I'm not typically a complainer, but today something (however small it may seem to some) needs to be pointed out. Perhaps other tournament directors can take note.

We paid our money and drove the 2 hour trip to Linn County in hopes of getting some much needed mat time. Strangely enough we found only 1 other kid in my son's bracket (10u 79lbs). Apparently the other 2 kids who originally intered, scratched. The weight above us had two 5-man round robin brackets and the weight below had two 5-man round robins. The two kids at 79lbs could have easily been bumped up 3 pounds and made two 6-man rr or three 4-man rr before the brackets were posted. But hey, I understand if it was overlooked. So I went immediately to the Director, pointed out the problem and requested a change. Not unreasonable considering we paid our money just like all the rest. I even offered to move my son up an age group where there were 7 wrestlers in an 8-man bracket. Simply plug us in to one of the bye slots in any of those other brackets, take 5 minutes to write a few new bout cards and it's done.

To my surprise, the Director was totally unwilling to work with us in any way. He claimed it would cause the whole tournament to start hours late and run into the evening! They were using "TrackWrestling" this year and a simple change like that just couldn't be done. We were out of luck. He wasn't making any changes, even though it should have never been bracketed that way in the first place.

We went out and wrestled our 1 opponent 2 times, learned what we could and left before noon (without waiting around for our meaningless silver medal). I don't know what to suggest except to jettison the whole "TrackWrestling" program if it is truly as inflexible as they claim. I couldn't imagine an easier problem to fix before a tournament even started, and if "TrackWrestling" can't accomodate it, then find a better system. One that keeps the kids and what we are there for in mind.

You are correct directers need to work to give these kids the best wrestling possible. Newton had the same situation multiple brackets with only 2 kids and a hand full with only 3 kids, all brackets were round robin, with multipule weight brackets. My feeling is this late in the season put the A&B together and the C&D together and lets wrestle. Especially if your going to wrestle at sub-distiricts where there is no A,B,C,D brackets, just hard nosed wrestling. People that have to travel hours to wrestle want the best for their kids, not buying a medal. Just my thoughts.

I just wanted to say Thank You for everyone that came to our tournament yesterday. I appologize for your sons bracket only having 2 kids in his weight class, but we had 75 scratches so it was not intentional. As for just taking 5 min. to write out new bout cards and rolling with it does not work with Trackwrestling. If I would have made that change we would have had to renumber the whole tournament, print new brackets, pull the old ones down off of the wall, put the new ones up wait for coaches to get all the new match numbers, print out the new bout cards, and then start wrestling. The Trackwrestling system has some bugs that we need to work out, and I don't know that we will use it again, as it seemed to make our tour. last about a 1 1/2hrs longer than usual, and we started 40 min. late, and those of you that know me, know how much pride I take in starting on time and getting out of there early. Thank You Aaron Rice

I wish other tournament directors would do the same.We all had this problem 1 or twice but 5 minutes times 50 can add up on time and as I said in the past if anybody wants to rebracket charge a $15 rebracket fee.

As a tournament director myself I will go ahead and vent some of my frustration. I absolutely hate when kids scratch out of a tournament. Now I understand kids get sick or injured and I personally do not want sick or injured kids wrestling and spreading their sickness or getting more injured. With the bulk of our season in the winter time we also have to deal with Kansas weather and travel hazards. And again I personally don't want anyone to risk their lives just to wrestle at a tournament when bad weather strikes. These examples are, in my opinion, okay excuses for scratches at a tournament, however, we are seeing a LOT of scratches the day of the tournament. 75 scratches at Linn Co's tournament is way too many. I am just guessing and for the sake of a round number if Linn Co. had 750 entries and had 75 scratches that is right at 10%. Our tournament had 970 between Open and Novice divisions and that 10% scratch rate would mean that 97 kids would have scratched from our tournament. I cannot tell you the exact number of scratches we did have at our tournament (I don't think it was 97 since we only started about 20 minutes late after making bracket changes) but there were several scratches which messes up the bracketing system that we have in place prior to the tournament starting. This may open a big can of worms that I may not intend to open here, but I have to say it. Parents and Clubs need to be more responsible with their entries into tournaments. i don't know about other people, but if I pay for an entry (and my son isn't sick, injured, or otherwise incapacitated for the tournament) I expect that I will be there with my son (on or below the weight class he is entered) and ready to wrestle. Maybe I am a tightwad but I expect some bang for my 15 bucks. It is with this philosophy that when I do have to make bracket changes and as I am starting to bracket the tournament that I try to get the most matches for the kids whenever possible. I feel really horrible when I have a HWT kid that has noone to wrestle simply because there was noone for him to wrestle his age. I try to work out in those situations the best option for the kid's involved to get them some mat time by either bumping them up an age class (with their coaches/parents permission) or refunding their money and calling them beforehand that they have noone to wrestle and to stay at home and enjoy their weekend off. And this example isn't just for the heavyweight divisions, it happens with the older/lighter kids as well. Kids not making weight for a tournament is not an excuse to scratch. That is irresponsibility not only by the kid, but also for the parents and the club involved. Maybe introducing a re-bracket fee for not making weight is a good idea. Make a little extra money for the tournament and the kid still gets to wrestle. The only thing I don't like about the idea is iif it is used wrong on the kids and parent's side of it. (example we will enter little Johnnie at 10U 70 lbs but if he is unable to cut the weight from 76 and only makes it to 71 then we can pay an extra entry fee and bump him up to 73) This is not a good situation at all, but hopefully that mentality isn't the norm.


