Bookman,

I sympathize with your position. That is why my group made the decision to take Ottawa’s concept one step further and offer the kids that fell in the lower half of the 8U division the “next best thing”. On March 21st, 2008 the first whistle will kick of the 2008 6 & Under State - KS Tournament of Champions . I will explain more about this event later in my message, but first let’s talk about the past 10 years and how this issue has been shaped into the powder keg it is today.

I have been back in USAW for ten years now. In the early days of USAW the underclassman of the 8U division had no choice but to wrestle With the 7 and 8 year olds every weekend. Gradually over the course of time, the 6U subdivision spawned at weekend tournaments and it flourished. It has been able to stand on its own for some time. In 2001 and 2002 a 6U District Championship tourney was offered as part of many of the District Tournaments. It ran the same day and in conjunction with the state qualifier for the senior divisions. I believe that every District except D4 hand a 6U tourney in 2002. With these tournaments held the same day as older division qualifier, kids had to make a choice if they wanted to compete in the 8U Championship Series or the 6U District Championship tourneys. My son still has his plaques in his trophy case; it was a nice tournament and added closure to his early seasons. Around that same time a grass root effort to add the 6U division to the slate of divisions recognized by our organization was started. The concept was added to the agenda of the State Body meeting. Periodically the state body evaluates and makes changes to the other divisions as well. Qualifying birthdates have changed, weight classes have shifted, and certain weights have been eliminated all together. The Executive board does not have the power; nor do we, as a body, want it to have the power to make this decision on our behalf. Changes to the Age and Weight classification are presented and voted on by our body at large. As Randy has stated, each and every time this issue has been presented before our state body it is voted down by a majority of the clubs present.

This fact does not change the debate, each year this issue is debated. Usually in February and March the debate becomes heated. I have watched many in this division flourish over the years. I have also seen many pushed to burn out and they are not heard of the next year. I often agree with people from both sides of the debate. The issues surrounding it are complicated and as many in this thread have pointed out it is not just about the money. My club has 35 kids that fall in the lower half of the 8U division (in other words the under six division). So I am very aware of the impact these kids have on our wrestling community. In 2003 or 2004 Ottawa began offering an end of year option for this division and invited kids from the entire State. Over the past couple years, there have been many fine wrestlers compete in Ottawa’s gym bringing closure to their respective seasons. As that tournament developed, it wasn’t one that I would send every 6U kid in my room to. Only the best and most resilient kid under the age of six can wrestle through a four month season with enough in the tank to compete with the best kids in the state and advance through a 64 man bracket. That same could be said for the 8, 10, 12, 14, and 16 year old kids.

Two years ago I was sitting with a couple couches in my club discussing this issue. As could be expected, there were three opinions about the issue. But from that conversation a thought was spawned; even if it was a reach to add these kids to the State Championship Series in a division of their own why not give them the next best thing. We researched the venue and locked them down . On March 21 of this year we will run a 6 & Under State - KS Tournament of Champions event at the Kansas Expocentre. It will be in the same arena that our State Tournament is in the week following. We will run the tournament on 10 full mats. Plaques will be awarded to the top six placers of each weight class. We will make this event a quality event to bring closure to your young wrestler’s season. That is really what it is all about and it is what brings these kids back. Is the title these kids will walk away with a State Championship in the true since of the word…NO.? Is it any less meaningful…NO.?

But even this event has spawned its share of debate. Why Topeka? Why not just leave it in Ottawa? Why not this? Why not that? I know there will be issues and conflicts with the other qualifying tournaments; I do not have all the answers. It may be that depending on your situation you will have to make a choice of whether to compete with the rest of the 8U division in the State Championship Series or to come to Topeka. What I do know is this,come March 21st at 8:30 in the morning there will be a group of young wrestlers taking advantage of another great opportunity to wrestle with their peers for a title. I hope that each walk away with a good experience that they can carry with them throughout their wrestling careers. Why don’t you join us!

Mark Stanley
jrvikingwrestling@yahoo.com
under_six_kstoc@yahoo.com
785/224-5161

I'll try to summarize the big reasons why 6 and unders at state has been historically voted down.

