Egg:

Is there anyone on the board outside of the world of being EMPLOYED by a public school system? If so how do I get on one of these boards? Have you ever cut weight? Do you really believe what you just wrote? Surely you realize the more complicated you guys make this the more room there is for disparity in compliance. The variation in the hydration test is so outrageous that the notion of performing the test is really an absolute joke.

If a wrestler can't certify before Christmas then he shouldn't be trying to make that weight class! Doesn't that make sense?

If your BOE grants you time then it is in effect part of your job. Those who don't have to make money lose all perspective on what a job is. You have described it as being a position that is in conjunction with your job which causes you to give up normal duties to perform these. I am sure you don't pay for your own gas to attend these meeting or the other expenses associated with them. It will be difficult for me to feel gracious towards those who are part of the government glutony that we have let develop over the years. There is so much ineffiency in our education system. There is really NO need for this committee! It is a joke that we waste your time and our tax dollars talking about such things as "weight loss permits." Do you have any idea how EASY it is to get permission to lose as much as you can possibly stand to lose? I am quite confident that it is nearly impossible for your committee to have conventional wisdom on a topic that they have little or no real experience with. Two doctors and an athletic trainer all of whom have never cut weight or witnessed how high schools are REALLY handling all of the nonsensical weight loss rules that have been developed and implemented. Is there REALLY any attention being paid to weight loss? If there were then the easy answer is you must weigh before you step on the mat. If you are over you lose. If you are dehydrated or cut down to a point that is unsafe you will lose. If you can handle it and win then it isn't unsafe. The human body is pretty darn amazing. As I stated before, the more complicated you make it the more expensive it is to have this sport. I mean for God's sake we have to have a committee just to discuss wrestler's weight loss, weigh in, growth allowance, etc. Why don't we have a committee on staying competitive with other states? How about a committee on making wrestling as profitable as possible?

I do applaud paying the officials more. That was a good idea.

As with any system in which rules are self-enforced, is is only as good as the people involved.

The system what has been developed, thus far, is much less complicated than that which the National Federation is pushing and which has been adopted by many of the surrounding states.

What a concept, taking something so complicated, AND ABUSED, as the current weight rules, to the simplicity of matside weigh-in. For that reason alone, it can never happen.

Bach:

I have seen this idea voiced several times over the past couple of years and perhaps it should be given serious consideration. I do not see, however, that this would do away completely with the need for rules regarding weight loss. I know that those who champion this concept believe it would be a self-correcting method; that athletes would not lose too much weight for fear that they could not perform at their best. I understand this concept, though after 30+ years of working with and around adolescents I am skeptical that this would be the case.

Also, adopting this format would not necessarily do away with the need for regulations--it would in all likelihood just lessen the need for rules in one area and increase their need in another, different, area.

Are you aware of any state that currently is doing this method of weigh-ins?

Greg Mann
Norton

Why not let Kansas be the first?

I guess I am naive to think it would lessen the complication. What happened to the "land of the free" concept? Life is about choices and consequences. Why strangle everything for the sake of control a very few who walk outside of the lines? Adolescents abuse their bodies in many ways that we will never be able to control. Instead of focusing on rules to control why don't we invest our time in ways to improve? If we do need to control something it should be something that is a problem a MAJORITY of the time. I have to believe the number of adolescents who would damage their bodies because of poor weight loss tactics would have to be less than 1%!

Just curious, does anyone care to voice what they feel is the number one problem with High School wrestling in Kansas today? I am quite positive it isn't weight cheating.

"I have to believe the number of adolescents who would damage their bodies because of poor weight loss tactics would have to be less than 1%!"

I too think the number is quite small. I think it is greater than 1% but definitely NOT a large percentage. Probably would have to come to agreement as to what does and does not constitute "poor weight loss tactics;" which would be an interesting discussion!

Rules are necessary so as to allow for consistency. Also, rules are often the result of those few who seek a competitive advantage by not following the rules already in place.

My point of asking if any other state uses mat-side wiegh in is to find out what kinds of issues are inherent with the system.

It has been my experience that "easy" answers seldom are.

Will, the big problem at least for me, is in smaller inner city schools,kids just dont want to put forth the effort, and when the school is small, and we have 14 weight classes, its very tough to fill them all. For whatever reason, whether it be lazy, whether its the parents not wanting to bring kids and pick up kids for practice, or kids not even being able to stay eligible.In my opinion,..and Im sure this is not supported throughout the state, but going back to 12 weight classes would help alot. There are to many open weights I see at every tourney.Mat side weigh ins would get my vote, I like that.Losing to much weight just is not something we have had to worry about, its trying to get them to lose ANY weight.