That is just my two cents on this issue. sorry for rambling on.

Also, rebracketting for different kids in an A, B or C bracket is something that I would definetly not go for especially in a Novice tournament. the main reason for novice tournaments to split brackets up is to get some good quality mat time for all of the kids involved. I would rather see two 5 man and 6 man round robins in a novice tournament than one 16 man bracket with 10 or 12 kids in it. 2 matches for some kids in the bracket and they are done learning. four and five matches in a day and the kid gets to learn more.

okay enough rambling.

As far trackwrestling not being able to do it is wrong. You can already have your bouts numbered and still rebracket a bracket and not have to renumber the whole mat.

Just a thought.

NO EXCEPTION THE NIGHT BEFORE only weigh-ins will solve hundreds of scratches, no shows, weight changes, AGE CHANGES(Unbelievable) huge problem parents signing kids up in the wrong age group. The people traveling will have to get a hotel and maybe leave a day early, or do not go to that tournament. But if bad weather comes over night the no shows will increase. Kids dodging other kids once they see who is in their weight - or the parents changing the kids to get easier competition and sometimes better competition. It is not just one kid and your kid that needs to be changed at the last second. Every tournament(novice & open) I hear from at least a few parents "I accidentally signed my kid up in the wrong weight." This happens at subdistrict also and it is a fact that some change just for an easier path to state. The morning of the tournament weigh-ins is not friendly to Trackwrestling or any tournament format. I think a MANDATORY night before weigh-in & check in ONLY that end at 8:00pm - NOT 8:03pm or 8:30pm or 9:02pm. Brackets will be posted the next morning at 7 or 8 am. Do not provide a list of the names of participants early. Tournament directors could post the number of kids in each bracket. Sing the National Anthem at 8:45am Start wrestling the next morning at 9:00am sharp. Unless there is bad weather and you'll get local no shows. Then for example 3 no shows in a 5 man round robin just became a 2 man RR best 2 out of 3. Sorry, I can't control the weather. Optional weigh-in site, 1 or 2 different locations maybe - besides the sight of the tournament. I do not understand why people can not read the flier that says NO BRACKET CHANGES - DEADLINE IS this DATE at THIS TIME. I would suggest READ THE TOURNAMENT HANDOUT.


MOVING JUST 1 KID WHAT IT REALLY MEANS – It is more than 5 minutes per kid
On average from what I can tell - there is at a minimum of 60 to 80 changes per tournament with about 400 kids signed up. Note: each change affects 8 other items in brackets and bout sheets.

Moving a 12 & under 76 (wrong signup by someone) out of a bracket to and 8 & under 76 bracket so those kids can at least wrestle a kid or kids their own age requires the changing of eight brackets - 2 head table brackets, 2 scorers table brackets, 2 wall brackets, and 2 sets of bout cards. - That is moving just 1 kid. It is very important for parents and club sign up people to get the kids in the correct spot. DO NOT COMPLAIN IF YOU HAVE EVER EVER SIGNED YOUR KID UP WRONG.

If one club who sent in 8 entries and had one wrong entry that is 12.5% of the entries sent in wrong. 12.5% of 500 entries is 62 total wrong entries. If all of these kids are in one of the different 120 brackets then over half of the brackets would have to be changed on the wall, at each table packet, the head table, and the bout sheets. This all has to happen before the tournament can start.

I guess I just must be naive - I couldn't imagine trying to get my kid changed just because I don't like who he has to wrestle. The only complaint I had about Linn County was that it said plainly on the flyer that weigh ins would be over at 7:30. I managed to drive 2 hours to be there by 6:30. There were still people weighing in at 8:00. We live out in the middle of nowhere so I don't want to have to get a hotel room to do Friday night weigh ins every weekend. A remote weigh in would work. I'm with you though, Smokey, no changes. You get who you get - that's the way the real world works.

I think part of some of the problems on all the scratch's is alot of tournament directors have their cut off dates a week and sometimes two weeks before there event. I have my cutoff the Weddnesday before the tournament. That gives coaches Monday and Tuesday night to have practices and find out who for sure is going that week. You will always have a few that get sick right before the weekend but I do my brackets on Thursday night and tell people that. So if there is a change ask them to call you but I see no reason to have these cut off dates so early.

