I find it very interesting the number of kids from Middle School and even High School age that compete in the youth wrestling tournaments in Kansas all winter. Do these kids not participate on their school's wrestling teams? I ask this because the KSHSAA website states the following:

During the school year and during the school season of activity:
A student may not practice with or play on a non-school team in the same sport/activity.

Now, I interpret this to mean that, once the school's wrestling season starts, these kids can't be on the local youth wrestling team and compete at tournaments. Yet there are alot of kids wrestling 12U and 14U that I would assume also wrestle with the local HS or MS/JH team. How do they get away with this?
(I only ask this question because my son will be eligible to tryout for the MS team next year and it seems that he won't be able to do youth wrestling too).

they have to choose one or the other. they cant legally due both. some school in eastern kansas wrestle right after football, and that lets the kid finish wrestling for the school and then they can wrestle kids

Kids may participate in non school wrestling unitll they attend a school practice. If they compete outside the school after that they become ineligible for school competition (this includes freethrow competitions during basketball or fun runs during track). Middle schools in kansas do not have a defined season some end before Christmas,while some don't start untill after Christmas. This would explain why you see middle school kids wrestling youth tournaments all season long. In our case wrestlers are allowed to participate in youth tournaments up untill Tulsa Nationals. Our season ends the week before subdistrics allowing them to compete in youth wrestling again.

Another forum dealt with this issue, as I am sure others have. The one I am thinking of is Topic: What to do if your advance kid is in a new program. My son's school, Derby has already wrestled at least 1 tournament and possibly 2, that would have disqualified him from USJOC and Tulsa Nationals plus, Liberty, The Great Lakes in Ohio and other National level tournaments. We have decided that for that reason, the tougher practices, and as much as I hate to say it, tougher national competition to not have him wrestle for his school until High School unless the laws change. I know that some have written letters to legislators, and so forth to get this ruling on a state level changed. I continue to be amazed at how people say it can't be done, especially with elected officials. Even for those appointed by school board members who are elected. I know that for myself this will be one serious issue regarding my vote come election time. By the way I did receive favorable response from Representative Tiahrt and Brownback regarding their willingness to look at the legality of this issue. Both thought that it bordered on illegal and believe that there is some possible federal legislation that could eventually force a change but both were also reluctant to delve into enforcing federal guidelines onto Kansas, which by the way is one of the few states in our area where "Dual Participation" is not allowed. How ludicrous is this? If your child runs cross country, during cross country season they can not run or participate in a weekend fun run in the community.

I know in the Topeka area the middle school season ends around the 15th of December. Plus the Topeka 501 school district dropped middle school wrestling this year.

Mike,
Some of us don't have a problem with the regulation regarding dual participation.
I for one have a problem with these national sports events from the standpoint, that it makes representing school seem ho hum. Many years ago I was speaking with a parent of a wrestler who had just entered high school and this parent told me how much they were going to miss going to Tulsa Nationals that year. I was amazed that someone would consider it a step down to represent their school on the varsity team as a freshmen. This freshmen by the way went on to win the state tournament that year. We are now having high school basketball and football games televised, what's next middle school? We tell kids to wait to have sex or drink alcohol until they are adults but yet we are pushing them in many other areas to grow up fast. Our club, like others, has had a number of kids participate in these national events and the largest percentage were either academically ineligble or burned out by the time they got to high school.
Like others have told you I don't think you will get the regulation changed. The easiest way to be able to participate in both is if your school/league changes their season to conform with the later season that alot of middle schools use. Then it's a simple matter of an agreement with your coach for the students wrestling kids to report for practice following Tulsa. I would suggest that now is a good time for this to happen due to the Chisolm Trail League so graciously allowing the Ark Valley to join us (gig intended). This merger may allow for a shake-up of the middle school leagues as well. I would like to see, where possible, the middle school leagues include the same schools as the high school leagues in order to build rivalries and school pride at an early age.

Our school doesn't even offer middle school wrestling!

