Ks State Champions don't have as much respect on a national level. I think this view assumes coaches at universities are only looking at the State championship title and not the individual kid. Assume a state champ from California moved to Kansas for his senior year. Is he a worse wrestler the day he wakes up in Kansas? No. Assume a Kansas State Champion moves to California for his senior year. Is he a better wrestler the day he wakes up in California? No. Calfifornia has a much larger population. They should have more kids competiting at a national level. The better question would be if they have more as a percent of their population than Kansas.

One area where CA is way ahead of Kansas is in emphasizing freestyle and greco. Many of the youth programs do not wrestle any folkstyle until the kids are cadet and junior ages to coincide with high school. My son wrestled in SDIKWA out of San Diego and they use a blended style that emphasizes freestyle scoring. It was bizarre coming from the midwest and intially i thought it was crazy, but i sure saw it pay off down the road for a lot of kids. I do think it helps the exposure of their elite wrestlers to college programs and also helps ensure that
they dont have that drop off of kids like we do from folkstyle to freestyle.

Okay, I did some research and I shouldn't have spent the the time.

Here are the states ranking in pop from 34-50 by number of classifications for high school wrestling. Remember KS ranks 34 with about 2.8 million people

Idaho

Okay, a little research for anyone who may find this interesting.

Here are state rankings in pop less than KS by number of classifications for high school wrestling. KS ranks 33 with about 2.8 million people..Iowa has more pop and 3 wrestling classes. An ugly exception is UT about the size of KS with 5 classes.

ID 4
WV 2
NM 3
NV 3
NE 4
NH 2
RI 2
DE 1
VT 1
HI 1
ME 3
MT 3
ND 2
WY 3
AK 2

Coach Twinkee,
I have great respect for all KS state placers and champs. I have even more admiration for wrestlers who work their tails off and never medal in any tournament but never quit trying. I'm questioning the system not the student-athletes. I feel that setting the bar higher would bring more interest to our state event and more exposure to some of our better kids. Coaches and people invested in KS wrestling should continue to bring change to the system and their knowledge of the sport. Like the proposal for a state dual tournament which they have in nearby Iowa and Oklahoma and many other states. I commend those involved with trying to bring that change to KS. This is a thread about classifications so I've suggested fewer would be better for Kansas.

In your (gutwrench1) previous post you mentioned that you've never (as coach twink mentioned) taken anything away from a KS wrestler (placer or not) let me remind you of a past post or two:

1. posted October 04, 2005 04:22 PM: "4 state champs in every weight class is a joke."
2. posted October 05, 2005 12:42
PM: "Relatively speaking Kansas's 4 classifications waters down the relative value of being a Kansas state champion."
3. posted October 05, 2005 02:29 PM: Sorry the BTK caught during the 2005 state tournament about 4 blks from the Wichita Coliseum was the only interesting thing to come out of your 2005 tournament."

You know I could really dive into your remarkably down-grading comments but your hardly worth the time. But I can't simply stand to read your posts with such disrespect to those that have competed over the years. I haven't a clue who you are but my guess is you haven't contributed much value of any worth to the KS wrestling community nor should you be a part of it - but there are numorous kids that competed last yr. at state that I'm sure would like to have a little "one-on-one" time with you in regards to your post commenting on the BTK comparison. Move or stay in CA - we in KS are doing just fine and will continue to get better.

In regards to the discussion - I totally agree with Mr. DeWitt. Coach Twink(ee) - how's that fit Coach?

Let's not forget the following gutstench attempt at drive-by smack from another thread.....
"There are a handful of good guys like Coach Ulmer in Kansas who have given much to the sport they love and passed that on to so many kids."

Only a "handful" of "good guys" that have "given much" to the sport "in Kansas"? Funny, I can think of, know of, or heard of hundreds. Just because someone doesn't coach or teach the gutstench way they are suddenly not genuine or sincere in what they do. I don't know what some Kansas coach or wrestler has done to gutstench in the past to make him/her so bitter towards the state in general, but it must have been embarrarssing.

Ol' Dog-

I have to agree with you completely- and I keep forgetting the bottom line:

HE ISN"T WORTH THE TIME!

Can't wait for season to start (after football season is over of course)!

