Hey, just some info... a Div. III program is non-scholarship. Those kids aren't getting free tuition or anything paid for by wrestling for a D-III program. It is about the equilavent as wrestling for the K-State or KU wrestling clubs.

I've got to say that I disagree with pretty much everything gutwrench said in his original post. As I've noted on several forums in the past, going to a DI school is not the end all, be all, of collegiate sports. Supposedly the best athletes go to DI schools, that assumption is incorrect in its notion. DI althletes tend to be the best becasue the schools they go to can afford to put them on scholarships. It is this reason why most of the so called "best" althetes go DI, they get full ride scholarships to participate in an event they like and for some sports i.e football, basketball, and so on, this exposure leads to possible professional careers. However in our beautiful sport, the best athletes don't always have to go to DI schools. Kansas is no exception to this. There are many and I do mean MANY, Kansas wrestlers who are not wreslting in DI right now by choice, who would fair very well in DI if they were there. Their "wrestling style" has nothing to do with it. Any wrestler can mold their style to one that will bring success to them. We in the business like to call it "learning"

Look at Zach Roberson, he was untested in high school, went to Iowa State and won a National Championship under coach Douglas. Can you honestly tell me that he didn't change any part of his style during the 5 years he was up there? My point is placing blame on the coaches and officials of this state for the reason why Kansas doesn't have as many DI athletes as other states is for lack of better words foolish and dumb. If Kansas as a state had a DI program at KSU or KU I can assure you there would be tons of your so called DI athletes here. As it is we don't have one, and many wrestlers here despite the amount of success they have really don't want to travel out of state just so they can participate in a DI level program knowing that there really is nothing for them after they graduate for example a professinal career.

If you need proof of just how well the "Kansas Style" as you like to put it, works, just look at how Team Kansas fairs every year at the National High School Championships, we've finshed very high as a team several years now, and thats with a population several times less than many other states.

Here is what it really comes down to ....
Maybe Kansas dids don't want to wrestle DI, did you ever think about that?

From Colby, KANSAS alone in the last four years:

Matt Murray- Nebraska, NCAA Runner-up last year

Eric Luedke- Colby Comm. College, 2X Juco National Champion(looking at D1 offers as we speak)

Here is another point to ponder. kansas is almost a month and 1/2 behind the other states when it comes to starting the freestyle season. We are one of the few states that has the extended kid series in the high school level and in my opinion this hurts us immensely when it comes to developing our freestyle skills. I have been the proponent of cutting off the state usaw series at 8th grade. Starting our freestyle season in March and getting our summer teams going much earlier.

We have some real quality kids that should be competing at the FILA world cadet and junior trials as opposed to trying to win their multiple kids championships.

Having coached in other states where the D1 recruits are higher, California and Nebraska, the difference i see is the emphasis on freestyle not continuing the folkstyle series.
Nebraska and Iowa also have tons of small college programs for their kids to choose from.


But, still here is an example of the limited monies. Meneely, double all american, recieved a very very very small amount to go to Iowa out of Skutt High School. There is just not a big enough pie to divy up. title 9 has been choking out wrestling and will continue to do so until we can get some sort of reform

What is WSU's status as far as women to men athletics. They have Volleyball there but no football. One could probably get something started thre. I just looked at

http://www.wichita.edu/my/visitors/

and saw for every women's sport they have a male sport with the exception of volleyball. Maybe the Newman folk can talk to WSU supporters. K-State is to big on Football and If Gay-U I mean KU would drop there.....Football team? Then maybe KU. Wichita is ideal.

If we are ever going to get a D1 program in this state it will likely have to be here, unless Title IX is over-turned. I agree, WSU is a wonderful opportunity waiting on the wrestling community to take the bull by the horns.

I stand corrected by Nigel and NurseKS. Thank you for your enlightening commentary. To summarize:

1) Wrestlers at Juco, NAIA, Division III and II are just as talented as NCAA Division I.
2) Wrestling at DI level is over-rated and certainly shouldn't be put on a higher plane.
3)Coaches paid to win in conferences like Big XII and Big Ten can't get Kansas kids because as Nigel says "Our kids don't want to wrestle for those schools". (And why would they when we've got Neosho, Labette, Colby and Ft. Hayes right here? Those schools are clearly better choices for our kids than say Nebraska, Oklahoma State and Iowa State.)
3)Kansas has a superior stye of wrestling than say Ohio, Missouri, Oklahoma, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Florida and California.
Kansas fans want to see a good tight waste-near arm for a few minutes because that's about as exciting as it gets. Who needs good level changes and scrambles when you can lock up a bar arm and hold a wrist and ride the hips for two minutes.