1. Has your child played t-ball? You may have noticed that they do not keep score and bat around. You may have noticed that there is not a league championship for t-ball while there is for the older kids. They pay the same dues. It's not that people are against t-ball, it's just that most people feel that for the good of the kids, it should be less competitive that the older kids.

2. Space constraints at the state tournament. The state tournament is crowded. Maybe not so much in the stands, but there is little room on the floor for more mats, wrestlers and coaches.

You may think that the 16 and under division should be dropped in favor of 6 and unders, and that has been kicked around. Schroeder asked about my son and the fairness of it all. Here's my take on that. My son has been doing kids club for years. I have been coaching for years. My son helps the younger kids and I think the younger kids look forward to the older ones coming back. They look up to them and learn from them. Most of the older kids are very very good to the younger ones, and I think its a good thing for the sport. The ones who keep coming back have paid a lot of dues as have their families.

3. Space constraints at the qualifying tournaments. These are one day tournaments at much smaller venues than the state tourney. Many of them are taxed already in terms of mat space and time.

4. What do you actually remember prior to age 7? I have vague recollections of being a ring bearer, and a little bit about kindergarten. Qualifying for state wrestling at age 5 I don't think would have changed my life.

I understand this issue is important to you. I would like to explain that the "slow" people you refer to have paid more dues and volunteered more time and gone to more meetings and cleaned more mats and paid more money than you can possibly imagine. Hopefully wrestling will be as important to you and your kids when they are 14.

A stand alone 6 & under state tournament would still require a vote by the state body if it were to be sanctioned by USAWKS.
If a school were to host a Stand Alone 6 & Under state tournament not sanctioned by USAWKS they (the host club)would have to purchase additional outside insurance I assume - so that the school district or facility it was being held in were not liable for some unforeseen problem. The six and under participants still represent only 27% of the total USAWKS organization. I would like to see a poll of the KIDS - NOT THE PARENTS how important a state tournament is to them at 5 or 6 years old. I'll bet you they would want to know if Dippen Dots will be served. I have, informally over the years questioned past wrestlers (who started at 5 or 6 years old and some of them now are in or out of college, in their late 20's early 30's) and their parents about this issue and none of them said that I should change my vote on the 6 & Under State Tournament issue. Maybe, I am asking all the wrong people. There will be time for them to shine in the spot light. They (the current 6 & Unders) will be able to try to get to 10 more kids state tournaments and 4 high school state tournaments by their 18th birthday. The way 6 & Under State is set up now it is an Open tournament and anyone wanting to signup qualifies for state. All 1,847 can sign up for the 6 and under state tournament and be a state qualifier. My son is going into college next year and I did not see 6 & under state qualifier on his latest resume.

ok another painting of the picture session. i cant figure it out. its not about the darn medals. its about being fair. do you understand what fair is. you ask the 6 and unders to do everything that the older kids do but when joe who is 8 gets to go to state and mo and curly the twins at age 6 are over here and they have to sit at home or travel somewhere else to wrestle thats the problem i have. its about being left out. dont care about t-ball scores. i didnt ever like t-ball and will not let me kid play t-ball. they will move right into pitching machine at age 6 if thats will help that statement. i dont even think t-ball is a sport. now do you want to say that 6 and under wrestling is not a sport.

All righty then.

wrestling is the toughest sport out there. those 6 and unders work as hard as the others do. they may not care as much but i care as a parent and as a coach and would like to give them the same chance for a reward. i didnt say a reward. i said the same chance. chance, chance, chance, chance = fair, fair, fair, fair. thats what the bottom line is all about because i said so.

