What would you coaches or dads do if you have a son who has lots of wrestling experience and is attending a school with a junior high program made up of all beginners. Furthermore, he gets frustrated because he is not getting challenged and is not learning anything new nor is given a chance to practice and review moves he already knows and is to the point where he wants to quit
due to boredom. That is the situation with my nephew at this time, any suggestions.

We moved here from Oklahoma this last summer and I have thought long and hard about this question. As much as I hate it, the simple answer is that we will not wrestle Jr. High in Kansas. The primary reason is that there are three months or more of tournaments in nearby states on a weekly basis and some in state that you cannot wrestle in due to some of the rules in this state. I have spoken to many quality wrestlers and coaches at or near this age that choose instead to wrestle for clubs, practice with them and some with the Jr. High team if the team allows, but they do not wrestle for their schools. I was actually speaking to a coach yesterday and we were speaking about this particular rule. I have heard some of the arguments as to why this rule is in effect but so far none have convinced me that it is worthwhile. You actually prevent the wrestler from wrestling the best competition, which hinders their chance to improve. As a former high school coach and one who still provides a little coaching with our club and a good deal in other sports, I think it is the coaches’ responsibility to give their athletes the best opportunity to succeed, both academically and athletically. This rule prevents a coach from doing that. If you want your wrestler to excel, wrestle the best, and wrestle more, it means wrestling with a club instead of Jr. High. It also means wrestling out of state tournaments like OK and Nationals like Tulsa Nationals, Topeka, (which has a cadet division this year), Cliff Keen, etc. It is not that there are not good wrestlers in Jr. High, just that many of the best don’t wrestle there. I would make sure of one thing though, talk to the coach and let them know your situation. If the coach is worth anything at all they will try and help the kid improve and do what is best for that kid.

That's the spirit! Do not forget it's all about the individual and not the team.

I hate to say this but when your out their on the mat with someone stronger, faster, and better than you, their is not a whole lot a team can do for you.

ok sportsfan are you saying that a kid that is going to suffer by not being able to get more knowledge should go out. The first thing is that the school is not probably not going to be any good and it may help out in the log run by letting the other kid getting some mat time. I do beleive that in this sitution the kid should come first instead of the school program

Jr.High wrestling is a problem. The KSHSAA ties down the wrestler for 10 weeks and limits them to a few duals and a tournament or two while those who are not in a Jr.High program can wrestle a tournament every weekend. I think they should relax the rule prohibiting you from outside participation during the season. If a kid wants to wrestle Jr.High and go to USA Wrestling tournaments on weekends when his team is doing nothing he should be able to without penalizing himself or his team. The KSHSAA and KWCA are too restrictive in their participation philosophy for both coaching and wrestling.

Tough spot Crow, but quitting the middle school program mid-stream, would not be my first choice. I posted a question earlier re: middle school rules and really didn't get it answered. I have heard about some kids wrestling for middle school, and getting a little extra practice with other teams. Is that legal? I don't know. Would anyone turn you in? I doubt it. My son is challenged in practice because most of the other experienced wrestlers are wrestling school in our town. We have a good shot at winning the League title! Regarding the number of meets, we have 5 duals, one J.V. tournament, one Sat. tournament, and one League championship. Thats app. one meet per week. However, you may get more matches/week in federation wrestling. Plus in school, your not at the tournament all day every Saturday. School wrestling is done mostly on Tue., Thurs. evenings. There have been several complaints about the federation tournaments this year. Overall, my son has enjoyed the school wrestling. Heck, they've got cheerleaders, team managers bus trips and everything! And when schools played-out, he will drop down to federation where he will only have to wrestle kids 12 and under, (instead of 13, and 14 yr. olds in middle school).

I "feel your pain". Have read posts on both sides of the issue. My son ran into this two years ago. He and one other wrestler had 6-7 yrs of club wrestling under their belt, were both state placers in kids. Pretty much everyone else were novices as middle-schoolers in a brand-new program.

We struggled with this, ultimately decided that every program has to start somewhere, and we wanted to help get the new program off the ground.

