EJ may have been able to competed with Hammer for 215, but even if he could have won the spot you still had one potential state placer out the mix for Aquinas due to the lack of weight classes for heavier wrestlers.

Also I will challenge your statement about Hammer not being that awesome because he took fifth in 5A. I think 215 5A was a very difficult weight class this year. I know that at Blue Valley Northwest's Husky Invitational this year that Curtis (6th at State in 5A) took first and Hammer took second. I believe this year's 6A 215 champion who is a also a very good wrestler took fourth at the Husky this year.



I am suggesting at the national level. However, two years ago Aquinas wrestled in a Texas tournament and Texas had that extra 180 class. Aquinas adjusted to it as that gave my son an opportunity to wrestle a varsity tournament that year. He was running second team at 189 last year to EJ Walter and EJ was a light 189 last year so he was able to wrestle 180 in Texas for this one tournament. I don't forsee that Kansas would go alone with an extra weight class like Texas does with 180 but I think Kansas would survive if it did decide to put in an extra weight class for heavier wrestlers.

Alex,

I am talking about all classes not just 6A or 5A. As far as your point about the smaller schools having trouble now filling all the weight classes, I must admit I am not aware of that problem, but one of my main objectives with the proposal to add one or two classes for heavier kids is to attract more heavier kids into wrestling. I really do believe that many football players do not want to cut weight to make 189 or 215 because they want to put on muscle weight instead for football. If they did not have to cut as much weight maybe more would come out and I think that could be true for smaller schools too. I just want to see wrestling grow and for there to be more opportunity for the bigger kids in wrestling.

Also realistically, I know if any weight classes were to be added it would only be one weight class. For that reason what I would propose would be to lower 189 to 185, add the extra weight class at around 200 to 205 and raise 215 to around 225 to 230 so those 230-245 wrestlers you referred to would still be in the 285 class.

Chief Renegade, I would add that it also does not make it a bad stance. I am sure that Richard has heard of Plato's famous saying that "Necessity is the mother of invention." Another one attributed to David Rockerfeller is "If necessity it the mother of invention, discontent is the father of progress".

I was reading an article printed in the Kansas City Star this weekend in its Parade Magazine insert this Sunday called Do you have a better idea? by Ian Ayres and Barry Nalebuff. It started off with these two paragraphs.

"Back in the days of typewriters, the mother of the Monkees guitarist Mike Nesmith got tired of retyping to correct mistakes. So Bette Nesmith cooked up the first batch of Liquid Paper in a blender and poured it into a nail-polish container. She eventually sold the business to Gillette for $48 million.

To come up with great ideas, you just need to pay attention to things that annoy you. And you have to be willing to challenge the status quo. Creativity isn't some magical process. It's often possible to generate great ideas by taking an existing approach and simply flipping it around..."

Well I guess only two weight classes for 91 pounds (215 and 285) after 189 annoys me. And I am willing to challenge the status quo if I believe I have an idea that could improve something.

Vince -
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike your idea. I just don't think it is going to happen. At least, I don't think it is going to happen by posting on the Kansas talk forum. Maybe letters to the National High School Coaches Association or something. If this topic was milk its shelf life would have long expired.

And I thought Frank Zappa was the mother of inventions.

Okay Richard besides my last reply to Chief Renegade that self interest is not necessarily a bad thing since necessity is often the mother of invention, I want to respond to your comment about the benefits to my son as the reason for my supporting this proposal.

I think you might be the only one worried that the powers to be are going to read my post and actually add another weight class in time to benefit my son in high school. In no way do I think that this proposal of mine would be enacted anytime soon by the powers to be. My son only has two years left. He weighs about 225 and has been putting on 20 pounds of muscle weight (not obese weight) a year since he was in 120 12&U as a sixth grader as a result of his year around strength training. His goal for both football and wrestling is to put on another 20 to 25 pounds of muscle weight this year for his junior year of competition. That would put him at 245 to 250 and he would still be in the heavyweight division anyway. His only potential for gain would be if they bumped 215 up to 225 or 230 that there would be a few less competitors in 285. But as I previously stated I have no illusions that any new weight class would be added before he graduated anyway. I would love to see it. The sooner the better as far as I am concerned but I am pretty sure it will not happen that soon.

I really do see this as unfair to heavier wrestlers, so I would like to see that corrected for future wrestlers. I also really want to see wrestling grow in participation and popularity and I believe this would help that happen. If you want to look at it that it is because of self interest for my son's benefit, go ahead. I wonder how you explain my continued support for not having 8th graders compete against 9th graders at Kids State? Is that self interest to benefit my son too who is now in 10th grade?