Question for those who vote against 6U: How would you vote if you had a 6U? No offense, but it is easy to vote against it when your children are 12 and 14. Personally I do not and will not have another 6U wrestler, but I still think they should be included.

keep the picture easy to see and colors bright so it gets there attention. i just asked my 6&u again if he "wanted" to wrestle in state or just watch his brother(8&u) wrestle at state. His reponse was "thats not fair I want to wrestle too." so I guess we wrestle a 6&u state tourny then go qualify in the 8&u division.

hey can you rub some of that toughness your boy has onto my boy. my son is the one who wrestles jackson hartley. well ok gets slammed by jackson. see ya at maize.

now thanks for the discussion today fellas. it let me vent a little. wont be back all day like i was today cause its back to work after a good ole snow day. i guess i will go watch an old fashioned butt whipping tonight as carroll whips up on those other guys on the other side of the tracks. have a good evening all and remember with the youngsters you will not have the oldsters.

we wont be at Maize the boys said the wanted to take the weekend off, when I asked them if they wanted to wrestle there.

Its very obvious only a foolish man wades into the 6U at State topic. But, after reading some of the comments I cannot resist.

First. its not about being fair. If you have been to the state tournament, you know there is not enough room. There is as much as 4 hours between matches, which makes it hard for a kid to keep their focus. Many older kids are limited to half mats - which does decide outcomes. Thats not fair - so where is the complaint. The first focus of the state body should be finding a way to get the kids in at least 12 and 14 and U on full mats. You want all the kids from 6U up to 16U in one building, I think we need a bigger building built. And, lets not forget districts, last year we got out sometime after 7pm. It was crowded. Adding 6u's will only make it worse.

Second, what is the complaint about fees. In our kids football league there is a weight limit on which players can carry the ball. In 3rd and 4th grade if you are over 85 lbs you cannot carry the ball, fair or not, you pay the same price to pay. Same here, you pay a price to participate.

A stand alone state tournament for 6U is fine. You have it. In fact, you have 2. The free market system at its best. Pick which one you like. If you want one sanctioned by the state bring it up, but putting them at state just won't work with the space available. If that happened you would see weight classes in the other classes eliminated or combined. Is that what you want.

And, finally, do not tell me 6U kids work as hard as the older kids. My son is now 12 and he works harder each year. I have been in the practice rooms for the last 5 years with him and most 6 year olds want to have fun. Which is what this is all about. It should be fun for the young kids. This is a time to learn the basics and get comfortable with the sport.

If you want 6 year olds at state and you can figure out how to do it without eliminating other weights, keep the time frame reasonable and not reduce mat size for the other kids AND not make it harder to get coaching passes, good. But it cannot be done at the EXPO Center.

I understand the excitement created when our kids compete, especially when they show some promise. I have a new grandson and my son claims he has already taught him how to bridge (he is less than 6 months old, I doubt it). I know I will want to take him to the wrestling room at 4 if his mom allows. But, I hope I don't go completely crazy.

TOPIC 1: 6 and Under State
Do I think the 6 year olds should be at state, with the rest? Yes. But, I will follow the rules that are set up by our Elected Board Members and what our voting clubs decide and not complain about it. If the majority voted to not have 6 and Under wrestling in Topeka, then the only way your are going to get it changed is to have your club vote it in. Until then, no 6 and Under at state.

TOPIC 2: Cutting Weight
No child should be cutting weight, period. It is not healthy for the child and will hurt him in the long run. I see alot of kids running before and during weigh-ins. What are they accomplishing? Cutting weight makes the body weak and it will not be able to regenerate energy for the next match/matches as quickly as it would if it was at the weight the wrestler should be at. Please, parents look out for your wrestlers health, and not just the medals he could win at the lower weight. My son has a wall full of medals, but you know what he doesn't even remember which medals he won as a 6 year old or even as an 8 year old. He doesn't even remember winning 3rd place at Ottawa at 5 years old or 2nd at 6 years old. So ask yourself, which is more important you wrestler's health or the medals?

GOOD LUCK TO ALL THE 6U WRESTLERS GOING TO THE "6 AND UNDER STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS" IN OTTAWA ON MARCH 16, AND ALL OF THE 6U WRESTSLERS GOING TO THE "6 AND UNDER-TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS" IN TOPEKA ON MARCH 21.