March 29th 3:57 pm So is Gut going to come out of the closet?

March 30th 9:05 pm I'm still curious where all this vast knowledge of the sport comes from...

Red

Gut,
I personally enjoy your banter and find a lot of validity in the "kernel" of what you are saying. The other stuff, the put downs, slams etc. well it appears to me you borrow and manipulate from such from ---Rush Limbaugh-esq
radio talk show type tactics. You stir things up that is good. Reveal your identity if you could and help us instigate positive changes in Kansas Wrestling

Thanks for all the nice compliments and re-publishing some of my best shots. I get it. You're not looking for anyone to challenge your little fiefdoms. You're comfortable in the safety net and shelter that high school can provide an adult. Middle aged guys, balding, maybe a tad bit overweight and anxious to teach a whole new crop of kids the tight waist, chop an arm, grab a wrist, put the knee in the butt, and ride parallel for 2 periods. Then, your ref buddies will once again call stalling on the bottom guys and the bizarre sanctity of what you've created will be preserved. What's that ad? Real American Heroes..."Today we salute you Mr. Kansas Wrestling Coach. You learned all your moves in a 1950s illustrated classic, Modern Wrestling. Hey, nice tights. You want 6,8 or even 10 classes in the state. Whatever it takes to finally win that elusive team title. So blow that whistle, Mr. Kansas Wrestling Coach and get on with that spin drill."

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the salute.

In regards to riding the hips, it's hard to feel sorry for a kid that let's himself get ridden out for two periods. So if your strategy is to ride and stall and my kid's strategy is to lay there and do nothing about it, then I would agree that I have done a poor job of coaching and or motivating my athlete. In some cases, a kid is just simply overpowered and it falls into the hands of the referee to make a good judgement call. But, part of the nature of wrestling is to prove dominance and control which some coaches teach by emphasizing riding. I think your beef might be with the officials and not with particlar coaches.

I think calling the high school setting a shelter and a safety net is unfair. With so few college opportunities for wrestling in the state of Kansas it would seem reasonable to believe that most coaches in the state do not have college experience, nor can they expect to advance to a college coaching level. Fortunately the KWCA does a great job every fall of bringing in great coaches for our clinic where we can get ideas on how to raise the level of our program and bring in innovative approaches.

I would like to read this 1950's classic. If anyone has a copy could you please forward it to me? I think a great deal can be learned from stdying the classics. I am sure that it is filled with great fundamental drills that will help me instruct some of the kids just trying the sport for their first time in high school. In the meanwhile, I will continue to review technique tapes and bounce ideas off of other coaches so that I can continue to find ways to become a better coach.

There is nothing wrong with wearing tights. Nor having a mullet for that matter. I had both as a freshman in 1988. With the prevelance of skin disease in our sport, tights just may be poised to make a revival. As for mullets, I put that in there because I think they look cool, especially with some Def Leopard playing in the background.

Four classes works just fine. In reality there could be one class or ten classes and my goals for each season would not change: win league, win regionals, win state. I have yet to do either one of those yet, but if I could just get my hands on that book...

Spin drill is a great warm up exercice especially if you move your chest in a square around his back and push his head in the mat every time you go around front.

I am a Kansas Wrestling Coach. Thank you.

I say, I say....it's time to tell gutwrench1 goodnight............and......sweet dreams!

Coach DeWitt (KWCA Academic chairman) you are a class act… as well as the rest of “teachers” that have dedicated their lives to the betterment of today’s youth. First and foremost you are educators, this should be your primary responsibility. A good educator will make a good Coach. Whether in a classroom or a mat room teaching is teaching. You give countless hours to a sport that you love with very little in return other than knowing that you might make a lasting impression on a young individual. You are also building character and teaching lessons in loyalty, dedication and sportsmanship. Wrestling for most will not pay the bills but a good education, along with for mention traits is a step in right direction. Thanks to all of the folks that “teach” and Coach. There is no need to defend yourself. But you have got to admit the “Great American Hero” thing was pretty creative.

Well said Red and Coach DeWitt!

PS: Red I hear Mikey will be helping out at MHS this year. Coach Gonzalez sounds like he is going to have a pretty good crop of assistants to work with! I'm sure Mikey will make a great coach. Tell him not to worry about what the ignorant people (like our friend in the posts above) has to say. He'll make positive impacts in those kids lives!