Down-side was, my son got very few worth-while matches either season, then went to kids state 14yo as an 8th grader, got his butt handed to him by a bracket full of Freshman who had wrestled varsity all year. Of course, he is planning on letting that roll down-hill this year..grin

I would stick with the team. A lot of people around our town "bad mouth" wrestling because they say it focuses too much on the individual and other negative aspects of the sport. (cutting weight, rabid parents ar matside, etc.) Your "glory" would be in being able to say you were there and helped when the program got started. I coach mainly novice because my joy comes when you see that kid when he first comes to practice and his mom is trying to help him get those funny shoes put on, and then when he wins his first medal, (probably got 3rd or 4th in a 4 man round robin) and then into his second year when he gets first place and had to wrestle 3 tough matches. Just my opinion, feel free to disagree.

Coach Packard-Osawatomie Kid's Club

To contact representatives of the KSHSAA simply go to kshsaa.org and you will find an email address for everyone. For KWCA you might want to start with Kit Harris of Baldwin.

I will admit again, I am still new to this state and am learning, but, I have a question that martialarts wrestler and others have me thinking about. Does this rule apply to other sports? If so, I know from experience that athletes in this state are being hurt. I have coached other sports on a high school and club level. I had the honor of seeing many of those going to D1 top 20 schools and I know that coaches look other places and not just schools when recruiting. Most soccer players for example are recruited from club teams as opposed to schools, and basketball players are often recruited from AAU and other leagues. Wrestlers for that matter are looked at by numerous coaches, at a variety of tournaments like Cliff Keen in recent years and others. One of the primary reasons for recruiting at schools is to check out academics, and attitude, not always athletics. This is especially true in some sports like soccer and on ocassion, wrestling where the coaches sometimes coach for the stipends not because of the experience and knowledge of the sport. Before I take too much opposition here, I know that many if not most schools have quality coaches in their perspective sports including wrestling but we have to admit that sometime's coaches are teachers who know little about the sport.

I believe strongly in supporting the schools and in the components learned from team participation. My answer would quite likely be much different if this question was about High School participation. Yet, I also believe strongly in fighting for the best opportunities for the kids. While I know academics are primary, I also know that for many deserving kids, the only opportunity some will have to continue their education lies in athletics. I was one of those kids who obtained a degree and without sports would not have been able to go to college. I would hope the school system in our state was helping foster this kind of support as opposed to preventing it. I would also like to know who to contact to voice dissatisfaction regarding this rule in our state that Cokeley mentions. Our posts crossed cyperspace Cokeley but thanks for the information. Hopefully many reading this thread will start making the contacts.

Martialarts,

I know there are a few that will never understand my reasoning when it comes to wrestling as a team sport. What saddens me most are those people are possibly instilling the "me, me, me" values in our youth, in other areas as well. I guess taking pride in your community ie. school has little meaning anymore.
Our middle schoolers are not required to report for practice until after Tulsa Nationals as long they are participating with a club. This allows the kids who have been wrestling kids to continue doing so, and the middle school coaches to spend more time with novices. What if the parents of wrestlers that were better than yours took the same position and refused to let their child practice with yours?
As to "doing what's best for your child", what a cop out! In the scope of things, wrestling like all sports, is the "toy department". Yes there are many fine values to be learned but hardly on a par with education, religion etc. The question is, are you and people of a like mind, the persons to be teaching those values?

Martialarts,
I think your response speaks for itself. Any retort on my part would only serve to further embarrass you. By the way you may want to check out those rules by "The Ruling Agency". LOL

Martialarts,
The key in that regulation you quote is, "on the school team", they cannot be "on the school" team if they have not joined ie. started practicing with the school team. Thus they are not in violation of the regulation in question. Once they start practicing with the middle school they are not allowed outside competition until completion of the middle school season. I assure you this is not simply one school that takes advantage of this allowance but rather many in our area of the state.

My son goes to a Catholic grade school. Our parochial schools do not have any wrestling available in our CYO athletic programs. I have found this to be an interesting topic and could not help wondering what I would do if this decision had to be made for my son. My first reaction would be to have him skip the junior high program and stick with the more competitive Kansas youth wrestling season. I can also see where sportfan02 is coming from with the team vs. me idea. I played CYO grade school basketball and football. My classmates and I had fun with it and I feel like it did promote school unity. We still talk about these positive memories.

