I have been involved in this sport a long time. I started coaching in 1986 and have been active in coaching all but 6 of those years. Every year we talk about adding 6U to the Kansas State Tournament and every year it gets tabled or forgotten about. It is time to add them starting next year.

This group of wrestlers is just as important to the State of Kansas Kids Wrestling as the other groups. This is the foundation of years to come. It is time to reward them for working hard and staying dedicated to the sport. Many of these wrestlers are 2 and 3 year wrestlers anyway.

Over the past several years the lower end of 8U is wrestled by several 6U and they seem to be doing an outstanding job at competing at (big) state. This will add a few more hours to the State tournament (but that is why we are there).

If the 6U can compete in 1 day a 64 man bracket then they are more than ready to wrestle a 2 day tournament for the chance to be with everyone else.

Thanks

As a dad/coach with two kids currently in 6 and under, I fully agree! It is time to add 6 and under to the main state tournament. We loose many of these kids before they get a chance to see how great State is. Lets add them in as soon as possible!

Well if you can get District 1 behind it and push for it then I think you might have a chance. If you dont get District 1 behind you then it will be voted down again.

A couple of years ago a suggestion was made to drop the 16 & U class at Kids state in order to add the 6 & U. At the time I thought that was a pretty bad idea. This year however after seeing the pretty anemic attendance signup rate from eligible 16&Us I am convinced that I would much rather have the 6&Us competing at Kids state than the older group.

I completly disagree for a couple of reasons

6 under have thier very own state tournement its an entire day all about them, no one else. no falling thru the cracks or living in the shadows of the bigger kids they are in the spot light.

Its gear toward them, no qualifing which means no one left out. they get the honor of being a part of this huge thing with no fear of being left out! Which at this age is very important to stimulate and nurture thier love for the sport. They have the rest of thier lives to almost make it to state or lose the championship match at state by 1 point. This should absolutly only be for fun.

I always told my wife I don't care if our son wins state or not. Until he knows what an honor and accomplishment it is to win and at this age we've only told them what it means to win state. they don't know yet what it really means to sacrfice so many things for it.

Remember 85% of the kids that qualify for state get nothing.

And dam we just don't have room the 8 and unders already wrestle mat barely big enough for them and probly not big enough at all but they make due

I posted this back on: April, 04 2003 04:53 AM

I guess I am just old fashion.


Re: 6 & Under State Championship

smokeycabin
Member

Registered: July, 07 2001
Posts: 898
Loc: Shawnee Kansas 6 & UNDER STATE IS TO YOUNG PERIOD. I know I am not speaking for everyone. I have coached youth wrestling for over twenty years. I have coached 5 year olds and I have coached college all-Americans’. I also vote at the state body meeting and I will never vote for 6 & under state. We do not need to put false expectations into these young children’s minds. A 6 & under state champ may not make it back to state for another 4 years or ever. This creates false expectations in the child and in the parents who think their kid is the toughest roughest rumbler this side of the Mississippi. My son was a pretty decent wrestler at six and under and won the majority of his matches in the two tournaments I let him pick to enter. When he graduated to 8 & under and he was all of 7 years old he was getting it handed to him pretty hard by some eight year olds. When he was eight he dealt some of the 7 year olds a whipping. I think as a whole that is the natural progression the majority of kids make. I as a coach do not want to burn out the young participants when he or she is in eighth grade. I have seen it all too often that a parent is trying to create a national/Olympic champion. Your child is not you and never will be you. So let’s stop all this nonsense for a 6 & under world champ. I have seen parents run their kids out of baseball, football, track, tennis, golf, etc. Do not live your life through your child’s eyes. I have seen parent’s way out of hand watching the six and under group and our sport doesn't need that kind of pressure put on these young people. The boys and girls will grow up at their own pace - not in your or my time frame. THE END!

I did post this on: April, 04 2003 04:53 AM

I still feel the same way 6 years later!

Sean McCarthy

This post was 4 years ago

Re: 6 and under
smokeycabin
Member

Registered: July, 07 2001
Posts: 899
Loc: Shawnee Kansas As a parent and a coach. I say no to the 6 and under state tournament. A two month season and 20 matches is plenty for that age division. I personally would like to see these kids wrestle in high school and not raise their expectations at such an early age. I see enough tears from this age group daily at practice, regular tournaments, and their attention span is very short to begin with. That is just my two cents worth. I was against it 12 years ago and I am still against a 6 and under state tournament this year. This topic gets voted on every other year by the club representatives at the state meeting. I guess you know my vote.

Coach Sean

smokeycabin
Member

Registered: July, 07 2001
Posts: 900
Loc: Shawnee Kansas Where does it stop? 4 & Under? Then someone will want individual age divisions. Should High School have a JV State? We already have 4 different high school divisions. Where does it stop?