Our son a middle school student does not participate in the middle school wrestling program for many of the reasons listed above. I don't understand Kansas. If you have a look at the Oklahoma wrestling programs youth and high school both, even the High School teams are allowed to participate at a National level as a team! What is the benefit of Kansas limiting these athletes to only participate in their league? The resource is present to allow our Kansas wrestlers to reach beyond by competing with a whole Nation. Why hold our wrestlers back? In addition, the friendships and bonds my family has made over the past 6 years of competing nationally are PRICELESS!!! I would have to say that we have more friends ABROAD the USA than we have in our own hometown. I can deeply understand missing the National tournaments.

wrestlemom,
Given the choice between OK and KS in which to educate my child in a public school system, I'll take KS any day! If you look at the results of KS wrestlers on a national level at the high school level, we compete very well per capita. Especially considering KS has only in recent years embraced freestyle/greco wrestling.
I assure you, that while some KSHSAA rules seem to hinder athletic development, they were written for a good reasons, most of which are still valid today.

Will Kansas ever have this rule changed because I want to wrestle Highschool but I also would like to wrestle in some big tournaments like Tulsa.

sportsfan02, what is the advantage to limiting participation to ONLY school events??? Is this truely an advantage? Or is this hindering? I'm open enough to hear the other side? What are the reasons Kansas does not let ANY of their athletes participate outside of the school during the season? I believe SOME schools have even banned the dual sports such as playing a league Basketball during the school Track season. I realize this is not a Kansas law, but the schools get their own interpretation and ideas from somewhere. Please provide me with the factual reason(s) supporting the law Kansas currently has.

I was at the Tulsa Nationals a couple years ago and was talking to the National Coaches Association President. He said that as of that time there was only 3 States that had really dumb High School Athletic Association Rules that really undermined a young athlete's ability to improve and compete. He said that 2 of those State's were addressing their shortcomings and were overhauling their stupid rules. He said the other State thinks that they are the only people who really know how to do it right and are absolutely, rediculasly holding to their ignorant rules. Guess who this LAST REMAINING STATE PROGRAM IS......KANSAS !!!!!!

wrestlemom,
I can list a few for you:
1. The purpose of public education is to educate, not build a better athlete. If having the best athlete is your goal I would suggest you check out some of the private schools in other states in particular Blair Academy in Ohio. Now I've never checked into it, but I'm guessing if your son doesn't make varsity that tuition, room and board, can be pretty pricey. I'm very skeptical of the quality of education provided at some of these athletemills. I believe at least one of the basketball schools has been sanctioned for a lack attention to the classroom.
2. Secondly, one of the main purposes of sports in schools is to encourage the student to apply themselves in the classroom. If you offer them unlimited opportunities outside of the school system the incentive can be damaged or destroyed all together. Ours is one of the sports that offers nothing in terms of big financial gains. Other than the possibilty of a paid college education, opportunities which are disappearing more and more every day, the payoff is nil. If obtaining a free college education for your child is the goal (as someone mentioned in a previous thread), you're better off taking all the money spent on wrestling from early childhood on and spend it on tutors because an academic scholarship is still the best way to go.
3. Talk to your high school coach and ask them if they are in favor of athletes participating in their sport during season. My guess is they'll say NO. Why would a high school coach dedicate themselves for so little money when their best athletes may be only dedicating themselves to the high profile national events? Not to mention the possibility of injury at a non-school event and the can of worms that opens up in regards to insurance liability and the effect on the school team.
I can't answer you about your own school districts policy and that is a local issue as you stated. Frankly, I've never heard of such a rule. We are fortunate in wrestling that the offseason conflicts little with the school year. Our kids can wrestle freestyle/greco without having to give up much if any high school sport. I do believe the child should participate in as many school sanctioned sports/activities as possible in order to broaden themselves. Once the CHILD, not me as the parent, decides to focus on one sport/activity then I would let them dedicate their time to that one sport/activity only. Remember, even if your child isn't the best trombone player the rest of the band may need them!

Blair Academy
2 PARK STREET
P.O. BOX 600
BLAIRSTOWN, NJ 07825

Blair Academy

Blair Academy is a private Presbyterian academy, with very rigorous academic standards.

Many of the successful wrestling programs in Ohio are private Catholic high schools.

Walsh Jesuit, St. Paris Graham, St. Edward, etc.!

Were one to check the academic standards and accomplishments of any of these schools, I am confident they will discover they exceed that of the public schools.

Rick,
I didn't mean to imply that Blair had substandard academics just that I had no personal knowledge of such. I do know for a fact that some of the east coast bb factories DO have substandard academics.