Our family actually confronted a similar decision this year. My son's sixth grade class was trying to form a basketball team with the fifth grade. The league required a minimum of at least 7 or 8 players. His class only has eight boys and were having a hard time getting the team minimum. The two best basketball players had already decided not to play on the team and instead play on a more competitive youth basketball team. I knew it would hurt his wrestling this year but I decided to let him try to do both sports if he wanted to.

He made the decision only to wrestle and not play basketball. He said he could play basketball and other sports with his classmates at recess. He felt that some of his other classmates could get on another basketball team if they really wanted to. He said he could get on the CYO track team with his classmates this Spring after wrestling. He truly made this decision on his own. Was it the right one? I do not know for sure but I feel pretty good that we let him make it on his own. I guess we feel that he is now getting old enough to make such a decision.

martialartswrestler,

I can understand why you interpreted Rick Bowden's response as applying to the entire school year. However, this issue is dealt with in Article 3 of Rule 22, which reads as follows:
Therefore, students are free to participate in outside competition before they first participate in a practice session, and/or after their participation in the school program is complete.

On a personal note, this was an issue that I grappled with this year. My youngest son is currently wrestling in a middle school program, and has had minimal competition thus far. However, he is having a lot of fun; he is practicing five days/week; and he’s benefiting from a different coach’s perspective.

I wish that KSHSAA were willing to change their rules, and have done my best to get that done, but am very pessimistic on seeing any changes in the near future.

I have a question for anyone who can answer this factually: Can a student who wrestles for his school work-out with someone else from another school/team after his practice or during the weekend? I would surely think he could as long as he is not involved in a some kind of tournament. Maybe there is a rule regarding the number of hours he can practice for the school, but how can the state (if they do), impose restrictions on what an athlete does at home or away from school as long as the athlete is not competing in a tournament or coached by his school? Does this mean that I can't buy my son a football uniform and work-out with him during the season? What if we get together with guys from other teams and run some passing drills?? Will our school team have to forfeit their wins? I really don't think this was the intent of the state when they established the rules. I think they are trying to look-out for the kids, trying to protect them from over-zealous parents/coaches some of which who would make their kid practice 24/7. Maybe it's a good thing.....

Our son wrestled middle school last fall. I think they had about four duals, a leauge tournament and finished at a real nice tournament with Silver Lake hosting about 15 teams. It was good for Matt to experiance the team aspect of the sport. The season ended the week before the Kick-Off in Tulsa. The rule about outside competition didn't effect us. I have asked why rule 22 and the intent as it was explained to me was to keep the number of matches about even going into high school regionals. Wrestlers that could afford the time and expence of traveling to Oklahoma or Colorado would have a big advantage over wrestlers that couldn't afford the extra mat time. That's understandable, it doesn't mean we have to like it and it probably won't change.

I wanted to publicly thank Barry Disney and Mike Juby for their willingness to send me via email clarification on these rules. I also thank, Martialarts for posting the rule in part. The rule is as I thought, although there is some clarification and tips that were provided by others. Regarding the last post and the comment that "it doesn't mean we have to like it and it probably won't change." I especially agree with the comment that it doesn't mean we have to like it. I would hope though that the voices and efforts of wrestlers, their families, coaches, and fans would work to change it. I certainly believe in the ability to change the things that are wrong. When hearing about a person who had a child that was prevented from running a weekend road race in the community because their child ran cross country for the school we can all understand the craziness of this rule. I will also answer Martialarts question of if wrestling would be better off if the rule was changed. Despite the ways, (although appropriate as sportsfan02 points out), that some work around the rule the answer to that has to be an emphatic YES.

Is there any chance that a combined effort of leaders in all individual sports, rounding up grass roots support from coaches, parents and participants of each respective sport in the form of petitions, letters, etc. would have any effect? As someone pointed out earlier, this hinders scholarship opportunities for our kids. There could always be some kind of overriding rule, such as you may not miss a school event to compete in a club event, but could only participate when your school does not have a scheduled competition. I imagine there would be many wrestlers, runners, golfers, gymnasts, swimmers, etc. that would be behind this. Just a thought.