Coach Sean

I agree no 6U at state or wrestling up to 8U at state. If I thought they were being left out that would be different but they are not. The 6U state in Ottawa is a good tourney and a big deal. This is as good as it gets in my opinion. They can also do the Novice state Tourney as well in Wichita if this applies to them, so there is plenty of opportunities for this group.

As far as the low turnout for 16U, I guess a study should be done to see if that is still viable or maybe someone can have a 16U state tournament of their own somewhere like the 6U.

I would be ok with the 6under stand alone state if they didnt have to wrestle 10 times in one day. They dont get seeded very well. I know they try the best they can but if your going to do it then lets go all the way and do it right. I was there last year. It was much better than it was the year before. The one thing I didnt like was all the best kids were on one side of the bracket. Most of those kids were from the Wichita area in the brackets I was talking about. Thats the one thing I would like to see changed. As for the 16 under tournament you can say the same thing as you keep mentioning about the 6under. the highschool has their own stand alone tournament in the highschool. That is no different than the 6under except for its a highschool sponsored event. 6 and unders dont get the respect they probably deserve. some say its a learning stage. i cant say that it isnt. so i am ok with the stand alone if its ran just like the rest of the tournaments as far as seeding for the top wrestlers.

Lets get a few things cleared up: Most kids do not ever become a state champ or even a state placer! Most coaches do not want to relive the glory days of when they wrestled. They want to teach wrestlers about dedication, focus, hard work and setting goals to reach greater heights. Parents see this in the practice room and appreciate the improvements in each child regardless of wins or losses!

I've been to the 6 and under state tournament the last two years. It is a nice tournament, but there are many issues. Seeding is one. Limited exposure. We had numerous coaches/wrestlers from central and western kansas not know about the tournament. Too many matches for one day if your child continues to win. High School kids can only wrestle 5 matches in one day! We want 6 and unders to wrestle back to back to back 7 to 10 times?

Currently 6 and under kids compete at the 8 and under state. It is a long shot for them to place when a 5 year old could be wrestling a 9 year old with a late birthday. We already have a second chance 6 and under tournament along side districts. In national tournaments like the Brute Nationals in KC kids wrestle their age. If you are 9 you wrestle other 9 year olds, not 10 year olds. At Tulsa Nationals they have 6 and under. Again, I'm not talking the best of the best, I'm fighting for the kid who makes it to districts and his family is ecstatic for his accomplishments. We need to keep the little kids coming back and giving them something to be excited about at the end of the year like subs, distirct and state. 6 and under is our lifeblood and it will keep this sport growing!

Why is this such a hard issue? Do the 6U (who have the most participants and parental support)have to wait their turn or their shot at competing when every other age group in the wrestling room has an opportunity to compete at this higer level?
I have always thought that burn out could be possible if started too young. It is already happening every year every age group. These 6U practice from the first of november until the season is over just like everyone else. I do have a problem with 6U State by itself. 64 or 32 man brackets in 1 day. No tournament should be like that. If 6U were allowed to compete at SUBS and Districts and then have 16 man brackets at State it then would be something special for them. Not something they have to wait for. If you want wrestling to keep growing in Kansas then we need to accept the 6U as an important age group and help them to grow. Maybe we will have more 16U wrestling in 8-10 years. This is not about wrestling through my kids it is about rewarding them for their hard work and love of the sport.

When do 6 & Under kids become open wrestlers and not novice anymore?

Another 2005 post below on 6 & under particpation numbers at the Ottawa - State Tournament.

If I counted right there were 92 six and under kids at Ottawa last year. That is 5.6% of 1,654 kids this year. There were 226 kids at 16 and under - state qualifiers last year. A few more were beat out at subdistricts. Also, I know many of the High Schoolers do not show up. If that number (92 and the participation rate 5.6%) of six and under is any indication of the parents not sending there kids to Ottawa for the State Championship - Those numbers might speak for the majority of parents feeling towards at state level tourny. I know there are a few six year olds that go to the 8 & under state and most of them go home disappointed. I still believe for the most part 6 and under state championship is to young for baseball, football, basketball, tennis, track, boxing, or whatever.

Coach Sean

It can be voted on at the State meeting in the fall.

I am not sure of the vote percentages on all the years that this (6 & Under state) was voted on but here are the numbers from 2002 or 2003. I did not create the statistic 70% NO to 30% YES vote for 6 & Under State Tournament in 2002 or 2003. When we all walk in to the state meeting we should all have a list of things that need to be voted on. The topics should be yes or no. This topic or any topic does not need to take 1 or 2 hours of discussion to decide our feelings on any vote. Remember it is not just parents who have six and under kids voting. It normally is coaches and parents who have already had kids that did wrestle six and under at another time. Many people pay more for their kids daycare when he or she was younger (2 years old) - when comparing it to the cost of a 4 year old. The 4 year olds in day care get more opportunities as they get older. It is a developmental process. I have said this before - We should not let a 13 year old drive just because they want to. They need to wait their turn until they get a little more experience.