Wow!!!!!! O.K. 6u at state yes...now be real how many 8u weigh 37,40,43,46, not many that means 4 weigh divisions are 6yrs old...The reason I know this is that my son Will went to state as a 6yr. old at 46lb. Beeson, Schroeder and Bockman all have great points we pay money the kids wrestle hard!!! As for false hopes for the following year to make state that's part of wrestling... Will has made it 3yrs. in a row BUT has a hard road ahead this year to make it.....Does he want to go yes!!! Will he quit if he does'nt NOOO!! He truly loves this sport...So in closing whether you are a parent or a coach 6u should be at the big dance and your kid either LOVES or HATES the sport after 6 LONG MONTHS>>> MINE LOVE IT!!!!!!

why is it when we are talking about wrestling everyone wants to talk about another sport. wrestling is like no other sport. if you want to toot your horn make sure your talking about wrestling and wrestling only. nobody was saying anything about taking out weights in the entire discussion. the time frame well maybe there needs to be a limit on how many kids actually make it to the big dance. I have been out of the wrestling scene since I was in college so no I dont have all the answers. All I know is when my 6 year old asks why he has to wrestle against 8 year old kids so he can try to make it to state in Topeka so his cousins can watch him wrestle I have to tell him cause there is no 6 and under division. maybe your right. the faciility might need to be bigger. like somebody else said earlier you only know what your talking about if you have one of those 6 year olds who wants to go but is almost impossible for him to make it at the 8 and under level.

Can anyone tell me the difference between the two 6-under "STATE"tournaments? Is the competition better at one place or the other? My son is 15-5 this year , should I take him if he wants to go? I personally have never been to any kids state tournaments so I can truly admit I need some advice from wrestling parents and coachs. Last year I took him to Derby for the NOVICE championships and he went 2 and out. I quickly found out he wasnt ready. I just dont want to make that mistake again. He has really improved, like most kids do, and as much as I think he would do well, you just never know with a 6 yr old...Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

if i was to guess you will probably see the same kids at both of the tournaments. last year I went to Ottawa. My son had fun. We were in kc for saint paddy day anyways and made the trip. It was very crowded but overall it was a good tournament. If they make the changes for this year it should be a great tournament. Havent decided on the Topeka tournament yet. But if there is not a 6 and under included in the regular state we might as well go to topeka as well so our family there can watch my son wrestle. dont think you can go wrong with either one.

For 6U the season needs to be shortened. Lets say USAWKS voted to have a stand alone 6U State just like the 8u-16u but just 6U. Sanctioned and called USAWKS 6U Sate Champtionships. It would be on the Sunday after the High school state championships in Salina. The mats would be down, there would be plenty of room and plenty of hotel rooms. Which by the way is one other huge reason we cannot add it to the existing format, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH HOTEL ROOMS IN TOPEKA for the present size of the tournament. This tournament would officially end the 6U Folkstyle season so that those who want to go on in 8U can. The season, as it stands, is far too long for the vast majority of six year olds. The length of the season, driving to practices, never having any down weekends all lead to the fact that we have a drop off from 6U to 14U. Also, six year olds need their parents and coaches undivided attention which they would not get if we just through them in with the rest at the event we have now. Another problem with the existing event is that the mat sizes for the younger wrestlers is too small!! If we add another age group this problem gets worse. I know it has been suggested that we put a couple of the full size mats for 16U in the exhibition hall and I love that idea but it always meets lots of opposition.

What does everyone think of these ideas!

Bravo...I really like the idea of 6U season being over in February. Salina, centrally locacted and more than big enough to hold the tourney. I LIKE IT. I wouldn't be totally opposed to adding 8U to that tournament. That would free up some mat space for the rest.

i think the entire wrestling season needs to be shortened up. these kids should be done by the end of the highschool season. but that would not allow some of the clubs to host their own fundraising tournament. i think both sides can argue and anrgue but in reality the 6 year olds are getting left out for the wrong reasons. they do everything the older kids get except a chance to wrestle at state in their own age group. so the governing body needs to find out a way to make it all work. if 6 and under is all for fun and participation why pay fees or give any medals. i am not all about the competition but all for not doing the same for them as you do for the older kids. like i said i dont have all the answers but i think your headed into the right direction. i would like to meet with some of you that are on the same brain as i am in the future like beeson and schroeder just to name a few. now lets all sleep on it and we will wake up in the morning with brand new ideas and be back at it again on friday.