We don't need to reduce weight classes if anything we need to add one between 215 and 285.

while I certainly don't know how many, or how much, I can't help but think some kids are damaging themselves, cutting weight. What is it worth? Sometimes we do need to be stopped from ourselves. I'm guessing that is why we have weight regulations. Since winning is always the goal, be it a championship, or just a varsity slot in the line-up, any edge will be considered.
We've all seen that match, where one kid is huge, and questioned the weigh-in. Or, watched with pity, as the team ate, but 1 or 2 didn't. If a matside weigh-in would stop these types of scenarios, why not. It would seem to be self-regulating: equalize the size edge with the ability to go 6 minutes (up to 5 different times a day). It puts the emphasis on wrestling ability, not the ability to recover/rehydrate quickly.

Matside Weigh-Ins
Tony DiGiovanni - OhioWrestling.Net
November 15, 2006
This commentary is in support of a simple matside weigh-in which would absolutely ensure the safety of all competitors. It has proven to be impossible for wrestling’s governing bodies to eliminate dehydration. It still occurs at every level, including the NCAA, even after installing hydration testing.

However, the National Federation Rules Committee can eliminate re-hydration by installing a matside weigh-in. This procedure would render dehydration useless because you cannot wrestle dehydrated unless you have time to re-hydrate.

In the mid 1990s, amateur wrestling sustained a blow that threatened its very existence. The tragic fatalities of three college wrestlers shook the wrestling community and focused all eyes on the sport of wrestling rather than the circumstances that caused the unfortunate events. Wrestling, the world’s oldest sport, had never sustained a weight related death before these incidents. What went wrong?

It was extreme dehydration, linked with creatine use, combined with 24 hour weigh-ins, and only one weigh-in per weekend that allowed such a harmful abuse to occur.

The new hydration and body composition procedures are an administrative and logistical nightmare. It is costly, time consuming and rife with corruption and deceit at every level. At the core of this situation is the traditional belief among the wrestling community that it is not cheating as long as you make weight.

The only truly safe, fair and immediately effective system is to instate matside weigh-ins. The key to its effectiveness is not only its simplicity, but its ability to eliminate all the “methods” used currently in the college programs at the start of the season to fool the test/testers in order to drop another weight class. More importantly, matside weigh-ins will also eliminate the weekly bouncing of extreme weight that still occurs within the current NCAA system.

With a matside weigh-in, athletes will police themselves. Even small amounts of dehydration or weight control abuse will dramatically reduce their ability to perform. This is the ultimate correction for our sport. Wrestlers would consistently develop and maintain more healthy dietary habits throughout the season as well as throughout the year.

The one hour weigh-in rule has proven to be an effective method to protect kids but we know that a significant amount of re-hydration can occur in that one or more hours before their individual match. matside weigh-ins would eliminate all re-hydration and thereby eliminate any significant dehydration.

Problem solved. No need for a costly mandate requiring state officials to spend inordinate amounts of their time managing an unpopular program that rewards cheating, deceitfulness and the knowledge and ability to beat the system.

If you question the truthfulness of this commentary, talk to 10 NCAA wrestlers and I can promise you at least 10 different ways to beat the system. In addition, almost all of them will tell you that the test is beaten by any wrestler who wants to beat it.

The key to matside weigh-in is that the wrestler himself will not want to cut weight incorrectly. We all know that you cannot wrestle a match when you are dehydrated.

Please do not subject our nation’s high schools to this “knee jerk reaction” proposal. I would hate to see high school athletic and education department administrators use this additional program’s cost and associated administrative difficulties as a reason to eliminate our sport from small, rural, large, or inner-city high schools whose budgets are already stretched to the limit.

Let’s get the fans and parents more involved. Take the secrecy out of weigh-ins. The media, fans and family will no longer sit in the stands and swear that “that boy can’t weigh 103 lbs.!” They will see it with their own eyes.

Matside Weigh-in (MW) vs. Hydration Testing (HT)

MW - Truly safe, no time to re-hydrate, eliminates dehydration, dramatically reduces weight bouncing.
HT - Somewhat safe, allows re-hydration time, allows weekly weight bouncing.

MW - Zero cheating.
HT - Uncontrolled Cheating.

MW - Easy “total” enforcement.
HT - Impossible to uniformly and fairly enforce.

MW - Fair to all participants.
HT - Unfair because every trainer, doctor, coach, and site are different.

MW - No paperwork.
HT - Unmanageable paperwork.

MW - Fan, media, and family involvement.
HT - Public relations nightmare.

