I am just posting this because I want to know if you would be interested in helping me out. You seem to know alot about the split tournament format, I have only talked to three other people that would help me out and with your knowledge it could help a ton.

Jeremy

JRob,,
I am willing to help out in any way needed,,,

thanks, you seem to have knowledge of the format and can be a tremoundous help
Jeremy

I spoke with numerous of out of state coaches this past weekend who have been involved in the split format. Some are willing to give some ideas to help up get it up and going. I have e-mail addresses and names of a few. When we get together we can put all that together.

good luck on this idea, don't spend too much time on it

I think split format is a misnomer, "slotted" may be a better word for it, in my experiences, all the mats were committed for a specifice time period to that age group or groups of wrestlers.
Nigel, if you have not seen it happen, you wont believe the ease it creates on the wrestlers and the crowd involved. I think that it would solve a lot of the issues there are with the state and national tournament burn out that is created. For 32 yrs i thought there was only one way to do it, after seeing it happen, and the carry over on to the parents and the wrestlers it was great. How many times have you been to a big tourney and never saw anything but the gym. I was able to enjoy the areas we went to as well, my son was much more focused and i tell u another thing, the officals were fresher, the crowd calmer (Kansas is the only state in my experience where people actually think they can chew out an offical--try that in Nebraska, iowa or california,,u are out of there) and the vendors told me that they actually sold more items because the people coming in were fresh, positive rather than struggling through the day

For all interested in helping out, I would like to start a chat that we might be able to meet on at times that would deal with just this so we could start to figure things out.

3 hours is better than the 9 we waited to wrestle at Nationals. He has a first round bye and then did not wrestle again until 6 p.m. That is what makes people want to "try another sport".
Everyone I talked to last weekend who had been a part of the split format was completely in favor of it. I understand that the parents that have kids in both the lower and upper age groups will have to be there all day, but they would anyway. What about all the ones that don't have kids in both?

I am a proponent of using split formats. At my club's annual tournament, we have been using a split format for the past five years, and have been very happy with it. Kids don't have to wait as long between matches, and most parents enjoy spending only 1/2 the time in the gym (unless they have kids in both sessions, or are coaching).

I also did the bracketing at the Folkstyle Nationals, and a split format would not work there. With lots of 64-man brackets, there were some mats with only three brackets being wrestled on them, and most had only 4-5 brackets. By the final rounds, the only way to get the kids the required recovery time between matches is to be sure that all of the brackets are still wrestling at the end. Otherwise, we would have to schedule breaks between rounds, which would result in the tournament lasting significantly longer than it did. With many people needing to travel across the country, we didn't want to unnecessarily delay the end of the event.

Im glad that you are trying to at least make an effort to make this happen but its been my experiance that big things like this just don't happen at the state tournament, you are facing mnay clubs who are sure to vote it down even if it make it to the table to discuss

Another idea just for smaller invitational tourneys would be to change to all round robin formats. I have had my son participate in these in Iowa and Nebraska. They limit the number of kids, group by true weight in groups of 4-8, and have the rounds accordingly. My son wrestled in the biggest tournament in Nebraska this year and 6 kids in his bracket, wrestled 5 matches, we were wrestling almost every 45 minutes with 3-5 weight classes assigned to the mats. The tourney was split format with 8-12 wrestling from 9-3, then the older kids and an open division wrestling from 3-8. They had about 1100 kids and it went really well.

I don't really like round robins at all. Especially if you only put 4 kids in 1. I think 5 is the minimum. The reason I say this is becuase most tournaments give medals to the top 4 places and I don't beleive in giving a kid a medal just for showing up and lossing every match. There are some who beleive you should get something just for an effort but I think a simple pat on the back and some words of encouragement is enough.

You don't have to medal anyone for just showing up Nigel, the point behind those tournaments is just getting the mat time needed is all. the concept of having rounds is just another way of running a tourney, this type specifically for the smaller ones.

Nigel,

I appreciate it that you are in a very constructive manner trying to tell us that realistically that this is unlikely to pass and that we might be just wasting our time.