Hey folks, maybe you've been out on the prairie too long. Apparenly, the incessant wind has driven you completely mad.

And another thing, it's wrong to have 4 classes in this little state. Try following the example that CA, NY, NJ and IN have set. One class would get our top kids more attention. As it stands it's watered down and hard for coaches to see.

"If you can't be taken down and you can't be rode, you can't lose."

High School State, the Wichita Classic, Newton T.O.C. and several other big area trnys could be used as promotional events for getting surrounding businesses to donate towards the cause.

Maybe you should move to Iowa! That is a good place for those that either don't like it here or can't make it here.

Sptsfan, I like Kansas which is why I'm challenging thought leaders like you to evolve.

Are you saying you want him to grow a tail?

I think DI's do look at Kansas guys, but then you got out of state tuition that kills some of these schools as well. For the most part I think the wrestlers turn down the "big dogs" not the other way around.

VS Vike Coach, I think you're missing the point.

As stated by someone else, if you look at D1 wrestlers in Iowa, many are from somewhere other than Iowa. Iowa State was mentioned.

Now look at college wrestling in general in Iowa. Take DIII. Because DIII doesn't give scholarships, you have a high number of in state wrestlers. Coincidentally, most DIII schools in Iowa have in state wrestlers (no out of state tuition). Another coincidence is that PA, IL, OH, and IA are four states that have close to 1/2 of all DIII wrestling schools. I'm guessing each of those states have high percentages of in state participants. Why?

Couple of reasons. 1st off, financial necessity. Why travel to another state to wrestle when in state tuition may be cheaper. Do people in Iowa love the state so much that they don't leave to pay out of state tuition? Of course not and I'm perfectly fine with that. 2nd reason has to deal with the college experience. Is the reason that the DIII athletes from Iowa are that much inferior that they can't cut it on the DI level or is it because they just want to get an education, enjoy college life, and wrestle because of their passion for the sport? I'm guessing both apply. I'm betting there are a few standouts in the DIII level that would have some sort of success at the DI level.

So, if that's true, why can't it be true for Kansas as well?

DI is the pinacle we all strive for when we're young, but when the time comes to make the decision, DI is not always the best option for us.

Prime example of a kid that is going to beat the odds - Lamar. Dad wrestled at Ft. Hays so you know where he's leaning. But Brady is a genius. I know. He was taking high school math classes while still in grade school (I student taught at Silver Lake). Now I'm not trying to slam on Lamar, but as it stands right now, I don't see him having an impact at the DI level immediately. Even if he doesn't at all, his academic performance will get him through no problem. He may never crack varsity, but he knows Nebraska is where he needs to be for his education. Brady is going places and I look forward to seeing him succeed.

Brady has aspirations beyond wrestling and Kansas and Nebraska will take him there. Trust me, I know that wrestling was SECOND in his thoughts.

And why can't it be the same for the other gentleman? Why can't it be that they have partials offered to them from the DI ranks and they opt to stay in Kansas because they can't afford the costs of a partial somewhere else?

There are some athletes that are out there that were similar to my situation. Mom and dad were flat broke. If it weren't for some of the parents in the Topeka Tornado club, I don't think I would have wrestled at all. When it came time to sign with a college, I chose Labette over a few other schools because it was close to home and if I was legitimately cut out for college wrestling, I wouldn't be losing a huge sum of money in the process. Plus if I did decide to wrestle on and it was going to cost me, I was only going to be paying for two years.

I'm betting that was the thought process of some of the kids that are DI talentwise, but just weren't sure if that was for them. The wrestlers mentioned weren't offered a DI scholarship? I don't know many, no lets say any, All Americans that were passed upon by DI schools. Are you saying those listed are the first? Please.....

By using your analogy of DI is the best, everything else is 2nd rate, that would mean that the DIII schools in Iowa are loaded with 2nd rate wrestlers from Iowa that couldn't cut it in the DI ranks. I refuse to believe it.

Wrestling is a vehicle for some to get where they want to go. Not everyone's destination is DI.

The out of state arguement used to be valid but it is becoming less of an issue for Big Ten and Big XII, etc...these fully funded programs get 9.9 scholarships and they can be used in-state or out-of-state. Many schools do not charge coaches the out-of-state rates.

Had an uncle once who was offered scholarship to KSU for baseball, but coach told him he would more than likely split time between someone already there. He went to a smaller college and played everyday.

The point is that maybe some of our wrestlers just want to have an impact from the word go at a smaller school and not wait 2 years to see varsity time at a big school.

After seeing Oak Park, MO wrestle I can agree that other states do have different styles but I don't necessarily think that is the reason Kansas doesn't have more D-I wrestlers.