MW - Cost effective, no cost.
HT - Costly.

MW - Promotes healthy dietary lifestyle.
HT - Promotes some re-hydration, 1-3 hours.

MW - Understandable and exciting addition.
HT-Complicated and discourages involvement.

It is my sincere conviction that the one hour weigh-in has demonstrated its ability to protect our high school athletes.

However, it is evident that some wrestling executives felt a compelling legal responsibility to do more, and it is clear their current dog and pony show is not designed to protect athletes from rampant, continued dehydration/ re-hydration.

Its purpose is to generate income at the expense of financially depleted high school programs and eliminate any potential legal responsibilities.

IF MORE MUST BE DONE, and I’m not sure that is the case, then let’s do the only right thing: For the SAFETY of the kids…For the SANITY of the coaches… and For the SECURITY of wrestling in the future.

MATSIDE WEIGH-INS: AN OLD IDEA WHO’S TIME HAS COME!

If you support matside weigh-ins, please voice your opinion to your state wrestling coaches association, state high school athletic association, as well as posting your thoughts on wrestling forums and websites. We must take action and do what is best for high school wrestling, before it is too late.

The concept is good, but has it actually been used anywhere, over time, for more than exhibition purposes?

Does it matter? Someone has to be first! I have researched to find the answer to your question and I believe it has not. It is a huge paradigm shift and won't be welcomed with open arms. Most people do NOT embrace change.

Wrestlingalum hit it on the head. We need more kids wrestling! That equals less kids on the street from three to six every day. The sport isn't dying, it is being murdered! Overregulation creates frustration and we lose athletes who might have been interested. Every time you create a rule you take away freedom.

Egg, you didn't answer several of my questions. Why do you sit on such a committee? Do you see yourself as an advocate for wrestling? Is there anyone on the board outside of the world of being EMPLOYED by a public school system? If so how do I get on one of these boards? Have you ever cut weight? Do you really believe what you just wrote (that kids need time after the break to certify)?

I talk to lots of the HS coaches around the state. They are shocked that the committee believes the athletes need more time. This was not a rule embraced by the KWCA. They believe the KWCA is basically powerless. If they have 99% support for a change they still feel there is NO WAY to get a rule change put in place. How does your committee come up with it's ideas? Are there wrestlers on your committee?

Yes, it does matter if a person is interested in knowing more about how it works and challenges that have to be overcome.

Yes, I have cut weight; have YOU?

The KSHSAA is composed of member SCHOOLS to oversee SCHOOL activities; therefore, shouldn't the committees of the KSHSAA be composed of representatives of the member schools?

Yes, I see myself as an advocate for Kansas High School Wrestling. That you do not agree with what I believe makes me no less an advocate.

Your figure of 99% of coaches not being in favor of current certification date may be true, but it is anecdotal. To my knowledge there has been no formal vote by the KWCA on the date of certification. If this is not true, let me know as I am sure you will. Further, I do NOT find it surprising that coaches do not like some of the rules they must follow; what I find surprising is that you find it surprising.

Yes we need more kids involved in ALL of our activities. The "slacker," X-box, skateboarder mentality is becoming more and more prevalent among our youth.

Even our founding fathers believed in rules--witness the constitution--they were not anarchists.

You know something Will? I have tried, really tried to be understanding about these subjects and your zeal and passion for them. I can't honestly say I agree with you (which in your mind is the same as a personal attack) about most of them, but I have tried to understand, and support you right to express them.

But in light of recent events, both in Kansas and here in Iowa, your comments have become tiresome and annoying and truly show misguided priorities and total lack of perspective.

Two weeks ago, Chapman was more or less destroyed by a tornado. Manhattan was heavily damaged. Three weeks ago, Parkersburg, Iowa was leveled by tornadoes. Over the last two weeks, much of the eastern half of Iowa was destroyed by flooding.

As I write this, I am just coming back from helping remove some of the 100,000 contaminated sandbags that tried to protect our town of Vinton from flooding on the Cedar River that passed the all time record by over five feet. We lost our fire station, electrical plant, county law enforcement building and over 100 homes. The road going north out of town is heavily damaged and a 150-yard section of it is totally washed out. It will be years before it is repaired. Our town is on temporary generators because our power plant was wiped out.

Our head wrestling coach (a former assistant of mine) has had to resign. He's a farmer, and between our four feet of snow from winter and flood, he's already lost over 100 acres planted corn and has yet to be able to get his soybeans in. This farm has been in his family for four generations; his choice was between it and wrestling. The farm, as it should have, won. I may be coming back to the mat a year earlier than I thought I was (at least our superintendent is trying to draft me!).