I have tried but I count not just let it go.
I am not too concerned with gutwrench1's thoughts and subsequent comments. He is certainly entitled to his opinions and they do make for good discussion, but here are some thoughts.
First of all, it is a good thing that Cael Sanderson did not go to high school in Utah the "ugly exception" where they have 5 classes in a sparsely populated state where wrestling would be "watered down" by a "meaningless" state championship that is a "joke" and where wrestler's talent is hidden amongst the "charade" of 5 classifications and would thus receive "no exposure" because "the bar is not set high enough". Furthermore his 4 state titles would mean nothing

Wait a minute, Sanderson did go to Utah. But his 4 state titles would mean nothing even though he won 4 National titles and an Olympic gold. My question is, how did he ever get recruited?

Second, if kids in Kansas or anywhere for that matter want to be really recognized/exposed, they can go to Sr. Nationals, Fargo or the National duals. Take for instance Erisman who was already pointed out. He has not even won a "class" state title let alone a "grand state" state title and he is heavily recruited and tabbed for O'State because he went to the National duals in Enid and kicked some rear and then went and placed at Fargo.

Third, I can guarentee you that people are looking at Kansas because of our success at Sr. Nationals and the National duals where we almost always place in the top ten in folkstyle, freestyle and greco. In fact, the year that Kansas placed third in the National duals in freestyle, who did they beat for third and forth? That's right, your beloved California. Plus we have had great success recently at the DI's.

Forth, I do not give a rat's patootie about wrestlers in Califonia. They already have everything, mountains, beaches, canyons, waterfalls, giant forests, volcanoes, deserts, Disneyland, Hollywood, Seaworld, the Golden Gate Bridge, Pro football teams, Pro baseball teams, Pro basketball teams, etc., etc., etc. Do they really need more than one state championship. Whereas our poor miserable wrestlers in Kansas have nothing. Aren't we at least entitled to more than one wrestling class. I will certainly not feel bad for California wrestlers, they should be very thankful.
And I am sorry, I mispelled can.

In all seriousness though, I am more upset about the comment made by someone else that the big schools in Kansas did not win state titles until the classes were split. This historian needs to check the history. Of the first twenty state championships held in Kansas under one class, 12 titles were won by two Wichita schools, that's dominance. In the fifties, the district's two schools were broke up because they were too big and more emphasis switched to basketball. At the point, the tide turned somewhat. And also, up to that point, Topeka and Kansas City did not even care about wrestling, they were into the more popular Basketball. In the fifties, after Wichita was broke up. Saint Francis, Colby, Oberlin and Norton took the reigns for the time. And furthermore, the last two state titles won in 1964 and 1965 right before "the split" were won by Newton and Ark City (5A schools presently), not a "small school". At that point, KSHSSA in their infinite wisdom probably saw the writting on the wall. Did you ever think that one of the reasons that the small schools might have been so "dominate" in the 50's and early 60's was because most of the best athletes in the bigger schools were playing basketball and not wrestling. Perhaps the small schools put more emphasis into wrestling because they could not beat the "big schools" in football, basketball and baseball. Do you believe that kids in small schools in Western Kansas are inherently tougher, more athletic or better suited for wrestling than kids in larger schools. If you do, you had better think again. If that were the case, the small Western Kansas schools would still be "dominating" today and that is not the case. It will always be a number's game. Yes you will always have small schools like Norton, etc. that will compete with the big schools because of their tradition and the "individual sport" nature of wrestling but overall, as the bigger schools emphasize wrestling more and more, I only see that gap widdening.
Of course, I guess that it is all just my opinion.

Women! Don't forget the women!

Just thoughts:

Gutwrench -

- Don't confuse qualitative assessment with quantitative research. Your number crunching was accurate up to the point that you concluded that because CA or NY wreslters were more numerous, than they HAD to be better. That's truly mixing apples and oranges. Presumptively, more does not necessarily mean better.

- You've stated an adequate position on state classifications that, ultimately, revolves around the issues of what our state athletic board feels is paramount. Those being (and Mr. Salyer or some with more detailed research capabilities to list the goals of the KSHSAA) to provide student athletes wtih OPPORTUNITY to compete at state level.