I am not going to argue the fact that Kansas has a different style of wrestling but to blame the lack of D1 wrestlers on the style is in my opinion wrong.
Just a little information to think about
Oklahoma St. 12 of the 32 or 37.5% of the wrestlers are from Oklahoma
OU 10 of the 30 or 30% of the wrestlers are from Oklahoma
Nebraska 15 of the 39 or 38.5% wrestlers are from Nebraska
Iowa State 17 of the 27 or 63% of the wrestlers are from Iowa
Missouri 12 of the 31or 39% of the wrestlers are from Missouri
The rest of the teams roster are then made up of wrestlers from a variety of states which could lead us to argue that a teams roster is dominated by athletes from that state. So the lack of a D1 program in Kansas could be a reason for not as many D1 wrestlers.

Gutwrench you make some valid points but I also think that you are thinking of some things from the wrong angle.

I agree that most D1 wrestlers are better than most D2, D3, or Juco wrestlers.

As others have stated many student athletes may choose not to wrestle D1. There are many things that may affect their decision, academics, financial, family, etc. Some of the schools you mentioned may be a better fit than a D1 school, and still allow the kids a chance to wrestle.

I personally like to see a good low scoring match between two talented opponents. I don't mind it if someone is riding on top, as long as they are staying busy. But of course I might be in the minority hear beacause I also like a good 10-7 defensive football game to watch as well.

I might be crazy because I like the wind. In fact that is one of the things I miss most about Western Kansas in the summer time.

5)I don't think 1 class would do anything positive for our kids. Kansas's policy is to allow more kids to have success. Just think of how many great wrestlers from the other states never got a chance to go to state. I am not saying they are wrong or we are right, it is just a different philosophy.

Unless you get reversed to back and pinned!

Quite simply, it is silly to think the D1 schools are running around handing out scolarships. If a prospect is interested in attending a certain school, making the coaches and school aware is extremely important. There are literally hundreds of thousands of kids in high school athletics, recruiters cannot logistically screen them all, and one thing that is impossible to ascertain from a high school record, is the desire to wrestle in college. If a kid wants to go somewhere he needs to make a pest of himself, the coach needs to see him enough before signing time.

Also evidenced by the fact that the LCC Cardinals are national champs , and Neosho and Colby had strong showings in the National tournament, is a testament in itself to the caliber of Kansas wrestling. Scoffing at community college wrestling is ignorance,,Rulon Gardner was a JuCo wrestler, and he was pretty good, pretty **** good.

Kids need guidance in properly approaching colleges, coaches and parents need to get on the ball and Kansas will be well represented, style has nothing to do with it.

Gibby:

My point wasn't that D-I is the best -- it is percieved that way.

I love D-III wrestling (as well as everyother level). But D-I is the top level, it's the one that kids dream of doing and it gets the most notice. In Kansas, basketball kids grow up wanting to be Jayhawks and football kids grow up wanting to be Wildcats. Do they all make it? No, but that's what sucks them in.

There is nothing like that in Kansas. There is no bigtime D-I program to hang your hat on, the kind that will bring in 4,000 fans on a Friday night in January, including lots and lots of kids. Then they see that kind of wrestling, the coaches do and so do the referees.

When I moved back this season (and this is not meant to be derogitory) but the difference in style between seven years in Kansas and being back in Iowa was night and day. The Iowa kids (even mine) wrestled like college wrestlers, at least that style. Singles, doubles, stand-ups; few if any throws; no Granby system (or very little), can't turn them then cut them and take them down; wear them down.

Kansas isn't like that. It's a different style altogether. And

Whoa -- not sure why that happened....

As I was saying, Kansas isn't like that. It's a different style altogether. And that's not a bad thing, but one reason Kansas kids aren't that hot of commodities at the upper levels of college wrestling (which was the point of this post I thought) is because their college level fundementals aren't as good as kids from Iowa, Oklahoma, Ohio or places like that.

My kids go to Iowa meets and they want to wrestle like Paul Bradley, or they go to Iowa State meets and want to wrestle like the Paulson twins. Kansas wrestlers don't have that chance most of the time and it hurts; I said that the whole time I was down there. You need that role model, that (if you'll pardon the reference) Wayne Simien to look up to.

This not a Kansas vs. everyone else issue Gibby and it's not me bashing Kansas because I'm back in Iowa Richard (wherever you are!). I've been around this sport most of my life and had the honor to coach in both places. Kansas wrestling isn't wrong --- it's different. And if going D-I isn't a long-range goal, that cool. I greatly admire the devotion the Kansas wrestling community has for the sport and I hope that never changes.

Keep up the good work all!