Mike,
For the life of me I can't figure out why you ever left Oklahoma! You are certainly entitled to your opinion as am I but in the end I think mine hold more water. You just have to understand not all of us want to "be like Mike".

My son's CYO's school athletic association does not offer wrestling as a sport. I find this an interesting topic anyway.

First on national tournaments, we have never been to one other than Liberty Nationals last year and I consider that more of a regional tournament at this point. I had an e-mail communication with Cael Sanderson's father a little more than a year ago on another subject and in his response to me he recommended not having my son participate in national tournaments. He said his recommendation was to restrict him to only state and regional tournaments. He said all of his sons thanked him for doing this and that they would have never lasted if he had entered them in all those national tournaments. His concern was young kids burning out and I guess he has seen plenty of it.
Mike, I am not saying that makes your individual path incorrect but that was his advice to me.

I do also believe that sportsfan02's point about injuries is a valid one. In Kansas I believe these laws are applicable to all sports. I think that is part of the reason why there is not a wrestling Grand State. I know for a fact that high school football coaches would not want their players participating on any other type of football team during the season. I would imagine that wrestling coaches are the same way.

I also think that at this age it is time to start to give the wrestler a little more choice in the decision. I guess I disagree a little with you on this point too, Mike. I do agree that parents have to be involved, but at some point the young person has to start making important decisions for themselves. I mean they have to think for themselves when they are on the mat. Next year my son will have to make a decision as to what high school he will attend in two years. As parents we have pretty much decided on three to four acceptable schools for him. I believe we will give him the final choice on this very important decision for himself. I just believe it helps develop him as a person to learn to make choices and decisions for himself after he has listened to our input.

By the way, he probably cannot change anything about the current law but I'm pretty sure that Phil Kline the Kansas Attorney General was a very good high school wrestler.

Mike,
Would you kindly point me in the direction of one of my posts where I attacked you personally or said those who disagreed with me should be "shipped out"? If you can do so I will gladly edit my post!
I too have had the opportunity to move to other states to advance/continue my professional career. Three of those states were California, Missouri and Oklahoma. Twice I have had to leave an employer because I was unwilling to make those moves. After careful consideration it was my opinion that while all the above states were nice places to visit, I wouldn't want to live or raise a family there!
I will not discuss this subject further with you as it is obvious you cannot do so without distorting things I've said or falling back on internet threats. I worry about our sport when people can't have a simple debate without letting their emotions get the best of them. The bottom line is some people just don't have the temperment for wrestling!

Vince, I appreciate your comments here and think they each have a lot of validity. I will talk to Cael this weekend at Tulsa about this and see his perspective. I do believe that too much is too much and the national tournaments should be limited if possible. I will say that Cael in particular is making an awful lot of appearances at "National" tournaments. I have regular contacts with his brother at Utah State so I will also communicate with him on his views. I agree their opinions should carry some weight.

Regarding injuries, again a valid point, but while the chances of injuries can be reduced the reality of it is that you just never know when they would occur, could happen the first time out. I have just approached life that you have to live each day and each moment, there is no guarantee of tomorrow. The truth is though that there is greater potential from wrestling more.

Again, a valid point regarding some sports objection to dual participation. My point earlier though is that the coaches still maintain control. As of now, my understanding could be wrong; if a coach wanted to take their team to Cliff Keen or another outside tournament, they could not do so. Leave the call up to the individual coaches, again this rule applies to academics as well as athletics. The High School team should always take precedence over club or individual in this situation. That is a point I think we all agree on.

On your point regarding when a young person starts to make decisions; from your post, I think we actually agree on this one far more than we disagree. Reread my earlier post, if I need to make clarification I will gladly do so.

As always Vince, nice to engage with you. Also nice to know that on the whole scheme of things we agree more than we disagree.

Sportsfan02 - "For the life of me I can't figure out why you ever left Oklahoma!"

Would rather have this one off line but don't have a way to contact you, email me if need be. I will delete the comment as it is obviously not worked out yet. I do believe that that comment is easy to see why it could be taken wrong.

Mike,
I believe that comment refers to your beloved former state not you and was simply a question as to why someone would leave such a paradise to come to this backwards state. You answered the question to my satisfaction.
Again I ask, where are my insults towards you personally and the reference to my detractors to leave?