- I don't believe that the state association should even attempt to try to designate a single champion for the state...it simply returns nothing for the effort expended other than to appease those fans -like yourself- who wish to have 'the answer'. I would like to see a state dual competition...but that's another (albeit old) thread entirely.

- Your base presumption is skewed. State high school athletics are NOT designed for the production of national collegiate competitors...regardless of how many fans wish it to be. High school athletics are EXTRA-CURRICULAR in scope and function and any benefit for collegiate programs is strictly ancillary.

- Anonymity has a price as well. Identiy lends credence to your 1) knowledge/background and 2) credibility. Absence of such tends to mitigate anything, rightly or wrongly, you might eschew.


Tim Shea

I agree with Mr. Shea. If you want to have an opinion that's great. If you want it be taken seriously please provide some credability to what you're saying. You could be a kid in high school who won just 1 match or cael sanderson who knows. Please provide us your identity you've been saying will be let out shortly. Just tell us so maybe we can take you seriously.

Alex

HERE IS A FEW QUESTIONS FOR ALL OF THE NEGATIVE POSTERS.

WHAT CREDENTIALS DO YOU HAVE TO ACCURATELY STATE THAT 1 WRESTLER IS BETTER THEN THE OTHER, JUST BECAUSE THERE IS 1 OR 4 STATE CHAMPIONS PER WEIGHT? DO YOU HAVE PERSONAL KNOWLEGE TO SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENTS? IF YOU ARE FROM OUT OF STATE, WHAT STATE ARE YOU FROM AND WHAT IS THEIR SYSTEM?

TALK IS CHEAP.IN THE END EACH WRESTLER HAS TO PROVE IT ON THE MAT.

MY HAT GOES OFF TOO ALL WRESTLERS WINNERS AND LOOSERS. THEY ALL GAVE IT THEIR BEST TRY.

ONE MORE THING, THIS WHOLE ARGUMENT CAN BE SAID OF EACH SPORT, NOT JUST WRESTLING.

THANK YOU

KANSAS STATE HIGH SCHOOL ACTIVITIES ASSOCIATION

MISSION STATEMENT
Goals that Influence Student Learning Outcomes
The Kansas State High School Activities Association advocates principles and sponsors services which assure that the state’s middle level and high school students gain a balanced preparation for life, work, and post-secondary education.

Principles on Which Intended Outcomes are Based
Principles advocated by the association are promotion of scholastic achievement as a fundamental basis for a well-balanced activity program, and development of effective citizenship through the practice of good sportsmanship.

Services to Accomplish the Mission
Services provided by the association are:
1. sponsorship of educational workshops, seminars, conferences and publications designed to inform and positively influence students, parents, educators and community members in accordance with organizational principles;
2. administration of a program of interscholastic activities, festivals, clinics and contests among member schools;
3. protection of member schools from exploitation by special interest groups; and
4. communication with policy-making bodies to influence decisions consistent with association principles and operational standards.

Gutwrench: "Knuckle heads??" "Middle aged, balding, maybe a tad bit overweight??" And we should be respecting your opinion?
"Pretty soon I am going to reveal my identity and make all of you feel like idiots??" There is no chance of me feeling like an idiot because of who you are. In life, it is what/how you are, not who you are.
Actually, I know who you are, I just flushed you down the toilet. For a Hall of Famer, you show little class or dignity.

