The NFHS officials site is a good place to visit to learn how and why the rules are what they are...also, on this particular topic "escape or not" there are several other film clips that show similar situations usually with the same result...no escape. But more importantly, because these are close calls, the discussion always focuses on the rule and its interpretation. Also, most fans, and most coaches, don't really understand the "delayed call" concept when it comes to these types of situations. Or the idea of "reaction time" and how that applies to escapes (it is not the same as reaction time in a locked hands situation). Unfortunately, as in this situation, an official who makes a perfectly correct, textbook, call ends up being lambasted by folks who think they know the rule but simply don't.

i think "reaction time" is different for everyone. i don't think it has to do with rules. i think most know the rules, but sometimes would like for "reaction time", to be quicker or slower depending on the situation.

Defref,

That is all well and good but if the ONLY people who know how to score a match are the officials then NO ONE will want to come and watch. If everyone in the gym thinks there should be points and you get on here with your "secret society of striped shirts only know how to score a match" attitude you are going to kill the sport. It has to be OBJECTIVE. The rules have to be like the old shirts, BLACK AND WHITE. Maybe that is why the new shirts surfaced. The rules are now BLACK and way too GRAY!!!!

I am not going to comment on the match but this "ONLY THE OFFICIALS REALLY KNOW THE RULES" attitude is crap! If the sport isn't fan, coach, and wrestler friendly it will die unless all of you guys who REALLY know the rules decide to wrestle each other. That is such a pompous attitude.

Hopefully this topic can die. It is a new weekend and we are all sick and tired of reading about that match. Enough is enough.

amen, wow that's twice in one day that i agree with you, will. i must not be feeling too well, i should go lie down.

I don't know that only officials know the rules. And I don't know that everyone in the gym thought that was clearly an escape. If they did, they don't know the rules. My guess is, most didn't know. And only the ones that had some horse in the race probably cared enough to voice an opinion. But I'm confident that experienced officials can apply the rules correctly and consistently. This was a close call. But the comments here on this site that it was "clearly" a blown call demonstrate that the masses often just don't know. I don't care about that match, I don't know either kid except by reputation, and it makes no difference to me who won the match. But it was not an escape. Or at most, it was close enough to go either way. Take a look at the NFHS web site, read those posts of non-involved officials who watched the video, and you can read why it was close but not enough. You don't have to agree, but when other officials look at the film and say "no escape" and then explain why, it supports the call.

And Will, you are in the secret society. You know as well as anyone that there are a lot of fans and former wrestlers who think they know the rules (and do know some) but don't know how to apply them and make the tough calls. For example, all the posters here that are relying upon the "loss of control" as the criteria for an escape have shown they don't know what's required.

Suckerpunch....I think ye protests too much...quit reading then. This was a good match and the call generated some intense interest. I don't know that there was a lot of substantive discussion...having a "yes it was, no is wasn't, yes it was" hissyfit isn't worthwhile but if this match can be used to carefull explain and articulate the rule and educate the fans on close calls then I say let the coversation continue. If you have nothing new to add, granted, don't take up value bit space. It seems it makes a lot more sense to discuss this wrestling topic on this wrestling forum than the weather....

I support a system where the fans decide the winner as they are clearly the most objective.

I suppose you would use some sort of applause sytem like:

"Give it up for greeeeeeen!" and then a meter measures the decibel level. Then repeat for red.

Or I suppose the fans could text "GREEN" or "RED" to 90210 and at the end of the day, the winners could be announced just like on American Idol.

The only other possible solution I can see is having the referees explain every rule to each fan and make sure they are all on the same page before the event. That way the fans are not in the dark as to the rules. I suppose we will have to start certifying fans. If they don't pass a rules test with at least a 90, they will not be able to be fans anymore or something like that. I'm still hammering out the details.

my 6 year old just was in a novice tournament. Me and my friends filmed it. He didn't get any takedowns, he couldn't ride his opponent at all and at the end he showed some bad sportsmanship but not as bad as in the past. There was a questionable ref call. I thought the best way to handle this is to have me and my friends show the video of the questionable call because clearly the way we ref matches needs to change.