You may be correct in that assessment, but I still think it is at least worth an attempt by our group. I am really a strong advocate of all tournaments having shorter waits between matches and shorter total days at the gyms and arenas. I really believe that it would help promote wrestling in our State. I pretty sure it would in my area of Johnson County. I believe there are a lot of very good athletes playing basketball here. These kids have a lot more potential as a wrestlers than as a basketball players. I really think that the split formats help achieve both of these things, shorter days and waits betweem matches. This would help entice more new families to try and stay with wrestling.

I was not thinking about it at State before Coach Roberts started his poll on it. But I believe it could be worthwhile at State too now, especially after reading about Illegalhold's experience with it in other States. Really, Nigel, doesn't it make sense that a 10 to 12 hour day and 3 to 4 hour waits for matches are just too long for kids say 7 to 12 years old and families who are new to this sport? Really, most people outside of the sport would probably say that if you cut that it half it would still be too long. It may be okay for the true wrestling fan and coaches, but if your child is not having initial success a family new to wrestling may think that it is not the correct sport for their family due to the long tournament days. Don't we want the sport to grow with the general sports public?

Wrestling is the one sport that I have never felt comfortable asking my family or friends to attend to watch my son due to the length of the day and the long wait between matches.

Well Vince,

Im not really sure what to say about the situation. Too me I have never faced the issue that your group seems to be having. I loved wrestling so much when I was in kids that I never had a problem being at a tournament all day and having long wiat between my matches. I still have the same love today so I don't mind coaching all day. It would be kind of unfair to say that if kids can't deal with the system the way it is now and has been in the past then maybe this isn't the sport for them. Its just a little hard to swallow that so many kids before now have made it through and not made a big deal out of it. If this is truly what you seek then like I said go ahead but I can't imagine you will have much support from those that have been around for a long time and haven't had any problem with it

Nigel,
Let me start off by saying that i dont mind being there all day as I love the sport. However, as a coach I have saw many kids or parents that refuse to go to the tournaments because they last so long.
I am just looking at possiblilites right now, nothing like I am going to say this is the right way to do things but maybe we are blind to what is best for the sport as a whole.

Jeremy

Nigel,

I realize that many have made it through our current system both now and in the past. Actually my son and my family have made it through his first six years. Truthfully, the only reason we did was because I realized early that he was not a soccer, football, basketball or baseball player. I knew he had his most potential in wrestling. He did not start out anywhere close to how Marvio Tischhauser did but he did have enough success early to keep him enthused. I could see all the time we devoted to it was well worth it to him. Athletics and exercise has always been a big part of my life and I want it to be a part of my kids' life too.

To me though the question is does our current system attract the general public? Are we developing mass appeal for wrestling? Do we want a system that weeds out the true tough survivors so early in their introduction to the sport? In my opinion the long weekend tournaments do not entice new participants and families into the sport. I think the popularity of the sport suffers because of it. I want to see it grow in popularity. It is my son's sport and will probably eventually be his kids sport. I would like to see more media coverage rather than the pathetic amount of coverage wrestling currently gets. I think if that starts to happen then you might start seeing a reversal in the drop of college wrestling programs. I know Title IX is often blamed for that, but football and basketball programs are not being dropped. If the general public saw wrestling in the same way as most of the people on our forum, I do not believe we would be losing college wrestling programs.

So why does the general sports public not find wrestling that appealing? Maybe wrestling needs to be looked at and maybe some things need to change. I know that shortening youth tournaments in Kansas is not going to be the cure for all that but maybe it is a place where we can make a start at least to make it more popular in Kansas and who knows maybe someday we can get a college program at KU, KSU or Wichita State.

Richard,Nigel and Naysayers of what we are trying to do here. I think everyone is thinking there is some "magic bullet" that is going to work in developing a format that will address the length and waiting issues of tournaments. We are simply doing some brainstorming. I have seen it work, in split format, slotted format and separated formats for tournments up to 1200 kids in less space than we utilize now.

Let us borrow (not verbatim i know) from RFK, Some people look at things and say why? I look at things and say why not?

Like i have said previously, for 32 yrs i knew really no other ways than that torturous kansas 6 am to 6 pm days of wrestling. I like Nigel and other fanatics, addicts or whatever--did not mind, I lived and breathed it. I coached high school on tues and thurs, either a varsity or an open tourney on sat, and coached novice on sunday. As a high school coach for 9 yrs at a small school i lost many wrestlers and more so wrestling parents that were just burned out from the kids experience. Also like Gonz, Grater and Juby, I organized on a much smaller scale, tournaments, did brackets rolled mats, begged for parents and volunteers and even officiated my own meets.