Waterloo and Cedar Falls were hard hit by the flood. Downtown Waterloo flooding destroyed the new International Wrestling Museum. Some of the most valuable artifacts of our sport, including the entire Dan Gable collection, were destroyed. You know what Coach Gable said? "The museum is not important. Thousands have lost their homes."

Cedar Rapids, the second biggest city in Iowa, has lost 400 blocks of businesses and homes. The arena that held the Division II and III national championships was heavily damaged. Much of downtown is so damaged that it will have to be torn down. Nearly 30,000 people were evacuated and most of them lost everything they owned and will never move back into their homes.

Iowa City was damaged as well. Around 20 buildings at the University of Iowa were badly damaged; but don't worry, the important stuff like the arena and the wrestling room are safe. Whew!

Last Saturday, I went with our high school softball team to a tournament. On the way, we drove through Parkersburg, which like Chapman, lost its schools as well as half the houses in town. At least in football, Aplington-Parkersburg High School is like Smith Center; four current NFL players went to school there. Even after everything that had happened in Vinton and Cedar Rapids, driving through there was still a humbling and sad experience and moved many of our players and fans (and coaches for that matter) to tears. I'm sure Chapman is no less that way.

Will, in light of everything I've seen in the last few weeks, it's pretty hard to take you, your demands and your childish, threatening and insulting manner very seriously.

No one, including you, loves the sport of wrestling more than I do. Are the kids I coached on the mat right now? Not lately; they've been busy helping with flood relief. At the end of the day, wrestling is important, but compared to what else has been going on in the world, it's pretty trivial. It's a sport, it's not life and death.

If you want to make a positive difference in the lives of kids and the state of Kansas, load up the boys, 10 cases of bottled water and some equipment into the Family Truckster and drive out to Chapman and help Jeff Sheets rebuild his wrestling room. Come up here and help families who have lost everything -- not just the right to live by any rules they like -- start over again. That will teach your kids a better life lesson than any wrestling clinic could.

And one other thing. I know exactly how you meant the word "retarded." Your use of it and your justification answer were childish, just like your attacks on Greg Mann are. And anyone, including my five-year old with autism, can figure that out.

And yeah, it's me. See you in 2009.

Jeff Holmes

Someone has to be first. If no one tries anything new then nothing will ever change. It is tough to be first but when Dr. Naismith hung the peach basket up he probably had no idea how many people he would touch in a positive way. I guarantee he was ridiculed and the rules had to be massaged and changed over time. When you are first you are on the cutting edge and sometimes that means you have to bleed. I WISH we could be first and that is why I said, "Does it mater?"

Of course I have cut weight. In 1980-81 I cut from 135 to 112. After the Christmas break we got 5 pounds so it was only 117. I had the routine down, 135 Monday morning, 117 on Friday night. We went to Colorado for a dual and they only got 3 so I had to make 115. I cut weight from 7th grade on. Today I am 6ft and weigh 190. I havn't had any health issues and I don't think my growth was stunted. I wouldn't mind matside weigh in to get rid of the politics but I honestly loved the discipline and willpower associated with making weight. First you beat the scale and then you beat your opponent.

No it doesn't make sense for KSHSAA to police itself. Are you familiar with the Sarbanes Oxley law? When an organization polices or audits itself it becomes stagnant and corrupt. How about some committee's comprised of taxpayers that make it possible for the KSHSAA to exist.

I just wanted to know if you were an advocate. I haven't seen any forward thinking policy posted or even suggested by you. I am all about continuous improvement which means progressive adjustments to improve. The way you measure improvement is by checking with your customers to see if they are more satisfied. That mechanism is missing when it comes to the KSHSAA. You are also a small school advocate which means that you have little understanding of big school issues and opportunities. You feel that if the small schools can't have it then the big ones shouldn't either. Would you advocate two sets of rules, one for small schools and one for big schools? For the record, I never said you weren't an advocate of wrestling, just never have seen a post that proves it so I had to ask.

I don't find it surprising. What shocks me is that you tell us to go through the channels. The KWCA, the AD's or other members to get change to take place. The process is cumbersome and not democratic. How does your committee get away with creating policy with little or no support for the organization it is governing? It doesn't make sense. If 100% of the coaches, who should be the most knowledgable about the situation, support something then you think it is okay to say no? If the coaches support it then the parents support it. Are you telling us that you know better than the majority of the customers you are serving? It is crazy that we have gotten this point where we are told by a body that we pay for that we don't know what is good for us????