Coach Sean

I agree that the coaches and board members should vote. I in the past was against 6U at State and I am now watching the interest level and the decline of the older wrestlers participating. Most of the parents that I have talked to about this have older wrestlers that have been there. I have been through all age groups of this. When I started coaching my oldest was 1 and my youngest wrestler is 5 there is 18 years difference between the 2 and I feel it is time to change our feelings towards the younger wrestlers. They do deserve the opportunity. Many parents do not take their 6U to Ottawa because of the type of tournament it is in 1 day. I have never taken mine because of that. That is when injuries can happen and it is too much to ask a 6U or anyone to wrestle 6-7 times in 1 day.

Thanks

Really? The life blood? 6 year olds? We're in trouble!



If they do not want to compete at Ottawa, the answer to your question is Yes. They have to wait. Just like my 11 year old has to wait to drive.

What is the rush? The athletes that you are talking about will have more opportunities to go to State then they have had birthdays so far! They will get there chance. I guarantee you most of the kids in this age group are not missing state & do not risk burn out if they do not get to go to state until they are 8/under. The desire for some of you parents to have your 6 year old compete at State at this very early age may however be a contributing factor to burn out. I strongly recommend to you that are pushing so hard for this to get your hands on a copy of the movie Reversal. That movie changed my entire outlook on the sport and hopefully I will be in the stands when my sons are in High School cheering them on.

I am involved in High School wrestling and kids wrestling, as are many of you reading this. I love the sport and my 4 year old son appears to love it too. He loves it because it is fun and he is allowed to compete at his own pace. I am excited for him to be able to enter into more novice tournaments as he gets older and learns more than just a double leg! There are numerous more novice tournaments now then there were when I was younger. For this I am greatful. It is amazing how things can change for the better. In regards to a 6&U state, I think the same can be true as well. While the 6&U state that we currently have in Ottawa is nice, why wouldn't we look at trying to make it more organized and orderly. And, more importantly, make it more fair for everyone, all over the state? The easiest and simplest way to do that is to add 6&U to the state tourney. Smoky, with all due respect, if kids are going to get burnt out it is not going to be because the state decides to add 6&U to the state tournament. I think it will further encourage them, becuase now they will know what to expect when it gets to the end of the season. It certainly won't be a crap shoot 64 man bracket that you hope gets seeded half-way correctly. 6&U at the state tourney is a good idea. I don't know exactly how it would look, but it needs to be seriously considered.

Problems In Youth Sports
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By: James White and Gerald Masterson, Ph.D.

Can participating in competitive sports at too young of an age have a negative effect on our children and their future in sports? Starting ages for youth in competitive sports have lowered dramatically in the past two decades. Andrew Ferguson (1999) estimated that 40 million children are involved in competitive sports. It's not just the numbers that are staggering, but the manner in which kids are playing. Children who get involved in organized competitive sports at a young age may find themselves tired of the game they once loved. Young athletes are becoming increasingly stressed because of the pressure they are getting from their parents and coaches. They are traveling further, playing more games, and spending less time just being kids (Ferguson).

Children in today's era find themselves with a variety of competitive sports to choose from at earlier ages. The Amateur Athletic Union (AAU) boys and girls basketball, baseball/softball, soccer, football, volleyball, start as young as nine, while Little League Baseball and softball can start as early as five with tee-ball. Pop Warner, which is the nation's oldest football organization, starts at five. The American Youth Soccer Organization (AYSO) has kids competing at the age of four. While winning may not be the focus of these leagues it can be the focus of the parents.

When considering sports participation one should take into account the developmental age as well as the chronological age of a child before competing. Paulo David, author of Human Rights in Youth Sport: A Critical Review of Children's Rights in Competitive Sports, found that children don't always understand the concept of competition until age of six or seven. Children under nine may be incapable of differentiating between the concept of effort and that of ability. This means that they believe winning is achieved by how hard they try and that losing means they did not trying hard enough (David).

Sports knowledge development in children at a young age is essential. In the Primary grades children should be taught the rules of games and the structure of the game. Training for these children should be informal and playful in nature (Slentz & Krogh). With little or no emphasis on wins or losses which can often leads to emotional distress and long term refusal to be involved in competitive sports. Sports should be designed to improve a child's self concept in the early years (Essa).