Mr. Disney,

Maybe Zappa was the mother of inventions. I just goggled the saying today and they attributed it to Plato. I am just trying to change some opinions on this in the forum with the thought that more support might make it more likely to someday happen. People have changed my opinions on things in the forum before. Jeff Broadbent, sportsfan02 and some others have changed my opinion on the 6&U at Kids State issue. I agree with you that the more likely way to make it happen would be to petition the NHSCAA group and I will do that based on your advice and I believe of Klint Deere in an earlier post.

Heck there are plenty of big schools that can't even fill a roster, that's why a lot of colleges drop wrestling too in my opinion...it all goes back to the high schools...an admin is more than likely to see his first wrestling match at a high school dual and have that stick with him if he moves on toward eventually being a big wig on the college scene...seeing forfeitures is a sign for me to say...WHOA!!! Let's find a sport that we can fill a roster, like Tennis or Golf.

Not sure how to word this, but what percentage of weight difference is there within the weight classes? ie: take the bottom weight of a class, and top weight of a class and figure the percentage difference between those wrestlers.

Mike:

See my opening topic introduction post. I included these numbers on it and I believe it answers your question.

103
112- 9 lbs - 8.74%
119- 7 lbs - 6.25%
125- 6 lbs - 5.04%
130- 5 lbs - 4.00%
135- 5 lbs - 3.85%
140- 5 lbs - 3.70%
145- 5 lbs - 3.57%
152- 7 lbs - 4.83%
160- 8 lbs - 5.26%
171- 11 lbs- 6.88%
189- 18 lbs-10.53%
215- 26 lbs-13.76%
285- 70 lbs-32.56%

Thanks Vince, it would have helped to start over on keeping up with this.

[quote=Husker Fan][quote=Disney]Vince -
Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike your idea. I just don't think it is going to happen. At least, I don't think it is going to happen by posting on the Kansas talk forum.

************************Its (the talk forum) as good as place as any to start. It doesn't have to be an either/or - it can and is a both/and. Talk it up. Write it up. Talk to 'low' folks. Talk to 'high' folks. Get the word OUT to any one and every one.

I wrestled 215 all of my high school then in college wrestled 197. I agree there sould be a weight class above it at about 235 but. If you look at it on a national scale most of the better hwts are around 235 to 245 weight then u have your few exceptions. How can you add something when the olympics is 264.2. It would be great but you have to look at it in alot of ways.

I simply do not see adding a heavier weight class. What I see as a possibility eventually is bumping 215 up to 220 or even 225. I know that there has been a little discussion on that, especially considering the fact that 275 was bumped 10 last season. There are not a lot of great athletes in the 225-285 pound range that have what it takes to stick with a wrestling program over the long haul. Don't get me wrong, there are some outstanding athletes there, simply not a lot of them, compared to the 135-171 areas, in my honest opinion. The national federation did some extensive surveying and research on this toic several years ago. Those heavier classes are already hard to fill. Please read my post on beating dead horses...

I know I saw a lot of them the one year I played college football at KSU in 1969. That was a long time ago and we had quite a few very good athletes on that team coached by Vince Gibson that were in the 225-285 range. Any high school wrestling team would have loved to had those guys on their team. KSU was not even an elite football program then. I think they were just over a .500 record team during the Gibson years. That was over 35 years ago. Kids are bigger today. Are you saying there are not that many great 225 to 285 pound athletes wrestling or you actually saying there are not that many 225 pound to 285 pound athletes period? If you mean all sports, realize that you are including a lot of football and even basketball players in that statement. If that is what you mean I think you would get a lot of disagreement from people across the country. Maybe not on this forum, since wrestling is a sport that traditionally has more smaller athletes but with the general sports public you would find a lot of people who would argue that point with you. I guess it depends on your background and perspective, I had a big argument with a pretty good ex-football player last year who told me he did not think wrestlers in general were that good of athletes even college wrestlers.

If you mean bumping up 215 to 220 or 225 without adding an additional weight class, you would just give the football coaches even more incentive to not encourage their players to wrestle after their football season. I doubt most football coaches whose players are around 200 to 220 during football season are very interested in having their players drop their weight to the 189 level.

As far as reading your dead horse post, I read your first paragraph and I read your first point. I stopped reading at that point because I did not consider it worth my time. That would be my advice to you on this topic too if it bothers you so much that I am beating on a dead horse. No one is making you read my stuff. Somehow though I kind of think that you and Richard both deep down really don't think this is a dead horse and are very concerned that one or two weight classes for heavier wrestlers will eventually be added and it might somehow adversely effect the number of classes for lighter wrestlers. I think you both know that kids are getting bigger today. I have been finding some studies that show how the mean weight for 15 to 18 year olds has been significantly rising since 1971. These numbers would not justify a division of 10 weight classes up to 160 and only four after 160. If this rising mean weight trend continues and it doesn't seem to be stopping, I think wrestling is going to be forced to adjust weights upward and offer more classes for heavier wrestlers.