The constitution is a guideline for rules. Open for interpretation but founded on freedom of choice. KSHSAA is functionally a dictatorship. What Gary wants, Gary gets. What Gary doesn't want doesn't happen. When you create a list of hurdles to jump, followed by a maze to navigate just to get a proposal to the Executive board it is a long way from being a democracy.

This really isn't about supporting wrestling or not. It is about whether you are an advocate for improvement and customer satisfaction. You are a wrestling advocate but are you a change agent?

Jeff,

We have dealt with heart wrenching tragedies across our nation. The Oklahoma City bombing, 911 and Hurricane Katrina to name a few. In the aftermath of all of these events, we are reminded how fragile life is and how much we love our families, friends and our neighbors. In all of these recovery efforts we long for the God given blessings that we have never deserved, yet continue to be blessed with.

For you to use these tragedies as a stick to hit someone with in order to address some harboring grudge you are clinging to, shows a complete lack of character. How could you ever accuse someone of not caring about personal tragedy when you have never walked in their shoes? Will and many others on this forum as well as Iowa's forum have continued to voice their passion regarding this great sport. In no way does that elevate issues that effect the sport of wrestling over life and death issues!

May God bless those whose lives have been changed by these tragedies!

Jeff,

I don't need a lesson in perspective. I have read all of the stories and I have viewed all of the damage. To say I don't support those who need help without really knowing me is a personal attack.

I can't stop the flooding or reroute the storms. We all have personal challenges and tragedy that we have to deal with. I am truly sorry for the suffering I have witnessed this year and during every year of my life. When I was in grade school I watched the news every night after my music teacher's son was killed in Viet Nam. I couldn't understand why it happened and my parents could not explain to me why some people have to die so young. Every year since then somewhere in the world something tragic has happened. You learn to accept it and do what you can do. I will help those out that I can. Life doesn't stop and the world keeps on turning. Just because I champion a cause on here doesn't mean that I am a shallow person with no compassion for those who are in a bad place in their lives right now. I have confidence that those effected will fight and work hard to get back to where they were before. Rules will be changed and laws will be broken to get them there because we cannot predict everything that is going to happen. God first, family second and the rest will fall into place.

I am thankful that you took time out to help those in need but I wish you would have spent five more minutes helping them instead of trying to justify making me look like a bad person for disagreeing with a government policy and a government employee. I will continue trying to make a difference my way and you continue trying to make one yours. The most beautiful thing about our world is that we are all different. The most beautiful thing about our country is that we are all allowed to be different and voice our differences. It is legal and it is embraced by our fellow countrymen. Accept me and respect me as I do you.

I will continue to pray for those who have encountered less fortunate circumstances. I am confident that God will help them in ways I cannot.

The committee membership consists of: Currently active coaches, school principals, A.D.s, school superintendents, two doctors with strong backgrounds in wrestling, and an athletic trainer. Also sitting in on several meetings were the Nebraska (now with the National Federation) and Iowa wrestling equivalents to Rick Bowden. I am not 100% sure what "Gary wanted" from this committee, but I am pretty sure he wanted us to adopt the National Federation plan--he did not get that.

The KSHSAA does not "govern" the KWCA; the KWCA is not a part of the KSHSAA. It and the other Kansas coaching associations are advisory to the KSHSAA.

The KSHSAA governs its member SCHOOLS. Elected representatives, of those schools, (BOE members, Principals, Supt.s; and A.D.s) make up the different components of the KSHSAA. You seem to think that all who work in public schools think and act alike and do whatever someone in Topeka says to do; that is certainly no true. Further the Sarbanes Oxley law is not applicable in this situation as this is a dynamic organization (that is a regular infusion of new persons into the elected leadership roles).

Not sure what big school--small school has to do with your concerns. No doubt there are those in small schools who agree with some or all of your "suggestions" for "improvement" and there are some, no doubt, in the big schools who disagree with you. What is at issue has nothing to do with size of school, it is about perspective and balance. We have had that discussion before and there is no need to revisit it.

My sole reason for the first post of this thread was simply to inform coaches and athletes of upcoming rule changes; in the past some have voiced concern that these kinds of changes have not been communicated in a timely manner. These are changes to existing rules, so, as such are not ground breaking. However, they ARE significant as they relate to the current rules.

I will not visit the forum for the rest of the summer; will see you all in the fall.

Greg Mann, Norton

Will
We all know "systems issues" are hard to overcome. I applaud your energy and passion to stand up for what you believe in and the changes you feel need to be made. It is appreciated. I just
hope you are also taking the time to truly enjoy the fine wrestling career of your talented son. Thanks again.