Here I go again bringing this up. Not exactly the same as the previous post but still worth talking about.

Does anyone know how Missouri and Kansas can be such polar opposites on this issue? Kansas has basically zero support for making Kids State for kids division wrestlers only, while Missouri only allows for an 8th grade maximum at Kids State. They also have January 1st as the age cut off.

I believe Missouri has it right on both issues and the results show it.

What results show it? I know it wasn't their Senior National teams showing last year...

THis birthday issue needs to die nobody is ever going to be happy with it... u prupose the Jan. 1 bday well I will tell u know....Im not complaining by any stretch of the imagination either just saying....but my sons 15th bday is Dec 31st so how would that be fair to him, no different than it is whith the Sept 1st day someone is going to be left out...He competed in AAU track and field for many years in grade school with the ABSOLUTE youngest bday ( they used Jan 1) and had he been born 8 hrs later would have been a 2 time National Champion. But hey he wasnt, he didnt and he is still able to talk about it, cant satisfy everyone so jsut take the rules we have and live with them.

Mr. Johnson:

I am curious why this is posted on the high school forum. Eighth graders do not participate in either the Kansas or Missouri high school state tournaments.

I am confused by the logic of this statement. All wrestlers competing at the USAW-Kansas Folkstyle State Tournament are "kids division wrestlers".

Some participants may be in high school, however a sixteen year old participant is still a "kid".

One of the differences between USA Wrestling Kansas and USA Wrestling Missouri Folkstyle State Tournaments is the age divisions. Missouri does not allow the fifteen and sixteen age division. Missouri mandates the maximum age of a participant is fifteen, only if the participant has not reached fifteen on, or before, January 1st of that tournament series year and if they are not in high school.

Missouri also does not allow any six and under participants in the tournament series.

I think the issue has been addressed already multiple times before, but I would say one major difference is the amount of kids from each state has a major bearing on how each state stands on the issue. I think the way Kansas does it's wrestling is just fine because it helps are kids (Freshman, Soph ect..) get more mat time which is good for the sport. It also keeps us from Red "shirting" our kids like other states.

Alex, I believe the long-term results of Freestyle and Greco show that Missouri has outperformed Kansas. I know that the 2002, 03, 04 and 05 Cadets have by a wide margin.

Jim, Thanks for the input. I am "taking the rules we have and living with them". We should never add, "Don't ever bring it up or discuss it again". Agreed?

Richard,

You are probably just the guy who can shine some light on my main question. It seems surprising to me that Missouri can have a majority view defining 8th graders and under as kids division wrestlers and Kansas would vote 65-2 against it. Do you have any data on how other states handle this issue as well as the Jan. 1st date?

You are right that this post would have been more appropriate on the Kids forum, but I had just read the post that was deleted about holding kids back and thought I would get some input from the High School forum. After all, we are talking about High School kids wrestling at High School State and Kids State. I know they are still kids, yet they are separated the entire year for a reason.

I really believe that these changes would benefit the kids in Kansas. I believe that it would increase participation in Freestyle and Greco styles and it would increase participation in High School wrestling.

Kansas kids wrestling has built an impressive foundation and has been noticed nationwide. The dedicated volunteers have poured their hearts into this great sport and I am proud to be a part of it and am thankful that my son has the opportunity to wrestle here. I appreciate this forum as a place to share ideas that would benefit the kids and look forward to hearing how other successful states treat these issues.

Eric Johnson
Renegades Wrestling Club

Kid's are defined by their age not their level of education.

Exactly the opposite according to the High School rules. There are kids tournaments that High School wrestlers are not allowed to wrestle in. This is ONLY due to their level of education. There is also a High School State tournament that 8th graders and under are not allowed to wrestle in ONLY because of their level of education. Your statement is true in general, but not when defining participation in sports.

Eric, Good discussion...made me really think. [yeah, yeah, I know, yes it did hurt too...lol]

Your question appears to be, “What's best for the kids?”

In the end, your proposal would allow more individual athletes to occupy room at the top, limiting each athlete (HS or kids) to ONE title at the "top layer". And yes, Missouri did beat Kansas this summer in some duals.

So “yes”, if you want to create more opportunity for a "State" title, then your proposal is a good one. Your proposal is, in essence, to achieve a more secular division of competitors.

Now ask yourself the state’s (Kansas) real question, “Is the goal (what’s best for the kid/athlete) to “win a State title” or “improve through competition”? And I ask, “Are we pursuing genuine improvement (mind, body, and soul) through the toughest of competition?”

Wrestlingmom makes great sense. It helps kids/athletes get more mat time, while curtailing the need to ‘red shirt’.

Sorry, but, this time I must respectfully disagree with your position.

Missouri improvements are due to the improved training (i.e., Purler Academies, Park Hill Club, Oak Park Club, etc.). The level of competition has risen during practices and transcended into the fabric of their collective teams.

Thanks to Roberson, Akin, Medinas, Erisman, Bunch, etc. etc. Kansas has no less reputation than other states. Where ever Kansas teams go, competitors don’t dismiss us, outside kids trade for our singlet, more tournaments invite us, and we have improved our placing each year…we are just as noticeable as Missouri, and maybe more so. College wrestling may not be here, but recruiting sure is.

The present system is not perfect, nor flawless. But, it does apply to everyone equally, and thus it’s fair. Moreover, it is better than any other we could offer. We must continue to raise (over time) the standard of competition as “high as possible”. To do otherwise would water-down our program, and take away from the competitor’s real accomplishment.

Let our athletes really grow. Only in an elevated scale, where the best are few enough to count, can the “average” be proud (and darn proud) to make the cut at average. We should not set up an artificial world for “many” more.

You are speaking of Freestyle/Greco I'm speaking folkstyle the style that is wrestled in college. I would take a Folkstyle State Champion over a Freestyle State Champion anyday for recruiting why? Because look at the Kansas FS State Tournament, not exactly as powerful with big names as the Folkstyle State Tournaments. Missouri has proved nothing as far as that goes, when it came down too it, Kansas beat Missouri at the BIG DANCE for Folkstyle wrestlers when it mattered.

As we are talking about High School here, and folkstyle this is very relevent. Here are the Senior National's results...

1 222 NY
2 210.5 OH
3 186 CA
4 180 NJ
5 148 IA
6 137 KS
7 122 MN
8 120.5 IL
9 118.5 MI
10 116 UT
11 101.5 WV
12 93.5 MO

There is a 43.5 point difference in the scores. That is quite a margin as far as Missouri trying to showcase their "best" talent....