Bracket man, were you in my bracket at the NCAAs? I don't remember seeing you on the awards stand. Flush. Classifications that are based on the size of a school presumes that the larger schools have an advantage. That logic, while it may have once served KSHSAA, is flawed today. There is virtually no corelation between wrestling quality and school population. In Kansas the largest high schools are Wichita East, Shawnee Mission West, Derby, Shawnee Mission East and Olathe East. Does anyone think these programs have an unfair advantage because of their student populations? Do kids going to 5A and 6A schools deserve an easier time qualifying, placing or winning state than a kid from say Abilene, Columbus,etc. Is there anything more equitable about giving kids in the Olathe and Shawnee school districts an easier road to State because of the size of the school? They already come from the state's highest family income brackets and have more cash available for camps and off-season tournaments. In several of these 6A regions there are less than 8 kids in the brackets. So a coach throws a kid with no varisty experience into the region because they might qualify with one or no wins. That's a weak system and, might I remind you, what you're defending. The fact is that wrestling has no greater following at larger schools. Many of the bigger schools have the smallest squads and least participation. Now I think it's kind of a disservice to kids to give them a state qualification with one or no wins. That's an example of how the KSHSAA system waters down wrestling in Kansas. With respect to the high-minded academician on this board, please explain how the current classification system meets KSHSAA's high-minded mission statement? How does lowering the bar serve to prepare kids for a competitive society? Does the ACT give consideration to the population of a school before handing out a test score? I've said before great individuals find their way to the top no matter how little a system helped or hindered them. So the fact that Sanderson or Bunch/Johnston/Roberson made it to the top doesn't mean that high school classifications shouldn't be re-evaluated. KSHSAA can claim no credit for what the elite wrestlers have achieved because it fails to wrestle the best kids against one another.

I anyone is foolish enough to think that Cael Sanderson was discovered by colleges while winning one of the 5 state championships in Utah, then I have some 9th Ward Lousiana real estate to sell you. His dad and high school coach at Wasatch high school told me a few years ago that it was the fact that Cael wrestled more than 1000 matches outside of high school during his youth that gave him an edge. That's a heck of a commitment by athlete and family. Don't confuse things.

GUTWRENCH1, some of what you say is true but much of what you say is true in Kansas but not in other states. In Kansas, basketball is king and not wrestling. Wrestling in Kansas, other than Wichita, was born and grew up in the small western towns. The bigger schools, particularly Kansas City and Topeka and now even more Wichita than in the past did not and do not care about wrestling. In some cases, the kids that are wrestling (as bad as this may sound) are wrestling because they are not athletically suited to make the basketball team. That is not the case in the smaller schools. Many are wrestling because of the tradition of their family or the program. Those smaller schools have always been good and their tradition carries forth today. That is why small, particularly Western, schools in Kansas like Norton, St. Francis, etc. are able to compete with the "big boys". In some cases, wrestling is just now taking hold in the bigger schools as they become more serious. As a result, the bigger schools are closing the gap and in some cases have closed the gap. As these larger schools continue to emphasize wrestling, if they do, the trend will continue and they will pass the smaller schools by. Just look at schools like Manhattan, Aquinas, Carroll and Turner. That is what has happened in some other states like Oklahoma where Perry used to be the supreme king but cannot compete any longer with the bigger schools. And you are wrong if you believe there is no correlation between size of school and team quality. Maybe not in Kansas for the reasons that I mentioned in this post and the previous posts. But in most other states, where wrestling is king and not basketball or in states where the bigger schools have competed as long in wrestling as the smaller schools there is a correlation. Just look at Oklahoma. Perry, which has won more state titles in wrestling than any other school in the country, won 2A last year. Cushing which also has its share of titles won 3A. Both would be destroyed, and I mean destroyed, by El Reno the 4A champ and Ponca City the 5A champ (there is no 6A) and it has been that way for a long time. I know this because I lived it. I coached in Oklahoma for ten years.
Also, your commment about Sanderson is ridiculous because that is what I was just saying in my post to prove your comment wrong and now you bring him up to back your comments. You said that number of classifications affects recruitment and you brought up Utah as an ugly exception because it had MORE classes than Kansas. I was showing that Sanderson still got recruited even though he went to Utah. I also brought up Erisman to show that number of classes is not what gets someone recruited but more, what have they done outside of their own backyard. Erisman, who has won no state titles even in 4A let alone a "grand state" state title, is heavily recruited, not because of his state or class but because he has competed across the country against other states. Yes, duh, that is the same reason that Sanderson was recruited not because the state or class or number of state titles.
You crack me up, and I am dying to know who this "hall of famer" is that knows everything, especially how crappy Kansas coaches are because they are in Kansas and how crappy Kansas wrestlers are because Kansas has too many classes.

And again, gutwrench1, you may even be one of my friends, or at least a colleague. If you are, I hope that you are still my friend because my grandfather always told me, "win an argument, lose a friend". And, I do not want that.