Man, that was written like maybe you belong to another association like the ABA. I do want to go on record stating that I am NOT a member of the secrect society. That society is for those, like you, who think you know more than the coaches, wrestlers, fans, and parents. The rule book isn't that complicated. How much time have you spent in a practice room? Have you ever been a competitor or a coach? How about a parent of a wrestler? Maybe you have but I doubt it or your pompous position of "most don't know the rules" would have never shown up on here. I am not going to debate the call with you as you obviously have taken the ridiculous opinion that it is not arguable even though you make a living making arguments. If you didn't care about the match why did you post it on the NHSCA Forum? If you didn't have a horse in the race (and it is a lie that you don't know Ryne or me) why make a comment? I was speaking in general terms when I stated that "everyone in the gym" comment. You took it directly to the match that you do seem to have a personal fascination with. Officials are just like lawyers, they make mistakes. It is okay to make a mistake but it is not okay to tell everyone that they don't know the rules or the application of them when they spend WAY more time on this sport than you do. Wrestlers work 20 to 30 hours a week and wrestle up to 175 matches a year while you attend a couple of meetings, take a test, and show up at weekend tournaments. No pracice. Reading a book isn't really good preparation.

At some point in time EVERYONE's ability to see action and make a decision in a split second begins to diminish. Your ability to get in position becomes diminished. Your stamina becomes diminished yet many of your fellow zebra fraternity members choose to remain on the mat as there exists NO check and balance system to remove them when they are no longer able to perform the required duties. When a wrestler makes a mistake he loses the match. When an official makes a mistake nothing happens! Usually the fellow officials surround them like a downed buffalo and deny the "masses" the right to know the real answer. I say, nut up and admit it when you make a mistake or when it is time for you to walk off the mat and let a new official break into the elite fraternity.

I think you have spent too much time reading the rules and trying to make they WAY more complex than they are. Calls are blown all of the time and you need to admit that instead of trying to say all of us on the outside don't know shinola.

Bwhahahahahahhaha

wow, not sure where the hissyfit was. i stated in one of the first posts about this that the question was "reaction time", sorry bud, but you are the first to have the idea, neither am i. i like the discussions, and appreciate the fact that you sent this to other officials. i think the best thing here is for you to take your own advice, other than going to the officials on this case, you haven't added anything that wasn't said before. as i let you know in a pm about another thread you showed your true colors, i think i will change my name, you clearly throw a better suckerpunch.

I can assure you not all officials fall into this category. At the Newton TOC, a longtime respected official, after making a difficult call, sought guidance from fellow officials on the interpretation and application of the rule in question. After conference, the official did "nut up" and overturn his call.

So many questions, so little space. But this will be my last post on this topic, (unless I change my mind).

Suckerpunch and Will...gentlemen, no offense intended by my comments. I am trying to focus on the particular call that generated so much interest...unfortunately, and as so often happens, these threads end up being a personal attack or they spiral out of control into something that is ugly. I apologize if I offended either of you. What has happened with my comments is what I hate to see happen on this forum (and why I don't post here much)which is that a discussion about a wrestling situation becomes personal.

Suckerpunch, I was not referring to your comment as a "hissyfit." It was a general remark about complaints that are not backed by anything other than emotion or opinion. That was not directed at you. I was responding to your "drop it" comment and wish now I'd taken that. I thought the call was an interesting topic. That interest has worn off....

Will...Sorry, I thought you were a official and that was the "secret society." You've lost me there, I guess. Doesn't matter.

I know who you are (never said I didn't, we've met once, maybe twice,) but everybody in Kansas wrestling knows your name. I do not know your son, never met him, but do know by his record and reputation that he is an outstanding wrestler. You are certainly well-qualified and knowledgable regarding wrestling, at all levels and in all respects, and I don't think you'll find anyone who thinks otherwise. You are also an ardent supporter of the sport. Based upon the posts I've seen here, I doubt if there is anyone with a broader understanding of wrestling in Kansas than you. That's sincere. And you are passionate about the sport. I would probably agree with most of what you think needs to be done to improve Kansas wrestling.