I think we need to try to adopted a "best practices" attitude, borrow things that work from other experiences, states and organizations. i am working to save and preserve wrestling, expand the sport for others and extend the wrestling careers of those "borderline" kids and parents who suffer through the long seasons and days.

Richard:

I do not find your comments offensive. I really try not to take offense to anyone's comments on this forum. You are correct all of our communications would come across better in person. I have met probably at least a half a dozen people this year from my forum postings. They did not always agree with me but I feel that I have made friends with all of them. I truly believe that all of us who are posting on this subject (You, Nigel Isom, Illegalhold, Jeremy Roberts, Mike Juby, Olathewrestlingmom, myself, and anyone else who has posted on the topic) no matter what their side on the issue are expressing what they believe is best for wrestling in Kansas.

I never said the split tournament was my idea. I started posting in favor of it after I read Mike Juby's post that he said he was a proponent of it because it saves about 80% of the people about 50% of their time. I also remembered how much we enjoyed the format at the Ottawa District meets. It wasn't my idea for the the split format at State either that was Coach Roberts who put up that opinion poll. I thought about it and I believe it could work even there.

I am not familiar with illegalhold's specific format. I am sure I will learn more about it when the group gets together. If you mean by round one just the first match, I doubt that is what the format is. It probably means as many matches as you can get in during the designated time period for each age group. Hopefully you would be able to still get the same 2 front, 1 back, and maybe even a third front in the time period. I would like to ideally see each age group at least go through those matches the first day, but I do not think it would be so bad for the finalists to wrestle two matches on the second day. I don't think it runs in a way that you go beyond the alloted time for the period, but if you have to wait up to 30 minutes to start that is really pretty normal. I have been to regular tournaments before where the start has been delayed well over an hour.

That is great about the attendance at the Wichita tournament but how much of that is just the same people who always go and/or families and friends of the participating wrestlers? Are we really getting as much of the general high school student body attending that meet as they do high school football and basketball games? I went to the regionals at Blue Valley West. There was plenty of room to find a seat and I did not see a whole lot of the general high school student body there either. How much live TV coverage did the event get? I did not see any live coverage in KC. I saw basically coverage towards the back of the sports section in Kansas City for both the Missouri and Kansas State championships. These other sports that you compare us to favorably with the length of day issue (golf, tennis, swimming, gymnastics, track, etc.) as you said they too are minor sports with the American public and most of them also are losing college programs too. We need to compare wrestling instead to football and basketball. These two are not losing college programs and they certainly get a great deal of media coverage. I believe that wrestling collegiate programs will not grow again untill wrestling recognizes that it has a problem attracting the general sports public and it needs to change some things to achieve that. Otherwise, I guess wrestling is doomed to be a minor sport. Is that what we want?

I realize I am a novice to the sport with no actual high school participation as a youth and only six years watching my son. I believe a new person can sometimes offer a different perspective that might be constructive. I am trying to offer the perspective of a parent. Also of a parent who still remembers what it is like to be a real new parent in those first 3 to 4 years when it was uncertain if this was the correct sport for my child and family. I believe these are the people we need to attract and keep in our sport. What do these parents like and dislike about youth wrestling in Kansas today? If the new parents do not like it, they will not keep their children involved. If most of these new parents do not like something, they are probably more likely to just depart than to express themselves on this forum like I am. I know most of the people who are on this forum are not going to listen to me though because of my inexperience. I think you should listen to illegalhold though, because he does have a lot of experience and he thought like the rest of you on this issue until he saw something different work better.

Finally yes you are right that my family needs to pick our tournaments a little better. My son has only wrestled at Salina once and I was not there so I do not know about that one. We have pretty much decided as a family that we are going to have our son wrestle at Maize instead of the Park City/Wichita Classic next year due to the Maize split and the three hour delay for the final and third place matches at the Park City/Wichita Classic. That three hour delay has become our stumbling block with the Park City/Wichita Classic. We may want to go see the high school finals next year after the Maize morning session. I think it is great your club does a split. What club and tournament is that?

"Some people see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and say why not?"
-- Robert F. Kennedy