That is understandable JDK, but how many kids are you bracketing on Thursday night and how many people do you have helping do the bracketing? Our tournament this year had over 1100 kids and that is just not possible to get done on Thursday nights. I do agree that there should not be any changes, unless it is the mistake of the people running the tournament. The bad thing is, though, too many people feel sorry for the people that don't get where they should be. I feel that if a person messes up, it is not the tournaments fault and you are going to wrestle where you signed up.

Normally I list my cutoff date 4-6 days before the tournament. This year our cutoff date was the day after Christmas with the tournament on the 29th. That was 3 days before the tournament. (not a lot of time to get all 975+ entries bracketed and ready, but luckily I have that week off as do a lot of volunteers within the club). This is the main reason we have our tournament during the holidays like we do. This year Christmas fell on a Tuesday and next year is looking dreadful with Christmas on a Thursday. My point is that it takes a lot of work to get ready for a tournament thus the reason for having the cutoff date so far in advance of the tournament. Maybe we should go to more of a Freestyle/Greco type tournament where there is no pre-registration and you just show up, weigh-in, get bracketed by random draw, then start wrestling. The only problem with that system is that it may take a longer time to get the brackets made up depending upon the number of wrestlers that show up.

I am just glad I am not the only one that feels this way about scratches at tournaments.

I would think with what appears to be a fairly robust tournament management package like Track Wrestling, it would indeed have such ability.

Heck, it even has the capability of interested parties signing up for (apparently a somewhat small fee) automatic text messages and/or email messages updating said party on the status/outcome of whatever matches/brackets/etc... they want. Very helpful if one is interested in the happenings at a tourney but cannot attend.

The Central folks (Biddle) really seem to have a good handle on the product and I for one am looking forward to seeing how it goes for them.

As an aside, I have no idea what all goes on at the annual state meetings, but TrackWrestling and the how/what/why/who/when/etc... should absolutely be on the list of things to cover.

To this outside observer, it just seems impossible the problems some tournaments have when utilizing TW. It can't possibly be THE problem. Just an opinion, I could be wrong.

This is another problem we all have created which only gets worse each year. That being the moving back the cutoff date for entries to a tournament. It used to be the cutoff dates were at least 7 days in advance of the tournament and even at that if you didn't get your entries into the host club a week prior to the deadline you risked the chance of getting shut out. We all have pushed the limit on sending our entries in late and the decreased number of kids wrestling has caused tournaments to accept these tardy entries. I don't have a solution to this problem but it results in our tournaments not running as smoothly as they could.

This is my fourth year in kids wrestling. My sons & I have been to many tournments. We may miss about two weekends a season. There were many tournaments that started late before trackwrestling was used. There were mistakes on brackets. There were a few seedings that did not always seem right. There were tournaments that ran late. None of the above problems are because of trackwrestling. My point is I think most people think that these problems are because of the use of the trackwrestling system. There not. I understand some of the problems tournament directors face because I help my wife run the Rossville tournment. My boys love this sport,& so do my wife & I. I would like to thank all the hard working people that run these tournaments. This Includes the ones that have not gone perfect. Trackwrestling or any thing else is not going to clear up the above problems but in the end it will decrease them.

I appreciate the conversation that my original post has provoked. I am still interested to know, however, if the Trackwrestling system can accomodate simple changes in a bracket like the one I brought up. Is it capable of handling a bracket change without having to renumber the whole tournament or even the whole mat? Will tournament directors in the future be able to correct mistakes without delaying or disrupting all the other weights and brackets? That's the real question here. I'm talking about little problems that could easily be fixed under the old-fashioned system. Is it just a matter of learning more thoroughly how to use the program or does the program need to be improved or what?

I have run the system & If I had to change something like your asking about I would rebracket the whole age group. This would take less than 15 min total. In defense of the people running the tournament they probably were not comfortable pulling brackets down & rebracketing (understandably). When everybody gets more familiar with the system requests like yours can be done. I would guess that it was the rebracketing that caused them to make the decision. With all your dealing with the morning of a tournament they probably had enough on thier plate. Occaionally when you go to a tournament you may get a jacked up bracket its happend to my boys a few times. We had one woman in rossville tournament that wanted the bracket changed & I thought she had a point but I did not do it because the brackets were on the walls & I did not feel comfortable doing it. I may try it next year if theres a problem , because I am more confident running the system.

Todd I emailed the trackwrestling boys & their is a way to change just a few things. I did not know this. They sent me the procedure & looks fairly easy. After thought I realized I could not have rebracketed one age group. Here is the response---- Determine the mat effected by the change & write it down. Kids name & weight that is being moved, change his division and weight needed. You will be promped with questions on how to handle situation. Re-print the bout sheets and bracket if weight classes effected. thats really it.------- Now that I know this I would not be afraid to change a couple of things. Again in defense of the Linn county people this system is quite intimadating the first time you run it. I do not think I could have done any better.