Vince-

You also have to realize just because there were 30 kids in the 220-285 range were they all from the same school? No they were all spread out one from each or possibly two. I do not see a valid point in your point there.

Also the reason for the kids getting larger is largely due in part to physical inactivity, thus do they participate in sports especially as demanding as wrestling?

view this website, http://www.asbj.com/evs/05/studenthealth.html , and click on the average weight button on the right side of the article. It shows that the average high school male weighs 150.3 compared to the 135.5 in 1966. They have grown by 15lbs, thus the 10 lbs increase in the upperweights, so to duely justify that shift should we shift all the weights up 10lbs?

I couldn't find a chart showing the weight distribution of 18 year old males now, but I'm sure the 50th percentile would lie somewhere around 140-155lbs range, not anywhere near the 170-185 range justifying more weight classes up there.

Vince if you can find me the chart that shows where the median lies in the 50th percentile in the 170-185 range I'll join your cause to get another weight class. Until then i'll keep proving we don't need another weight class.

Very good points made. I remember Norton had a phenomenal hwt though that only weight 190lbs or so in the late 90's. We as a state could add a weight on our own (Texas has a 180 class and NY has a 95lb class)...however when you go to National Tournaments or anything out of state you have to go to one weight: 180 you go 189 or 171 come nationals and so on.

I think for duals it might not be bad to have an extra weight that way you can go tiebreaker and do heads up in breaking a tie (let's not allow ties anymore in duals please!)

Anyway that's my 2cents...

By the way I know about that 215 cut down in college...I went to 184 my 1st two years of wrestling in college. I'm just glad I didn't have Bojangles down in Oklahoma like you did out east (this is Josh right?)

Yes sir that bojangles is good. I made the cut down to 84 a couple of times also and it sucks.

Yeah its josh

The following is a data summary of the entries by weight classification at the recent NHSCA National Tournaments.

Senior Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 15 - 1.85%
112 - 39 - 4.80%
119 - 55 - 6.77%
125 - 66 - 8.13%
130 - 63 - 7.76%
135 - 67 - 8.25%
140 - 67 - 8.25%
145 - 81 - 9.98%
152 - 68 - 8.37%
160 - 66 - 8.13%
171 - 55 - 6.77%
189 - 62 - 7.64%
215 - 57 - 7.02%
285 - 51 - 6.28%
Total - 812

Junior Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 25 - 3.25%
112 - 62 - 8.06%
119 - 73 - 9.49%
125 - 69 - 8.97%
130 - 62 - 8.06%
135 - 72 - 9.36%
140 - 56 - 7.28%
145 - 60 - 7.80%
152 - 59 - 7.67%
160 - 53 - 6.89%
171 - 45 - 5.85%
189 - 47 - 6.11%
215 - 46 - 5.98%
275 - 40 - 5.20%
Total - 769

Sophomore Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 52 - 9.76%
112 - 49 - 9.19%
119 - 51 - 9.57%
125 - 56 - 10.51%
130 - 45 - 8.44%
135 - 41 - 7.69%
140 - 36 - 6.75%
145 - 40 - 7.50%
152 - 39 - 7.32%
160 - 33 - 6.19%
171 - 30 - 5.63%
189 - 28 - 5.25%
215 - 17 - 3.19%
285 - 16 - 3.00%
Total - 533

Freshman Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 75 - 22.12%
112 - 45 - 13.27%
119 - 38 - 11.21%
125 - 31 - 9.14%
130 - 25 - 7.37%
135 - 26 - 7.67%
140 - 12 - 3.54%
145 - 16 - 4.72%
152 - 18 - 5.31%
160 - 13 - 3.83%
171 - 13 - 3.83%
189 - 15 - 4.42%
215 - 7 - 2.06%
285 - 5 - 1.47%
Total - 339

Total All NHSCA Nationals
Wt. - Entries - % of Entries
103 - 167 - 6.81%
112 - 195 - 7.95%
119 - 217 - 8.85%
125 - 222 - 9.05%
130 - 195 - 7.95%
135 - 206 - 8.40%
140 - 171 - 6.97%
145 - 197 - 8.03%
152 - 184 - 7.50%
160 - 165 - 6.73%
171 - 143 - 5.83%
189 - 152 - 6.20%
215 - 127 - 5.18%
285 - 112 - 4.57%
Total - 2453

Vince-

Will you now please show me where there is such a need for another weight class? It appears there is equal opportunity in each weigth class above 160... the rest seem to be above the 6+/- % in the 171/189/215/285 weights. The data seems to show me that there is more participants in the lower to mid classes thus there should be more there. That's why there are 5lbs weight increaments as opposed to the greater weight classes above. If you split up the upper weights one more time it will lower the percentage of kids in each of the weight classes thereafter even more leading to less kids in each weight. Some times you just need to cut your losses....