Now, my final points on the wrestling topic. This was a good match. I didn't see it live. I heard about on this site. It generated lots of discussion here. I've not talked to anyone in person about. I posted on the NFHS site to get some input on a close, controversial call that happened in my state. That's what goes on at the NFHS website everyday. We try to be better officials through civil discussion. This call was arguable, certainly, that's why I posted it. I reported back what those officials thought because it seemed to me a lot of folks were interested in what the correct call was. But it was a close call.

This wrestling situation was also interesting to me because I had a very similar call arlier this year and I spent some time second-guessing that call and getting input from other officials on the correctness of that call.

I do not put officials on a pedestal. Of course wrestling fans, parents, coaches, and participants know the rules.

If this thread gets turned into an indictment of officials, that's unfortunate, because most officials would agree with you that mistakes are made. I've seen calls "wiped off" or reversed numerous times over the years. And I've seen officials that are very reluctant to admit a mistake as well. I don't know how you address that because I don't know the reason for it. But there is a forum to have some ubiased review of alleged "blown calls" by out of state officials...the NFHS forum. Those guys are not circling the wagons for anyone. ..check out the posts, these are, for the most part, well-qualified officials.

Will, you've got a lot going on it your last post. Perhaps another thread could be started on "How to Improve Officating in Kansas" and I'd be happy to be a regular contributor. But for now, I'm going to eat some crow and take Suckerpunch's advice.

In closing, apologies to all. Everyone enjoy the sport. Do what you can to contribute and improve it. Get a kid involved. Officiate if you can.

Bob Ford
Wrestling Official

Defrag, nice post.

Thanks for reffing. Without you guys (and gals) we have no sport.

It is a very, very hard job. I tried it once, for a whole year. I SUCKED at it. That gave me a new level of respect and empathy for the ones that do it well (and there are plenty of them).

This is my first year ref. have coach kids club for 10 to 12 yrs. I'm telling you, it's alot harder then you think, when your the ref. I think every caoch should ref a couple of matches,at some piont and see just how good you are and how much you know the rules. And to know you cost someone there whole carrier, lost millions of dollars, and now will never be able to go to a good college.
I do love this sport, but the way people talk to you and call you names, just makes you wounder if your doing the right thing.

themat: don't be discouraged and stick with it for a few years before you decide you don't like it. A lot of new officials with potential end up getting run off because of unrelenting and unfair criticism. If nothing else, relax and tell the red-faced screamers you are new at this and are hoping to get better. If you are doing kids' tournaments, there is nothing worse on the ego of a new official. Way too much emotion, too close quarters, unskilled and uncertain wrestling, and parent coaches. It is a no-win situation. Ignore it the best you can and focus on the match. My highest admiration is for those who will officiate kids wrestling.

There are a lot of good resources to help you. I strongly recommend the NFHS officials forum. From there you can access sites that have all sorts of information on how to become a better official. Learn the rules. Read the case book. Often. Nothing will get you in trouble quicker than not knowing the written rule. There's no reason for that. Watch matches on film (including yours) and think about situations before they happen. Watch other good officials and take things you like from them. How they start matches, award points, hold themselves out. Look sharp as you can when officiating. Be confident. Ask experienced officials for real feedback and take it as constructive criticism. Also,coaches, at the right time and right place, can be good sources well. If you are having several coaches tell you that you need to get in better postition, you probably need to be considering that. Coaches want consistency.

The hardest calls are the judgment calls...control, stalling, edge of the mat situations, potentially dangerous. The best advice I can give is to be consistent and understand what your criteria is going to be in these situations which ought to be within the "norm" of other officials in your area. When I first started, it seemed stalling calls just weren't being made. Now there's an emphasis on it. Go to rules meetings and clinics.

Also, while wrestling can be very, very important to some people, it may seem their whole life revolves around it,but it is unlikely that any one call or one match is going to cost anyone a career, any money, or a chance to wrestle in college. Even Dan Gable lost a match. What can have serious consequences though, and what you must learn and react to, are situations that might result in injury. No match, no point, no trophy or title is worth a dislocated shoulder or cracked head. Protecting the wrestlers is our only real job, the rest is just gravy.