it was the dual between labette and pratt. they were in pretty much the same situation,end of a period and obvious loss of control. the actual statement in the rule book is "beyond reaction time". anyway thanks for the college wrestling lesson. i will be in attendance at the labette/ neosho dual, i will let you know how many times i see loss of control called there too. i know you have seen takedowns called in college wrestling where the only supporting body parts were two toes, and the only control was two feet. it's odd that you haven't seen very many loss of control calls.

I'm not going to argue whether it was control or not as I didn't watch the whole match, I just happened to notice that were 2 officials though, so if it was really in question there 2 sets of eyes watching it.

Not loss of control when Blair was grabbing air while fighting off his back? A wrestler doesn't need to "establish" control to be awarded 1 point for an escape. Max, we will put you solidly in the line with nobody in it that claims that not only was it not a lame call, it was......solid.

Eric, when was he grabbing for air?? Had the left hand on top of the head and the other around his leg. Was he on is back? Yes but it was in the scramble we are speaking of.

I know you don't have to establish control to get an escape. But you DO have to get away from the opponent to earn 1 point. He never got away, he never escaped.

Like I said you have to let the scramble play out.

Go watch DII's or DI's this year. They're both in Omaha. Then you'll see what I'm talking about.

the call in question is a very tough call. but nobody has mentioned another questionable call. @ the 5.36 mark in this video is the cokeley reversal in the 3rd period. with blair having cokeleys leg elevated over his head i'm not sure control was switched to cokeley. even though cokeley had an ankle hooked and an arm around the waist. just not a call u see at the high school level. i thought the reversal was awarded early. i have nothing but great respect for both athletes. just an impartial point of view.

Max,

Blair lost control. When he was on his back he grabbed air with his right hand and had no control while fighting off. I have seen plenty of college scrambles and in many cases they would have awarded one. Seeing it live, I wasn't worried about it when I saw Herman count exposure. I also was surprised about not questioning the call at the table.

[quote=MaxPain]Eric, when was he grabbing for air?? Had the left hand on top of the head and the other around his leg. Was he on is back? Yes but it was in the scramble we are speaking of.

I know you don't have to establish control to get an escape. But you DO have to get away from the opponent to earn 1 point. He never got away, he never escaped.

Ahhhh. . . I'm no expert here but don't you just have to face your opponent? I seem to have seen that called often. Not completely away - but, on your feet and facing your opponent while you are still in contact with each other. I could have sworn that I have seen that called a million times before. Am I wrong here?

ESCAPE
An escape is when the defensive wrestler gains a neutral position and the opponent has lost control, beyond reaction time, while the supporting points of either wrestler are inbounds.

beyond reaction time, that's the tricky part. however that is when the loss of control calls started. was there an escape? not exactly. was there a reversal? certainly not. did one wrestler lose control, beyond reaction time? yes. who's reaction time? the wrestler? the referee? the crowd? the hundreds who have seen it and rewinded it, and watched it again?

hanging chad!

Just watch some videos of Ben Askern. He is one of the primary reasons for why they are now telling refs to let the scramble play out.

Key word- scramble

That "beyond reaction time" is the same language in the locked hands rule while returning a wrestler to the mat. Would a wrestler be able to lock his hands for that same amount of time that Blair lost control and not get penalized?

what do you want Chief?

No kidding.

This debate has gone on for 5 DAYS, and Herman had to make a decision in seconds. Let the call stand and move on. I am sure Cokely, Blair, and their parents are tired of reading about it.

Ha. Just responding to posts.

Did anybody think to video from the ceiling? That might be helpful next time.

For all those that think this was a blown call and "clearly" an escape, please consider what other officials who don't know the wreslter's think.

I posted the You Tube link of the match on the National Federation's Officials' website and asked for opinions on whether this was an escape and whether there was USC at the end. So far all but one has said no escape and the one said "maybe but no problem with the call."

It's about evenly divided on the USC. Most realize the match was hard fought and would tend to overlook a slight disappointment-induced bad act. Although the USC seems obvious, I'd agree with both assessments.

You can visit the site if you wish and see why those guys think this was not an escape. The have no horse in the race and they understand the rules. They don't know the kids, they are from different parts of the country, and if you look through their posts on other matters they are pretty solid on the rules. They take the time to participate in a regular discussion of the rules on that forum, share tough call situations, and try to appoach situations without bias for the outcome. "Escape or no escape" call situations are fairly common so this isn't the first time its been considered by this group.



http://www.nfhs.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=17

Wow! That is a difficult scramble to officiate. . Blair won. Cokely lost. Herman blew it. . but not intentionally. He was out of position and a ref can only see so much of the match. That is why there is a BACK-UP REF.

However, I do agree it was at least 1pt for loss of control and don't understand how it was seen otherwise.

Furthermore, Cokely had a reversal for 2 solid seconds then Blair attempted to escape but only succeeded in grabbing the leg in a desperate manner. He didn't appear to posess any type of "control."

I'm sure Steve knows he made the wrong call so let's move on if that's what yall want to.

Good link/idea to get objective feedback from others that are qualified to give it. I learned a lot. Thanks again.