In the book Why Johnny Hates Sports?, the author Fred Engh states "that if kids are competitive at early ages, then they may not be trained in how to fail. If all the focus is on winning, kids may be scared to fail and make mistakes. Mistakes are part of the learning process and it's how one improves. Failures can result in success, if we are teaching kids to learn from mistakes. If kids are never allowed to fail and are yelled at, pulled out every time they do something wrong then we are training them to be afraid to shoot or try. They are not going to want the ball for fear of making a mistaken and being taking out or humiliated in front of their peers. Allowing children to try and fail diminishes their fear of their parents, coaches, peers, and of humiliation because they are encouraged to try (Engh).

Too much competition too early may cause burnout. The term "burnout" is a relatively new term with children in competitive sports. Burnout can be defined as "the athlete's natural response to chronic, ongoing stress." By age thirteen burnouts begin to manifest and children start quitting their given sports (Lawrence). Burnout in kids' sports can be caused by a "play at all costs" attitude by the parents and coaches, by overtraining and excessive travel.

The problem starts when the sport becomes more like a job than play. These coaches and parents believe that by playing all the time it will translate to winning and possible visibility and then scholarships. We believe that parents no doubt want what is best for their kids. But with this win and play at all costs there is mounting evidence parents are cheating to give their kids an edge. They even lie about their child's age to gain an advantage and get more exposure. Parents are looking to prepare their child for Division I athletic scholarships or a professional career.

To gain an advantage parents insist that their children practice and play year-round to insure they have the best skills necessary to compete and be a starter in high school and on their club teams. Training and traveling all year round takes its toll on children. One report, noted that forced participation in competitive youth sports by parents can constitute as a form of abuse by parents because they are taking the childhood from the child. They want their children to specialize.

A study done by America Sports Data Inc. found that, in youth organized sports, 69% of all parents want their children to play only one sport. If the child is between six and eight years old, 79% of those parents want their child to play only one sport. Of all the sports organization in 2004, 44% of the children stated they only wanted to play one sport (Maher). If the child and his or her parents want the child to participate in only one sport, than the coach is more than happy to accommodate. To avoid burnout Children should wait until high school before specializing in a sport. In the book by Joel Spring, Making Athletics a Positive Experience for Your Child: 101 Ways to be a Terrific Sports Parent, he explains that children are not even physically capable of handling competitive sports. Most young kids are not capable of handling vigorous practices or games that are required in specializing of a sport. If children don't specialize in sports at a young age, they will be better suited learning how to develop a variety of motor and athletic skills that transfer from one sport to another and can't be developed by specializing (Fish).

There is no doubt that youth sports have become a huge force in society. Today's forms of youth sports, which are competitive in nature, are hurting the future sports of involvement for many reasons.

First, the age and nature of youth sports begins at too early. Second, children are being burned-out of sports at a young age. Third, the specialization of sports has dramatically affected participation in other numerous sports and the development of transferable skills. Finally, children are being pressured by parents to participate early to gain an advantage over their peers. With these factors affecting our youth, the future of high school sports might be in jeopardy. The trend is still so young that we don't know the long term societal effects of early competition on future participants but many are quitting. We need to remember that these are just games and should be fun and enjoyable to those who participate in.

ReferencesFerguson, Andrew. (1999). Inside the Crazy Culture of Kids Sports. Time. 1-8.
David, Paulo. (2004). Human Rights in Youth Sport: A Critical Review of Children's Rights in Competitive Sports. Nashville, TN: Rutledge.
Essa, Eva.(2002). Introduction to Early Childhood Education, 4E. Stamford, CT. Thomson Delmar Learning.
Slentz, K & Krogh, S. (2001). Early Childhood Development and its Variations. Florence, KY. Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.
Engh, Fred. (2002). Why Johnny Hates Sports. Garden City Park, NY. Square One.
Lawrence, Jean. (2004). Stress of Youth Sports. WebMD Feature. 1-2.
Wolff, Rick. (1997). Good Sports: The Concerned Parents Guide to Competitive Youth Sports, 2E. Champaign, IL. Sports Publishing, LLC.
Taylor, Jim. (2002). Positive Pushing: How to Raise a Successful and Happy Child. Hyperion.
Susani, D & Stewart, C. (2007). Specialization in Sport: How Early?...How Necessary?. Retrieved on February 12, 2007, from website: http://www.coachesinfo.com/article/7/
Maher, Charles. (2005). School Sports Psychology: Perspectives, Programs and Procedures. Binghamton, NY. Haworth Press.
Fish, Joel. (2003). 101 Ways to be a Terrific Sports Parent: Making Athletics a Positive Experience for Your Child. New York, NY. Simon & Schuster, Inc.
Votano, Paul. (2000). The Trouble With Youth Sports: What the Problems are and How to Solve Them. Philadelphia, PA. Xlibris Corporation.
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I read this before, needing it again. Should be filed under "things that make you go hmmm"